Indian Army Armored Vehicles

[Ayan Barat]

Can Mahindra ASLV swim.

Fair point.

But I guess bolting two props and adding few O-rings in the rear won't be that big of an issue if we seriously pursue this.

Also it's armour protection is too low for such combat scenarios where one can face 105-155 shells or 20-30mm etc equipped IFV.

Exactly, that's what my point was

The doomed military onion...

The Zorawar would surpass ALSV only the last "Don't be killed". Because in both "Don't be acquired" and "Don't be hit" an ALSV can easily use its smaller size and high speed to beat Zorawar.

Now coming to "Don't be penetrated" or as you said, low armour protection.
> 105mm APFSDS; more than 200mm. So K-Kill on both.
> 30mm APFSDS; almost 50mm. So K-Kill for ALSV and M-Kill for Zorawar.
BUT...if those are really hull ammo storage then can also end up being K-Kill for the Zorawar too.

You can't add "proper MBT" armour. And if you can't add that then whatever you add will just change the degree to which the crew is seriously injured. That's it.

This is very much the same as an EOD technician who wears multiple layers of bomb suit while dealing with a 5kg IED but prefers just t-shirt if it's a 500kg UXO.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Your argument devolves into whats better at anti tank - a gun or missiles.

Yes Sir.

In my opinion it's better to have a small but very fast platform to deal with tanks and a slower IFV for everything other than it; instead of a single tank that's supposed to be jack of all trades.

Also in my hypothetical you get 8 troops in the same attack package in case you wanna consolidate your gains.

1. tanks do not operate alone, so when youre saying 1 tank or 4 ATGM carrying ASLVs, it doesnt compute.
At the minimum its a platoon of 4 tanks, but 99% of the time, the smallest unit of tanks to be deployed is a company of 16 tanks.

But what if now the platoon is 2x ALSVs and 2x WhAPs instead of 4x Zorawars?

As a con, you'll lose the guns and slightly on the armours.
But as pro, you'll now have speed, longer range, 16x infantrymen and perhaps most important...limited anti-air capabilities with those WhAP's auto-cannon.

2. Gun armed tanks are better at anti tank duties - APFSDS rounds are cheaper than missiles, are faster and harded to beat than ATGMs, and tanks carry far more rounds.

So first the magazine depth issue.
In current configuration the Cockerill 3105 would be having 16 rounds in auto-loader. Which is exactly the same as my ATGM totting ALSVs.

As for the cost issue, yup, I totally agree with you.

But as for faster and harder to beat...you also have a flip side. Main gun is slower and harder to shoot because no matter how good the stabilization system is you'll still need to come out of cover, aim for a vital part and shoot. As opposed to an ATGM that you can just blindly lob from cover in LOAL mode

3. The armour, survivability of a light tank platoon fighting from a prepared keyhole position surpasses ATGM carrying ASLVs by leagues.

I've already mentioned about armour in my previous post.

As for offensive capabilities; even a small Javelin would surpass the range and armour penetration of a 105mm APFSDS from a fixed position.

But perhaps most importantly, as soon as you bring in prepared position in the equation the adversary would bring in FPV drones. And I'm not talking about dedicated NLOS missiles that PLA has in abundance, just COTS drones.

4. The Zorawar carries 2 Loitering Munitions with reloads just in case it has to deal with a non LOS or an aerial threat.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as of now I've not seen any source about space for reloads in both Cockerill 3105 and Zorawar.

Also if it's there then it won't be an under-armour reload.

PS. I'm not talking about replacing Zorawars with ALSVs; I'm talking about completely changing our war fighting doctrine in that specific sector. Something like US did with Strykers Brigade Combat Teams.

 

[Nutcracker]

Fair point.

But I guess bolting two props and adding few O-rings in the rear won't be that big of an issue if we seriously pursue this.

Exactly, that's what my point was

The doomed military onion...
View attachment 10799
The Zorawar would surpass ALSV only the last "Don't be killed". Because in both "Don't be acquired" and "Don't be hit" an ALSV can easily use its smaller size and high speed to beat Zorawar.

Now coming to "Don't be penetrated" or as you said, low armour protection.
> 105mm APFSDS; more than 200mm. So K-Kill on both.
> 30mm APFSDS; almost 50mm. So K-Kill for ALSV and M-Kill for Zorawar.
BUT...if those are really hull ammo storage then can also end up being K-Kill for the Zorawar too.

