Chinese Air Force

[rockdog]

I m not fan of Mao, but CCP selected Mao’s 130th birthday to launch them on purpose.

Some Maoists already sent pics and flowers.

Pretty bizarre to me.

 

[RedPhantom]

This is still a flying wing design right?

Can flying wings go supersonic? Is there a technical limitation or has one not been build yet?

 

[Ayan Barat]

We've done enough of "they've done that, we're yet to do this" but as of now no-one seems interested in discussing what exactly it'd bring to the table and how this would be a challenge for us.

• three engines...not a big deal, B-52s fly with eight engines. If anything it shows that Chinese jet engine still has a long way to catch-up before it matches American; strap two F135s and you'd get 380kN of max thrust. To match similar level of thrust they're using perhaps three WS-10s.
• three air intakes is also not a big deal because how else are you going to supply sufficient air-flow to three engines? Can't mount it underneath ventrally like F-16 because then it'd interfere would your Internal Weapons Bay...so obviously the only place left it top.
• not having tail is an impressive feat but not something extraordinary. We all kind of knew from past many years that anything coming after these current generation of 5th gen jets would be tailless. One, because now most engagement would happen in BVR so you don't need extreme maneuverability. Second, advanced FBW and flight computer can easily deal with the remaining degrees of maneuverability without tail surfaces.
End result, slight reduction in RCS.
• choice of two main intakes are interesting, because after using DSI on both J-20 and J-35 they're going back to F-22 type diamond intakes. Maybe trying to reduce the RCS as much as possible.
• just a big size wouldn't simply rule out it being a pure fighter and make it more of an attack aircraft because ultimately it depends on size Vs engine power.
• personly my theory is that generation differentiating traits are somthing that can't be simply added to previous generation by upgradation. Like what differentiates between a F-15's and F-22's generational gap is stealth. No matter how much you upgrade a F-15 you can't match F-22's. And using this theory I find it bit challenging to differentiating between 5th and 6th gen fighter. What exactly is something that defines a 6th gen fighter that can't be just added to a 5th gen fighter? Artificial Intelligence based co-pilot? Can be done in MiG-21s. Manned unmanned teaming? F-35s are already doing it with XQ-58. Optionally manned platform? Let me tell you about QF-16s. Adaptive Cycle Engines? Can be strapped to any fighter. Reduced RCS? F-22 already has pretty low RCS and at some point you hit the wall of diminishing returns in your efforts of RCS reduction.
So let's just ignore it being 6th gen fighter as we frankly don't even know what's 6th gen and simply assume it to be a bigger 5th fighter. If you ask me to draw an analogue then I'd say it's pretty much like the cancelled bomber version of F-22; the FB-22.

Now coming to the part where I think this new design really shines

This is kind of the Achilles heel of current stealth fighter, thier internal weapons bay are shallow, optimised for just 4-6 BVR-AAMS. In F-22 you can carry just 1000lbs bombs and SDBs other than AIM-120 as other munitions are not "optimized" enough to fit inside. Things improve a bit with F-35 as the IWB gets bit deeper but the limited magazine depth is still an issue.

Enters this

• if properly utilised then you can carry BVR-AAMs similar in numbers to 4th generation fighters
• you get option to add longer ranged, air to ground stand-off weapons. Combine it's reduced RCS with increased range of missile and your stand-off range improves drastically. Imagine a F-22 type fighter that's can seriously challenge your naval assets.

This is what I'm able to make out till now with whatever limited data we've

 

[darkflame]

Multiple Chinese milwatcher accounts have commented on it. Here are some possible preliminary specifications, based on details they've shared:

General Characteristics

Crew: 1 (pilot) or 2 (pilot, EW/UCAV specialist)

Length: ~25 meters

Wingspan: ~15 meters

Empty Weight: 25,000 kilograms

Maximum Takeoff Weight (MTOW): 55-60,000 kilograms

Internal Fuel Capacity: 20,000 kilograms

Shape: Tailless diamond wing configuration

Engines

Number: 3

Type: WS-15 (initially), advanced VCE (eventual)

