Indian Air Force: News & Discussions (34 Viewers)

[assassin162]

somebody was saying Rafale will become Mirage, if we dont buy this much Rafale. lol. Rafale is already Mirage and buying more is buying more liability and sunken cost.

Yahan UPSC ka taiyyari nahi chal raha hai. sunken cost badhane ka koi matlab nahi hai.

keep the liability limited.

 

[Azaad]

Saar, please explain then after May 7th why weren't Rafales again deployed to snipe PAF jets from our airspace with Meteor if it is integrated across the fleet?

How do you know the Rafales weren't deployed with or without those Meteors after 7th May ? Besides after 7th May where was the PAF ?

I agree that because of Baboon-produced ROE on the first day Rafales had A2G Hammer & SCALP payload but what about the remaining days?

That's a function of the equipment Rafales carry & has nothing to do with RoE. Rafales weren't tasked for escort duties or air to air engagement in the only air duel we had with PAF. They were tasked with the strike mission meaning air to ground mission. MKIs were the escort.

Once again how are you sure the Rafales never flew post 7th May & where was the PAF after 7th May ?

If they didn't use Rafale for A2A later on i'm inclined to believe the randombully answer that not all planes are integrated with Meteor.

Meteors are meant for HVA viz slow moving Refuellers & AWACS not fast moving FAs. So technically even if the Rafales were present & equipped with the Meteor that would be another ace for the IAF , the first being the S-400.

It's also why MRFA is delayed, Frenchies dragging their feet over meteor integration, implicitly that we have to buy more Rafale

And if Dassault was dragging its feet why would the IN sign a contract with DA ? Please note that this is the same IN which booted out Naval Group ( NG) from the Project 75I by incorporating technical specifications such that NG wasn't qualified.

If it's your contention - why did we go in for additional Scorpenes , the IN was extremely reluctant to do so . Their hand was forced due to no movement on the Project -75 I & our rapidly ageing submarine arm .

 

[randombully]

Once again how are you sure the Rafales never flew post 7th May & where was the PAF after 7th May ?

From what we know rafale did flew after that night, and allegedly, a rafale shot down a jf17 using mica.

 

[BON PLAN]

Chalo mu khol hi dete hai.
In rafale deal signed in 2016.
Deliveries began in 2019 and delivery of all 36 rafales was completed in July 2022.
According to the deal 35 out of 36 jets ordered would be rafale f3R standard and last 36th jet( which was also test bed of India specific enhancements for 2+years) will include all India specific enhancements(ISE).


So by July 2022, we had 35 rafale F3R and 1 rafale F3RI(ISE), the plan was then to upgrade those remaining 35 jets to ISE standard over time.

Now that last 36th rafale, can fire meteor, the meteor integration on it was done in 2021 during testing along with integration and testing of meteor on French airforce rafale, which declared the missile "combat-ready" with French airforce on March 4 2021.

So meteor integration on rest of 35 rafales was supposed to done along with their upgrade to ISE standard.

Now that's where the problem rises, there has been delay by French side on upgrading the rest of rafalse to ISE standard, some have been upgraded but lot of fleet is not upgraded to ISE standard even now, even though according to the plan by now most of our rafales should have been upgraded to ISE standard by now


So that's the meteor saga, and also why frenchies were becoming Dhanwan with fuselage local production in india and other things.

The Indian standard is F3R with some more specifics.
F3R is fully Meteor since years...
The indian specifics have nothing to do with Meteor.
So I see no reason to explain Meteor are not integrated on all the Indian Rafale.

I add that it was nearly official that with the first Rafale delivered to India, some Meteor taken from the french stock pile were also delivered, as a special request from Modi.

 

[BON PLAN]

Frenchies are trying to get more Rafale orders in exchange of expediting Meteor integration no doubt.

NO. It's totally false.

 

[BON PLAN]

Frenchies are trying to get more Rafale orders in exchange of expediting Meteor integration no doubt. And we're not giving up on Astra and SAAW integration either. There were 13 ISEs I believe.

1. Rafael HMDs
2. Souped up SPECTRA and RWR trained with local adversary data
3. High altitude cold start
4. Low band jammers
5. Meteor, SCALP and MICA all three were to be integrated together
6. RAM coating
7. Flight recorder with extended 10 hour endurance
8. Indigenous IFF
9. Longer range IRST
10. IAF standard Comm link and Data link
11. Modified cockpit displays
12. Spares and full MRO
13. Misc ground crew tools and stuff

There was also the integration of SPICE guided bomb. Hammer was, atleast at the beginning, just as a stop gap.

 

[jaijaganath]

somebody was saying Rafale will become Mirage, if we dont buy this much Rafale. lol. Rafale is already Mirage and buying more is buying more liability and sunken cost.

Yahan UPSC ka taiyyari nahi chal raha hai. sunken cost badhane ka koi matlab nahi hai.

keep the liability limited.