You can't add "proper MBT" armour. And if you can't add that then whatever you add will just change the degree to which the crew is seriously injured. That's it.

This is very much the same as an EOD technician who wears multiple layers of bomb suit while dealing with a 5kg IED but prefers just t-shirt if it's a 500kg UXO.

Zorawar will get ERA, wouldn't it. I'm sure no matter how incompetent we believe army thinktanks are, there might be some essential case for Zorawar LT.

 

[Binayak95]

Yes Sir.

In my opinion it's better to have a small but very fast platform to deal with tanks and a slower IFV for everything other than it; instead of a single tank that's supposed to be jack of all trades.

Also in my hypothetical you get 8 troops in the same attack package in case you wanna consolidate your gains.

But what if now the platoon is 2x ALSVs and 2x WhAPs instead of 4x Zorawars?

As a con, you'll lose the guns and slightly on the armours.
But as pro, you'll now have speed, longer range, 16x infantrymen and perhaps most important...limited anti-air capabilities with those WhAP's auto-cannon.

So first the magazine depth issue.
In current configuration the Cockerill 3105 would be having 16 rounds in auto-loader. Which is exactly the same as my ATGM totting ALSVs.

As for the cost issue, yup, I totally agree with you.

But as for faster and harder to beat...you also have a flip side. Main gun is slower and harder to shoot because no matter how good the stabilization system is you'll still need to come out of cover, aim for a vital part and shoot. As opposed to an ATGM that you can just blindly lob from cover in LOAL mode

I've already mentioned about armour in my previous post.

As for offensive capabilities; even a small Javelin would surpass the range and armour penetration of a 105mm APFSDS from a fixed position.

But perhaps most importantly, as soon as you bring in prepared position in the equation the adversary would bring in FPV drones. And I'm not talking about dedicated NLOS missiles that PLA has in abundance, just COTS drones.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as of now I've not seen any source about space for reloads in both Cockerill 3105 and Zorawar.

Also if it's there then it won't be an under-armour reload.

PS. I'm not talking about replacing Zorawars with ALSVs; I'm talking about completely changing our war fighting doctrine in that specific sector. Something like US did with Strykers Brigade Combat Teams.

I agree with your premise and its an interesting conundrum - think of this - in a combined armoured brigade along the lines of the Stryker BCT - where and how do you place your ATGM carriers doctrinally?


Say you have 30mm autocannon equipped IFVs - whether wheeled or tracked, a 105mm gun platform, infantry and ATGMs.

You have effective combat ranges from 300m all the way out to 10+ km - so where do you place what ?

ATGMs behind light tanks, IFVs up front for close infantry support - but then that puts a penalty on the time it takes for a typical F&F missile to reach the target .

 

[Unknowncommando]

DRC

 

[Mr.Evil]

If we are planning to buy an “APC” from The US why don’t we go for BAE Systems New ACV getting inducted by the US Marine Corps?
It has good protection(50Cal with bolted armour plates)
It can have multiple variants
It can carry upto 13 troops+3 crew
& It is Amphibious so it can also replace our old amphibious vehicles and setup a plant here in India for production.
Which is way better than the Stryker.



View: https://youtu.be/VQ8XmS5dECw?si=6cFQ3Enh4Nyu6yiY

 

[Ayan Barat]

If we are planning to buy...from The US why don’t we go for....

Ohh...so we are playing this game.

But that thing is again more or less just another WhAP; perhaps even more than Stryker. So even after a thousand Stryker there might be a slim chance for WhAP to satisfy the amphibious requirements, but if this thing comes then it's a death nail for WhAP.
Let me propose something else.

Why don't we go for the license production of HEMTT/PLS series trucks?
Our logistics are in shambles, we don't have armoured cabs and even if we have then it's fixed to a new vehicle platform instead of being an add-on for the whole fleet, there isn't a proven indigenous platform like it, this thing is truly modular and can be reconfigured into anything from a TEL to tank trailer, is C-130 capable...and perhaps the most important; lobbiest would get more bucks for licence production of a lakh or so trucks as compared to a couple hundred of ICVs.

