Indian Air Force: News & Discussions (21 Viewers)

[Corvus Splendens]

Assuming Rafales can't use meteors

Weren't integrated yet allegedly. We bought a batch of 250 missiles.

 

[shade2]

Weren't integrated yet allegedly. We bought a batch of 250 missiles.

If this is conclusively proven it's a massive L

Egypt was blocked by ((( you can guess who's ))) influence from getting both the AIM-120 and Meteor for it's F-16 and Rafale respectively.

Egypt barred from receiving BVR missiles for F-16 and Rafale

While Egypt is set to get the go-ahead for the Eurofighter and American-made F-15 jets, it won't receive approval for the "Full Package" of long-range weaponry.

bulgarianmilitary.com

Does this "integration" need the manufactuer's support btw?


Once again assuming this is true it makes 0 sense to buy more Rafale, Meteor was it's #1 selling point as per all the dalals and un-paid shills online.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Weren't integrated yet allegedly. We bought a batch of 250 missiles.

A lot of Meteor customers don't have it operational apparently. Like just think about it, the French themselves for the first time test fired it from their Naval Rafales literally a few days or weeks back. You can imagine when will they get integrated with our Naval Rafales. Although Indian Navy won't have an issue with it as much as Air Force will due to active aerial combat threats which Navy doesn't have to face immediately.

German and Italians got their meteors integrated last year, Brazilians still haven't for their Gripen-E, and we can see the sorry state for Meteors being integrated on the British F-35s.

European MIC is very slow and lethargic, which is why it made sense for us to integrate our own stuff with them, but even that is delayed. I wonder what made them procure Rafale even with such serious lapses in capabilities which they tolerated for long while sabotaging additional Sukhoi Su-30 MKI procurement with which we can integrate everything of our own. With Astra Mk-3 SFDR missile, the USP of Rafales aka Meteor missiles will diminish.


At this point Su-57 makes much more sense as a stopgap to our own 5th gen platform, at least the Russians have been courteous enough to treat their clients as partners and not mere customers.

 

[username unkown]

Post in thread 'Indian Air Force: News & Discussions' https://defenceforumbharat.com/threads/indian-air-force-news-discussions.115/post-173719
Post in thread 'Indian Air Force: News & Discussions' https://defenceforumbharat.com/threads/indian-air-force-news-discussions.115/post-173725

Though TBH, that old su27 with Ukrainian airforce wouldn't have the sensors to detect the missile coming at significant distance.

The R-37M LRAAM Set the Record for Longest-Range Air-To-Air Kill in Ukraine: How Do NATO and the West Compare with Chinese and Russian Air-To-Air Technology? — London Politica

In late October a Ukrainian Sukhoi-27 Flanker, Soviet-era fighter, was shot down by a long-range air-to-air missile (LRAAM) – the R-37M. This is not the first Ukrainian aircraft to be shot down since Russia’s invasion commenced in February, but it is nevertheless a significant feat for the Russian A

londonpolitica.com

View: https://youtu.be/ZxAGVMTtQb0?si=ZMPRWGDkRnusnVk1

R 37 would be good upgrade to our arsenal putting pak awacs further behind
Its hypersonic speed i think still it will have very low chances against modern fighter jet as claimed in article that r 37 was fired from su57 well i don't think so how many felon do they really have not more than 20-30 most likely if caim is true it was fired from mig 31 still i am doubtfull but this missile will put enemy aircraft into defensive from longer range thus providing advantage

 

[randombully]

. I wonder what made them procure Rafale even with such serious lapses in capabilities

They didn't take that into account during procurement, neither were aware of "serious lapses" in integration of "meteor wunderwaffe".

which they tolerated for long

The super wunderwaffe we bought from frenchies, that caused major political controversy in the country is having delays integrating the meteor wunderwaffe missile, better not let it get Public.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Does this "integration" need the manufactuer's support btw?

Yes, we don't have source code.

A lot of Meteor customers don't have it operational apparently. Like just think about it, the French themselves for the first time test fired it from their Naval Rafales literally a few days or weeks back. You can imagine when will they get integrated with our Naval Rafales. Although Indian Navy won't have an issue with it as much as Air Force will due to active aerial combat threats which Navy doesn't have to face immediately.

European MIC is very slow and lethargic, which is why it made sense for us to integrate our own stuff with them, but even that is delayed. I wonder what made them procure Rafale even with such serious lapses in capabilities which they tolerated for long while sabotaging additional Sukhoi Su-30 MKI procurement with which we can integrate everything of our own. With Astra Mk-3 SFDR missile, the USP of Rafales aka Meteor missiles will diminish.


At this point Su-57 makes much more sense as a stopgap to our own 5th gen platform, at least the Russians have been courteous enough to treat their clients as partners and not mere customers.