In what sense rafale has become liability
Testing and integration isn't something that takes that long
Just bcoz it was hit and crashed doesnt make it liability
Its a capable platform and will remain in upcoming decades with upgrades
UPSC walon ki nahi cost-effectiveness ki baat hai
What they do is chindigiri
In future it will come integrated with indigenous weapons, meteor and other things too like spice and rudram
If they didn't finish upgrades and all other stuffs then along with them even IAF should be held responsible
Why this was issue wasn't brought up to higher officials infact many of them within service didn't knew that integration isn't completed
Dassault is purely responsible for such cases but we can milk them in such situation

Getting another aircraft will not make any sense in terms of military
Hume nos chahiye zoo nahi

 

[truthsoldier]

View: https://x.com/theprayagtiwari/status/1940313252669661256?t=EQSZpdB3StxRsDr2x6lFAA&s=19

 

[randombully]

F3R is fully Meteor since years...

You see all individual F3Rs Don't become integrated with meteor, just because it's certified.
Once you have integrated/certified meteor with f3r, then the software needs to be uploaded to the mission computer of individual fighter jets to be able to fire it.

Now, It's not a relatively big deal to do & can be done standalone, but in this case software upload was supposed to be done along with upgradation to ISE standard, most of our rafales rolled off DA production line before meteor was integrated with f3R, so they don't have the software from factory.

Though IAF also didn't demand seprate software upload and flight to make the jets meteor capable while ISE continued on its own seprate delayed pace.

 

[Tumba]

I think we have Meteors integrated but why didnt we use it on first night must be due to ROE only.

After that we didnt even require as PAF kept atleast 200 off Indian border as they know they will be targeted so Meteor never saw any action

 

[randombully]

I think we have Meteors integrated but why didnt we use it on first night must be due to ROE only.

After that we didnt even require as PAF kept atleast 200 off Indian border as they know they will be targeted so Meteor never saw any action

Post in thread 'Indian Air Force: News & Discussions' https://defenceforumbharat.com/threads/indian-air-force-news-discussions.115/post-174360

 

[assassin162]

In what sense rafale has become liability
Testing and integration isn't something that takes that long
Just bcoz it was hit and crashed doesnt make it liability
Its a capable platform and will remain in upcoming decades with upgrades
UPSC walon ki nahi cost-effectiveness ki baat hai
What they do is chindigiri
In future it will come integrated with indigenous weapons, meteor and other things too like spice and rudram
If they didn't finish upgrades and all other stuffs then along with them even IAF should be held responsible
Why this was issue wasn't brought up to higher officials infact many of them within service didn't knew that integration isn't completed
Dassault is purely responsible for such cases but we can milk them in such situation

Getting another aircraft will not make any sense in terms of military
Hume nos chahiye zoo nahi

It has become Mirage in mirroring the Mirage saga - without proper BVR and when you get BVR finally,it is of no use. It is also on the same path as neither the integration of Indian platforms happened on that, neither it will happen on this.


also any further upgrades to Rafale will be similarly milked, when India would be self more than capable in varios techs.

 

[redpanda]

Thanks guys for these details.
It makes sense now.


What doesn't make sense is there is loud public RR by retireds, serving, dephense patrakars, babooze etc when HAL delays something including missile testing, when the wine-sipping gora does this there is not a peep



We need to negotiate with them to integrate
>Meteors
>Astra mk2
>Whichever Rudram missile is appropriate as an ARM, they are all 3 different missiles.
On existing Rafales first as a good-will guesture.

Then we can buy more of their planes

Yep all of this needs to clearly stated in those documents. And there should be penalties, if the french es don't adhere to it.

 

[redpanda]

In what sense rafale has become liability
Testing and integration isn't something that takes that long
Just bcoz it was hit and crashed doesnt make it liability
Its a capable platform and will remain in upcoming decades with upgrades
UPSC walon ki nahi cost-effectiveness ki baat hai
What they do is chindigiri
In future it will come integrated with indigenous weapons, meteor and other things too like spice and rudram
If they didn't finish upgrades and all other stuffs then along with them even IAF should be held responsible
Why this was issue wasn't brought up to higher officials infact many of them within service didn't knew that integration isn't completed
Dassault is purely responsible for such cases but we can milk them in such situation

Getting another aircraft will not make any sense in terms of military
Hume nos chahiye zoo nahi

I mean what option other than Rafale do we have? We obviously don't want to buy the murican jets. Euro fighter is a whole another mess. Gripen also has American involvement. So at the end we are stuck with the French. Rafale with ISE is the only option we have. And for that babus need to use whatever negotiation skills they have to make this possible. Because of this geopolitical scenario es also have leverage over us, so they try to milk us dry.

Tejas Mk2 doesn't really fullfill the role of Rafale at all. Even if it gets fastracked. It will be close to it, but it won't be as sophisticated as F5 Rafales.