Total Thrust: 54 tons (initially), 60-70 tons (eventual)

Performance

Maximum Speed: Mach 2.5+

Cruise Speed: Mach 1.5+ (initial), Mach 1.8+ (eventual)

Combat Range: Over 3,000 kilometers

Avionics and Electronics

Radar: At least 1 and possibly 2 AESA radars with 2,000 to 3,000 T/R modules

Other: CCA/UCAV control capabilities, advanced onboard EW/ELINT capabilities, network combat capabilities

Armament

Internal Weapons Bay: 10 tons of internal payload capacity

AAMs: 8-16 air-to-air missiles (e.g., PL-15, PL-21 or equivalent)

Standoff PGMs: 8 long-range stealth cruise missiles (ALK-98 or equivalent) or 4 hypersonic missiles

Based on the program schedule of the J-10 and J-20, we can expect this fighter to reach low-rate initial production sometime in 2031 and mass production in 2033 or 2034

 

[rockdog]

This is still a flying wing design right?

Can flying wings go supersonic? Is there a technical limitation or has one not been build yet?

No one knows, people are digging public papers from SAC and CAC all over the Internet.

You can try translation tools based on the design concept papers here.

 

[Anants]

We've done enough of "they've done that, we're yet to do this" but as of now no-one seems interested in discussing what exactly it'd bring to the table and how this would be a challenge for us.

• three engines...not a big deal, B-52s fly with eight engines. If anything it shows that Chinese jet engine still has a long way to catch-up before it matches American; strap two F135s and you'd get 380kN of max thrust. To match similar level of thrust they're using perhaps three WS-10s.
• three air intakes is also not a big deal because how else are you going to supply sufficient air-flow to three engines? Can't mount it underneath ventrally like F-16 because then it'd interfere would your Internal Weapons Bay...so obviously the only place left it top.
• not having tail is an impressive feat but not something extraordinary. We all kind of knew from past many years that anything coming after these current generation of 5th gen jets would be tailless. One, because now most engagement would happen in BVR so you don't need extreme maneuverability. Second, advanced FBW and flight computer can easily deal with the remaining degrees of maneuverability without tail surfaces.
End result, slight reduction in RCS.
• choice of two main intakes are interesting, because after using DSI on both J-20 and J-35 they're going back to F-22 type diamond intakes. Maybe trying to reduce the RCS as much as possible.
• just a big size wouldn't simply rule out it being a pure fighter and make it more of an attack aircraft because ultimately it depends on size Vs engine power.
• personly my theory is that generation differentiating traits are somthing that can't be simply added to previous generation by upgradation. Like what differentiates between a F-15's and F-22's generational gap is stealth. No matter how much you upgrade a F-15 you can't match F-22's. And using this theory I find it bit challenging to differentiating between 5th and 6th gen fighter. What exactly is something that defines a 6th gen fighter that can't be just added to a 5th gen fighter? Artificial Intelligence based co-pilot? Can be done in MiG-21s. Manned unmanned teaming? F-35s are already doing it with XQ-58. Optionally manned platform? Let me tell you about QF-16s. Adaptive Cycle Engines? Can be strapped to any fighter. Reduced RCS? F-22 already has pretty low RCS and at some point you hit the wall of diminishing returns in your efforts of RCS reduction.
So let's just ignore it being 6th gen fighter as we frankly don't even know what's 6th gen and simply assume it to be a bigger 5th fighter. If you ask me to draw an analogue then I'd say it's pretty much like the cancelled bomber version of F-22; the FB-22.

Now coming to the part where I think this new design really shines
View attachment 19689
This is kind of the Achilles heel of current stealth fighter, thier internal weapons bay are shallow, optimised for just 4-6 BVR-AAMS. In F-22 you can carry just 1000lbs bombs and SDBs other than AIM-120 as other munitions are not "optimized" enough to fit inside. Things improve a bit with F-35 as the IWB gets bit deeper but the limited magazine depth is still an issue.