French have no real threats. Meteor isn't even certified for Rafale-M's yet, they are still doing testfires. Which is why we were pressuring them for Astra integration, but they don't like it. This is 100% Dassault leaving us hanging. Can't use OEM's BVR, can't use our own BVR. And this is why MRFA can't get cleared. Forget repeat orders of Rafales, till the French finish Meteor integration. And we'll take this chance to sue for Astra integration, citing over-promising and under-delivering. Any Indian made Rafale will have to have Astra and SAAW integrated. Otherwise they can forget about MRFA.

I have been advocating for the Su-57 for awhile now. Not as a 5th gen stealth, but a heavy multirole option that can also replace the SU-30s in future. Total freedom to integrate whatever we want on it, even our own radar, mission computer, avionics, SPJ, everything. And with our own BVR program maturing, Rafale's limited USP only dwindles over the years.​

 

[officewarrior]

Can anyone explain the reason to buy rafale if meteors were never integrated in the first place?

What was the reason to waste tax payers money if the jet is toothless and no other ultra special ability like stealth is present, without meteor it is comparable to su30mki in many aspects .

Who is responsible for this circus when will we learn do we need another 1000 yrs of slavery from muslims to learn our lesson are we that cooked?

 

[shade2]

They didn't take that into account during procurement, neither were aware of "serious lapses" in integration of "meteor wunderwaffe".


The super wunderwaffe we bought from frenchies, that caused major political controversy in the country is having delays integrating the meteor wunderwaffe missile, better not let it get Public.

A lot of Meteor customers don't have it operational apparently. Like just think about it, the French themselves for the first time test fired it from their Naval Rafales literally a few days or weeks back. You can imagine when will they get integrated with our Naval Rafales. Although Indian Navy won't have an issue with it as much as Air Force will due to active aerial combat threats which Navy doesn't have to face immediately.

European MIC is very slow and lethargic, which is why it made sense for us to integrate our own stuff with them, but even that is delayed. I wonder what made them procure Rafale even with such serious lapses in capabilities which they tolerated for long while sabotaging additional Sukhoi Su-30 MKI procurement with which we can integrate everything of our own. With Astra Mk-3 SFDR missile, the USP of Rafales aka Meteor missiles will diminish.


At this point Su-57 makes much more sense as a stopgap to our own 5th gen platform, at least the Russians have been courteous enough to treat their clients as partners and not mere customers.

Next stop is dalali for F16/F15/F35 and AIM-120.

Obviously we won't be allowed to use that either,
maybe AIM-120 integration will also be delayed,
or there maybe india specific supply chain issues,
or maybe we will have to inform the US State Department before using the AIM120 as a part of the end use conditions

Yes, we don't have source code.

French have no real threats. Meteor isn't even certified for Rafale-M's yet, they are still doing testfires. Which is why we were pressuring them for Astra integration, but they don't like it. This is 100% Dassault leaving us hanging. Can't use OEM's BVR, can't use our own BVR. And this is why MRFA can't get cleared. Forget repeat orders of Rafales, till the French finish Meteor integration. And we'll take this chance to sue for Astra integration, citing over-promising and under-delivering. Any Indian made Rafale will have to have Astra and SAAW integrated. Otherwise they can forget about MRFA.

I have been advocating for the Su-57 for awhile now. Not as a 5th gen stealth, but a heavy multirole option that can also replace the SU-30s in future. Total freedom to integrate whatever we want on it, even our own radar, mission computer, avionics, SPJ, everything. And with our own BVR program maturing, Rafale's limited USP only dwindles over the years.​

Thanks for putting the pieces together, atleast now we know why MRFA isn't progressing
3 of the planes in that tout the same Meteor as their USP and it can't be used

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Can anyone explain the reason to buy rafale if meteors were never integrated in the first place?

What was the reason to waste tax payers money if the jet is toothless and no other ultra special ability like stealth is present, without meteor it is comparable to su30mki in many aspects .

Who is responsible for this circus

1. Frenchies promised to complete integration by the time deliveries started. They obcourse lied through their teeth.

2. Spectra was a massive game changer in 2000s through 2010s.

3. All parties are responsible.

 

[officewarrior]

1. Frenchies promised to complete integration by the time deliveries started. They obcourse lied through their teeth.

2. Spectra was a massive game changer in 2000s through 2010s.

3. All parties are responsible.

There should be serious reprucussions on persons responsible especially on indian side.
Something like chopping their heads in public.

 

[FalconSlayers]

They didn't take that into account during procurement, neither were aware of "serious lapses" in integration of "meteor wunderwaffe".


The super wunderwaffe we bought from frenchies, that caused major political controversy in the country is having delays integrating the meteor wunderwaffe missile, better not let it get Public.