 

[liberalredditor]

View: https://x.com/theprayagtiwari/status/1940313252669661256?t=EQSZpdB3StxRsDr2x6lFAA&s=19

republic of , absolute shameless scums in our country, those pigs literally did peak brutality on innocent hindus in their own country, and now they want aman ki bhasha and unbanning

 

[shade2]

I mean what option other than Rafale do we have? We obviously don't want to buy the murican jets. Euro fighter is a whole another mess. Gripen also has American involvement. So at the end we are stuck with the French. Rafale with ISE is the only option we have. And for that babus need to use whatever negotiation skills they have to make this possible.

They can always buy more Su30, it's a repeat order so no tender-tender bullshit
plus
give money, equipment talent whatever is necessary to get Astra mk2 and Gandiva into service.

The benefit to this over French maal is that we have total control on the platform and weaponry, no need to get fucked over by integration delays, delivery delays, total loot in name of integrating weaponry etc.

Obviously this is the common sense approach so won't be done.

 

[liberalredditor]

They can always buy more Su30

but are they buying??

 

[neelaslayer]

Lo bhai tourism promotion


View: https://x.com/KeralaTourism/status/1940308521746407856?t=721lPO1ideP8iFVmIo2vjg&s=19

 

[redpanda]

They can always buy more Su30, it's a repeat order so no tender-tender bullshit
plus
give money, equipment talent whatever is necessary to get Astra mk2 and Gandiva into service.

The benefit to this over French maal is that we have total control on the platform and weaponry, no need to get fucked over by integration delays, delivery delays, total loot in name of integrating weaponry etc.

Obviously this is the common sense approach so won't be done.

Issue with original Su-30 MKI is its getting outdated day by day for modern warfare. Today it is still holding up but we can't say the same in next 5-6 years. Even with all that upgrades, we can't really turn it into something comparable to European or American jets. For that we have to literally mess around with its airframe. Which is under Russian IP. There are certain things we can modify without any Russian involvement and certain other things that needs their involvement. So that's why IAF is kinda not interested in such a project. The shear complexity and cost of such a project of literally making a new Sukhoi Aircraft based upon Su-30 MKI.

Super Sukhoification is what they have chosen because it's the middle ground. When it will become reality time will tell. Even if we produce more Su-30 MKI HAL has limited facility so Tejas's production will get affected lmao. We literally using Su-30's facility for making Tejas Mk1A afterall. Building new production line takes time.

 

[Azaad]

They can always buy more Su30, it's a repeat order so no tender-tender bullshit
plus
give money, equipment talent whatever is necessary to get Astra mk2 and Gandiva into service.

The benefit to this over French maal is that we have total control on the platform and weaponry, no need to get fucked over by integration delays, delivery delays, total loot in name of integrating weaponry etc.

Obviously this is the common sense approach so won't be done.

OPEX of MKI is extremely high. It eats up most of IAF's OPEX budget. You want more MKIs ? Get MoD / GoI to assure IAF of higher budget provisions.

Which brings me to an important point. Fifth Generation FAs are by their very nature extremely expensive to maintain viz the F-35.

Check on the OPEX budget & T&Cs for operation of the F-35 in the US. GAO reports would be a good starting point. It's due to this reason LM doesn't advice more than ~ 80 hours/ year in training time , likely less than that . That's ~ 6.5 hours / month . Instead training on simulators are strongly recommended .

Attaching the operating comparisons between F-35 ( & by extension a J-20 ) as compared to the Rafale courtesy a French member Picdelamirand-Oil from Strat Front.

It's not stupid at all to use five J-20s to counter one Rafale (he didn't say that one Rafale could beat five J-20s), and I'll explain why. In the first case, the aircraft are on the ground, and in the second case, they are in flight. However, the Rafale is capable of generating many flight hours, which requires very efficient maintenance and a sufficient stock of spare parts at the aircraft's base. However, the Indians have purchased a ‘Performance Based Logistics’ contract from Dassault, which obliges Dassault to maintain an availability of at least 75%, with penalties if this performance is not achieved. Dassault's internal objective is to maintain an availability of 90% in order to have a safety margin in case of major problems with an aircraft.

The result is that the aircraft can fly a lot: for example, during the Finnish tender, Dassault committed to the Rafale being able to fly 1,000 hours per year on a regular basis and 350 hours per month in ‘surge’ mode. In comparison, an F-35 must go into surge mode to exceed 15 hours of flight time per month and is capped at around 20 hours when used by the Israelis in combat operations with priority global assistance for spare parts.

This is because the maintenance of the F-35 is highly complex, particularly with regard to the maintenance of the airframe's surface, which must remain stealthy. It is not known whether the complexity of the J-20's maintenance is comparable to that of the F-35, but it is certainly more complex than that of the Rafale.

So if China had F-35s, it would produce 15*12 = 180 hours per year compared to 1,000 hours for the Rafale, and it would therefore take 5.56 F-35s to counter one Rafale, and in ‘surge’ mode it would take 350/20 = 17.5 F-35s to counter one Rafale.

Well, it may be a little different with the J-20, but we have orders of magnitude that explain why the IAF commander's statement may be substantiated.

Now think of what it's going to be for us once the AMCA Mk-1 becomes production ready given the mentality of our tenth pass Dhotis & BA ( Hons ) in Eng Literature Suits .