Enters this
View attachment 19690
• if properly utilised then you can carry BVR-AAMs similar in numbers to 4th generation fighters
• you get option to add longer ranged, air to ground stand-off weapons. Combine it's reduced RCS with increased range of missile and your stand-off range improves drastically. Imagine a F-22 type fighter that's can seriously challenge your naval assets.

This is what I'm able to make out till now with whatever limited data we've

Top intake has DSI still. Is it Chinese A12/SR71 (kind of role)? But Third Engine may be placeholder for combine cycle DMRJ engine for future?

 

[Ayan Barat]

Top intake has DSI still.

Yeah

But Third Engine may be placeholder for combine cycle DMRJ engine for future?

But as soon as you'd introduce a ramjet in the equation you'd need a bigger, traditional intake in top; that kind of tiny DSI would suffocate a ramjet.

Is it Chinese A12/SR71 (kind of role)?

Naaah...I would stick with my FB-22 theory.

 

[pramodkumar.ca]

Guys don't you know what shall be our solution by govt? Media shall create more hype about Chinese Dosa. Indian airforce high level committee shall say: Saar we found solution and antidote. It shall be : order more more Rafael- the French crepe. So that IAF gets khush for 1 year, ADA gets slow cooked for next 10 years, Govt pats it's back till next GE27.

you cannot match China in terms of capability to capability them you have approach problem with what has China done to US in last 20 years - first invest and keep investing in domestic industry and alternative pick out tech from outside to undermine the strength of your opponent - pick limited number of SU57 and Rafael in another batch of 2 Sqds and keep the AMCA on fast track , these desi corrupt babus in DRDO and HAL not reliable - pick PVt industry partners

 

[Ayan Barat]

Congrats @Corvus Splendens , it looks like you might be right.

Just when you think the day can't get any worse, it gets worst. Apparantly both CAC and SAC has unveiled their versions of "6th gen" fighter today.
Freaking two stealth fighter in a single day


View: https://x.com/_ConflictsWatch/status/1872304549874298901?s=19

Take a bow China, take a bow
Wasn't aware of your game

 

[Corvus Splendens]

• just a big size wouldn't simply rule out it being a pure fighter and make it more of an attack aircraft because ultimately it depends on size Vs engine power.

More or less the same role as this, but sneaky

Enters this
View attachment 19690

That bay seems big enough to carry a YJ-21 with a cut down booster section.

Congrats @Corvus Splendens , it looks like you might be right.

Just when you think the day can't get any worse, it gets worst. Apparantly both CAC and SAC has unveiled their versions of "6th gen" fighter today.
Freaking two stealth fighter in a single day
View attachment 19704

View: https://x.com/_ConflictsWatch/status/1872304549874298901?s=19

Take a bow China, take a bow
Wasn't aware of your game

Yea seen this video earlier.

 

[Ayan Barat]

That bay seems big enough to carry a YJ-21 with a cut down booster section.

Even if not YJ-21 then YJ-12s for sure

Chinese BrahMos-NG before BrahMos-NG
Definitely going to be a big headache for our naval assets given the increased range of this plane

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Even if not YJ-21 then YJ-12s for sure
View attachment 19710
Chinese BrahMos-NG before BrahMos-NG
Definitely going to be a big headache for our naval assets given the increased range of this plane

If they can fold the wings, the lifts on the Fujian are wide enough. They can strike Okinawa with this thing taking off from mainland and refueling once mid air.


This thing could take off from Kunming, fly undetected through Burmese airspace and target anything of interest in Eastern India. A sortie of J-20s from Nyngchi can easily cover it's retreat.

 

[Anants]

If they can fold the wings, the lifts on the Fujian are wide enough. They can strike Okinawa with this thing taking off from mainland and refueling once mid air.
View attachment 19713View attachment 19714
View attachment 19715
This thing could take off from Kunming, fly undetected through Burmese airspace and target anything of interest in Eastern India. A sortie of J-20s from Nyngchi can easily cover it's retreat.

But bhaiya why need 3 engines? Fuel needed for 3 engines it self justifies large body. I think it may have same range, more speed and fuel volume as Su 34 at best.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

The Su-57 is pure catfish and will get slapped in a peer to peer engagement with a J-20B. Forget these new birds.