Meteor isn't even a Wunderwaffe now, unironically. When it was unveilled, it actually was. But after delaying it's testing and integration for decades, it has become almost obsolete by being outranged and outclassed by other systems. Our own Astra Mk-3 SFDR is something that we will prefer using over Meteors now. It's now too little too late. Chinese PL-17/21 is something that can no longer be tackled with them. Which is why, we should honestly repurpose them meteors into some SAMAR like makeshift SAM system.

 

[redpanda]

A lot of Meteor customers don't have it operational apparently. Like just think about it, the French themselves for the first time test fired it from their Naval Rafales literally a few days or weeks back. You can imagine when will they get integrated with our Naval Rafales. Although Indian Navy won't have an issue with it as much as Air Force will due to active aerial combat threats which Navy doesn't have to face immediately.

German and Italians got their meteors integrated last year, Brazilians still haven't for their Gripen-E, and we can see the sorry state for Meteors being integrated on the British F-35s.

European MIC is very slow and lethargic, which is why it made sense for us to integrate our own stuff with them, but even that is delayed. I wonder what made them procure Rafale even with such serious lapses in capabilities which they tolerated for long while sabotaging additional Sukhoi Su-30 MKI procurement with which we can integrate everything of our own. With Astra Mk-3 SFDR missile, the USP of Rafales aka Meteor missiles will diminish.


At this point Su-57 makes much more sense as a stopgap to our own 5th gen platform, at least the Russians have been courteous enough to treat their clients as partners and not mere customers.

We probably thought they will give us source code or some API type stuff to integrate stuff on our own. As far as I remember both is kinda possible. But the French are not agreeing to that because then they will lose the money they could get from integration work.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

There should be serious reprucussions on persons responsible especially on indian side.
Something like chopping their heads in public.

Don't overreact. There were merits during the congress era to go for this Jet even with just Mica.

Alongside the F-22 and the F-15 it was the only other jet integrated with an AESA radar out of factory. It's avionics were a class apart from the freshly inducted Su-30MKI. So it was a great deal if Dassault kept it's word and finished Meteor integration in time. But even without Meteor it was still a great deal back in early 2010s. Our AESA radar project was a fledgling and even SPECTRA was pure witchcraft back then. It was a good choice have no doubt. Just the OEM screwed us with aftersales.

 

[shade2]

1. Frenchies promised to complete integration by the time deliveries started. They obcourse lied through their teeth.

2. Spectra was a massive game changer in 2000s through 2010s.

3. All parties are responsible.

Meteor isn't even a Wunderwaffe now, unironically. When it was unveilled, it actually was. But after delaying it's testing and integration for decades, it has become almost obsolete by being outranged and outclassed by other systems. Our own Astra Mk-3 SFDR is something that we will prefer using over Meteors now. It's now too little too late. Chinese PL-17/21 is something that can no longer be tackled with them. Which is why, we should honestly repurpose them meteors into some SAMAR like makeshift SAM system.

Everyone from PMO, MoD and ofc the users know about this from many years now ofc

Nobody bothered to quicken development of Astra mk2 and Astra mk3

Nobody bothered to place orders for more MKI since the French wunderwaffe plane is useless without it's BVRAAM


I am absolutely not surprised that the French are bending over so much with the fuselage and falcon 2000 and engine MRO plant now, all these news started appearing around or after Op Sindoor onleee, baguettes knew they'd be found out.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Everyone from PMO, MoD and ofc the users know about this from many years now ofc

Nobody bothered to quicken development of Astra mk2 and Astra mk3

Nobody bothered to place orders for more MKI since the French wunderwaffe plane is useless without it's BVRAAM


I am absolutely not surprised that the French are bending over so much with the fuselage and falcon 2000 and engine MRO plant now, all these news started appearing around or after Op Sindoor onleee, baguettes knew they'd be found out.

Blame should be on lack of funding to indigenous projects by both scamgress and BJPigs to the point we're left with no option other than either Russian systems or our own. Don't forget our scientists and engineers with very limited budgets and resources gave us an almost-usable afterburning turbofan engine. And even today instead of funding all testing infra and and equipment and R&D project for newer engines, and aircrafts, we're splurging billions on Rafales, Apaches, Predator drones and what not instead of building our own. It's as simple as that, imports give kickbacks, domestic products don't.

Even today TEDBF and Ghatak RPSA have no sanction, and Indian Navy will continue to be operating fewer than required fighter jets from it's carriers because it genuinely wants TEDBF to happen. They bought 26 Rafales when requirement was for 57 MRCBF to leave room for TEDBF once MiG-29K retire. Out of total need of 87 fighter jets, Navy will work with just 66. Shows how big of a mess this has been, and it's just the tip of the iceberg. Can't always blame Forces for this lethargy, rot is deep within the bureaucracy and political leadership.

 

[shade2]

Blame should be on lack of funding to indigenous projects by both scamgress and BJPigs to the point we're left with no option other than either Russian systems or our own. Don't forget our scientists and engineers with very limited budgets and resources gave us an almost-usable afterburning turbofan engine. And even today instead of funding all testing infra and and equipment and R&D project for newer engines, and aircrafts, we're splurging billions on Rafales, Apaches, Predator drones and what not instead of building our own. It's as simple as that, imports give kickbacks, domestic products don't.

Even today TEDBF and Ghatak RPSA have no sanction, and Indian Navy will continue to be operating fewer than required fighter jets from it's carriers because it genuinely wants TEDBF to happen. They bought 26 Rafales when requirement was for 57 MRCBF to leave room for TEDBF once MiG-29K retire. Out of total need of 87 fighter jets, Navy will work with just 66. Shows how big of a mess this has been, and it's just the tip of the iceberg. Can't always blame Forces for this lethargy, rot is deep within the bureaucracy and political leadership.

TEDBF is a dead project from the start saar, IAF doesn't want it and Admirals won't move without commonality, viz Mig29k and Rafale-M selection.

Baaki ka you are right, top to bottom everyone is a dalal and if they're not like our Leaderji they think arms purchases are a good way to appease Uncle Sam and are chindi for domestic developments.

Sometimes i do think it is just sabotage and not some simple dalali though.

 

[redpanda]

Blame should be on lack of funding to indigenous projects by both scamgress and BJPigs to the point we're left with no option other than either Russian systems or our own. Don't forget our scientists and engineers with very limited budgets and resources gave us an almost-usable afterburning turbofan engine. And even today instead of funding all testing infra and and equipment and R&D project for newer engines, and aircrafts, we're splurging billions on Rafales, Apaches, Predator drones and what not instead of building our own. It's as simple as that, imports give kickbacks, domestic products don't.

Even today TEDBF and Ghatak RPSA have no sanction, and Indian Navy will continue to be operating fewer than required fighter jets from it's carriers because it genuinely wants TEDBF to happen. They bought 26 Rafales when requirement was for 57 MRCBF to leave room for TEDBF once MiG-29K retire. Out of total need of 87 fighter jets, Navy will work with just 66. Shows how big of a mess this has been, and it's just the tip of the iceberg. Can't always blame Forces for this lethargy, rot is deep within the bureaucracy and political leadership.

I don't think they will sanction test infrastructure without something to test. They have to justify the usage of that particular infrastructure. Govt has sanctioned test beds for radars and other things tbh. But Kaveri is officially closed, so getting infrastructure for it is not possible. For that to happen they have revive Kaveri, show it to MoD and IAF. Then have to get nod from both then it will lead to sanction for Kaveri as whole and everything associated with it. And but rn fund request of those facilities is mostly associated with the 110 kn JV engine, till there is no partner selected. MoD won't sanction money for it which turn means no money for those facilities because nothing significant to test there. IAF can't request it either because the organisation which will use it has nothing to test there except a dead internal project. It's the process which is the problem. Our bureaucratic process is designed in that way.

If the deal with Saffran or RR gets finalised, then you will see GoI sanctioning money for those facilities as well. That's why they have left space in that ground testing facility in Bengaluru.

 

[shade2]

I haven't been this blackpilled for a long time over the state of the air force.

There is no hope for the future either, even selling the country to the US as a vassal will not mean much as they will just include us and Paki in their ((( allies ))) harem like Greece & Turkey, where neither of the two dare attack the other conventionally, except Turkey doesn't support terrorists against Greece.

TLDR we could get those AIM-120 wundermissiles but we won't be able to use them against the deserving country.

 

[redpanda]

I haven't been this blackpilled for a long time over the state of the air force.

There is no hope for the future either, even selling the country to the US as a vassal will not mean much as they will just include us and Paki in their ((( allies ))) harem like Greece & Turkey, where neither of the two dare attack the other conventionally, except Turkey doesn't support terrorists against Greece.

TLDR we could get those AIM-120 wundermissiles but we won't be able to use them against the deserving country.

You guys are being too much blackpilled. Go touch some grass duh. India has been at worst time. You guys forgetting we had nothing indigenous at all at one point in time. Atleast we have become self reliant in many things in last few decades. We used even import ammunition. So calm down. And don't think too negatively. Have patience things takes time to improve. Whether that is economy or defence. Imagine if Kalam & his friends had been blackpilled or founder of ISRO had been blackipilled what would have happened?

Tejas will fly and folks who are crying here will be laughing. Folks who are saying AMCA is dead and we will get F-35 will be shocked and then they will cry in happiness too. That's my bet.

 

[redpanda]

Life itself isn't easy. And things like these are complicated. Things that are out of our control. Folks who work on these things themselves don't have full control. Yet they work towards an end. And have made things that we see today. Indian defence as whole is in much better position than 20 years ago from a self reliance perspective. So why be pessimistic?