Do Russians even have a a2a missile for su57, either way against j20 su57 has no chance, not only j20 has a lower rcs, it also probably have a better radar, chinkis also have devloped better a2a missiles then russia, su57 will just get bullied by j20.

What does this metaphor "catfish" mean here? What do Russians have to say like what RCS are they quoting? In BVR, PL-15 Vs R-77M may have equal opportunity but the Su-57 has side radar & L-band radar, which J-20 diagrams don't indicate.
In WVR, Su-57's DIRCM woud give advantage & in gunfight the Su-57 with its TVC & Levcons would kill J-20 most of the times or every time.

Making a dorito shaped jet doesn't automatically make it 6th gen, just saying.
What it looks like, its mostly a stealth bomber concept. I saw a twitter post saying it is manned/unmanned bomber concept.

The notional NGAD is very identical in shape & size.

Still this seems to be 5th gen only. There is no clear definition about 6th gen. Flying wing stealth bomber has been flying since 90s. Even our Ghatak will be FW design.
Using third auxiliary also tells that for all it's glitter China doesn't seem to have mere 100kN dry thrust low bypass engine yet.
But design is smart. It plans to reach within 500-1000km to the target using two main engines, and then probably use the third one to generate auxiliary power for EW suite to fly through a defended airspace.

I'm not blind supporter of any country but in any industrial domain, civil or military, the leader R&D nations dictates the characteristics & scale/version. 5gen was defined in 1980s, made in 1990s, refined/MLUed in 2000s onwards. Its primary focus was stealth & sensor fusion. W.r.t. secondary features like HMDS, Supercruise, etc it is a grey area.
Similarly 6gen is defined but there can be grey areas.
I'm sharing a brief table i made for thread (Global 6th Generation Fighter Aircraft Projects)

This table can be refined further.
So time will tell soon enough where these Chines jets fit.

> This jet is not a Flying Wing or Blended Wing Body at all. It just has cropped-diamond wings.
> The 3rd intake could be regular engine, a Ramjet prototype, a hybrid prototype. If regular engine means they don't have a new powerful engine yet but they don't wan't to wait for R&D on other features.
The extra power can be used EW &/or DEW. But some missiles already got active/passive switching & home-on-jamming modes. USA has tested pod lasers but if China has or not, time will tell, apparently yes within 5/10yrs, as we are also working on it.

you cannot match China in terms of capability to capability them you have approach problem with what has China done to US in last 20 years - first invest and keep investing in domestic industry and alternative pick out tech from outside to undermine the strength of your opponent - pick limited number of SU57 and Rafael in another batch of 2 Sqds and keep the AMCA on fast track , these desi corrupt babus in DRDO and HAL not reliable - pick PVt industry partners

Private firms are coming up, but they should be given sub-systems only, not complete project. They have own challenges of profit, secrecy, security, corruption, etc.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Some drawing & CADs of this new jet:





Russians are trying to estimate it:

 

[E-195]

This is still a flying wing design right?

Can flying wings go supersonic? Is there a technical limitation or has one not been build yet?

any thing can fly supersonic, but somethings fly better than others.

Ideally the best shape is Concord or SR-71 or X-15.

A flying wing will have troubles controlling its longitudinal and yaw stability

 

[vampyrbladez]

Some drawing & CADs of this new jet:
View attachment 19716
View attachment 19717
View attachment 19718
View attachment 19719

Russians are trying to estimate it:

View attachment 19720

This design reminds me of an F-117 style fighter bomber with greater range, speed and payload.

The speed would be Mach 2.5+ and have a payload of around 15000-20000 pounds.

Engine inlets are placed on the upper side of the fuselage this maximizing stealth.

Interestingly, the Northrop Grumman NGAD prototype also had a similar inlet and body design.

 

[rockdog]

SAC 6th Gen, from some old exhibition board.

 

[rockdog]

Mr Gaoshan, famous military CG maker, spent whole nite for this:

 

[rockdog]

076 is on launch today, since it has Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS), the SAC 6th Gen would be also take off from it. SAC made J15T and J35C for navy.