 

[shade2]

If we are planning to buy an “APC” from The US why don’t we go for BAE Systems New ACV getting inducted by the US Marine Corps?
It has good protection(50Cal with bolted armour plates)
It can have multiple variants
It can carry upto 13 troops+3 crew
& It is Amphibious so it can also replace our old amphibious vehicles and setup a plant here in India for production.
Which is way better than the Stryker.
View attachment 10934
View attachment 10935

View: https://youtu.be/VQ8XmS5dECw?si=6cFQ3Enh4Nyu6yiY

This is a bribe purchase.
The bribe portion means we are supposed to buy the old, outdated shit, not the fancy new shit, that's reserved for "allies".
The bribe also means that we get only screwdriver giri, no actual ToT.

It is also why they are offering us the F16.

Perhaps if we don't buy the Stryker, those navy GE gas turbines, the Tejas GE F404 engine and that Cummins engine for Zorawar all suddenly get (((DeLaYs))) or perhaps some hooman raites drama happens and their export clearances to India are revoked.

 

[Mr.Evil]

Ohh...so we are playing this game.

But that thing is again more or less just another WhAP; perhaps even more than Stryker. So even after a thousand Stryker there might be a slim chance for WhAP to satisfy the amphibious requirements, but if this thing comes then it's a death nail for WhAP.
Let me propose something else.

Why don't we go for the license production of HEMTT/PLS series trucks?
Our logistics are in shambles, we don't have armoured cabs and even if we have then it's fixed to a new vehicle platform instead of being an add-on for the whole fleet, there isn't a proven indigenous platform like it, this thing is truly modular and can be reconfigured into anything from a TEL to tank trailer, is C-130 capable...and perhaps the most important; lobbiest would get more bucks for licence production of a lakh or so trucks as compared to a couple hundred of ICVs.
View attachment 10947
View attachment 10948
View attachment 10949

Bro if Whap comes i want nothing more but iam asking IF we are going for stryker why waste money if you are buying something atleast buy something good.

 

[Hari Sud]

Good question…… Why Stryker?

Comparatively the TATA product is more versatile than Stryker. Then why Stryker?

Does anybody has answer to this perplexing question?

Ask Rahul Gandhi and he will say BJP corruption. What is the truth?

 

[Ayan Barat]

Good question…… Why Stryker?

Good answer...... Why Drishti-10?
Gooder answer...... Why 6 Apaches?
Goodest answer...... Why AK-203?

Spoiler

Jizyah and lobbying

 

[shade2]

Good question…… Why Stryker?

Comparatively the TATA product is more versatile than Stryker. Then why Stryker?

Does anybody has answer to this perplexing question?

Ask Rahul Gandhi and he will say BJP corruption. What is the truth?

It's a hafta to the US so that they don't bully us with sanctions and provide us the engines we have ordered for Tejas, Zorawar and assorted warships.

We have been very fasicst hindu nationalist islamophobic casteist etc recently by buying Rafale-M over F-18 and by not buying the F-16s for the MRFA program etc, so this bribe is the only way to appease the Thekedar of Freedom and Democracy

Ofc, Uncle has asked this very specific purchase to smother whAp in the cradle and the Govt acquiesced so here we are.

If you notice the Free & Democratic items in our inventory across the 3 services they are mostly useless or unnecessary like those Predators, 6 Apaches, INS Jalashwa( ex USS Trenton, )
There are a few types that are useful like those M777 Howitzers and P8I Poseidon.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Ohh...so we are playing this game.

But that thing is again more or less just another WhAP; perhaps even more than Stryker. So even after a thousand Stryker there might be a slim chance for WhAP to satisfy the amphibious requirements, but if this thing comes then it's a death nail for WhAP.
Let me propose something else.

Why don't we go for the license production of HEMTT/PLS series trucks?
Our logistics are in shambles, we don't have armoured cabs and even if we have then it's fixed to a new vehicle platform instead of being an add-on for the whole fleet, there isn't a proven indigenous platform like it, this thing is truly modular and can be reconfigured into anything from a TEL to tank trailer, is C-130 capable...and perhaps the most important; lobbiest would get more bucks for licence production of a lakh or so trucks as compared to a couple hundred of ICVs.
View attachment 10947
View attachment 10948
View attachment 10949

It is basically an Tractor with removable body. It is not something difficult to achieve. Even the AL FAT 6x6 can be modified to the needs of the force.

Good example is AL Stallion MK IV. We are already having wide variety of variants.

 

[Ayan Barat]

I mentioned few specific points to support my proposal and you answered none of them. Just an example

Good example is AL Stallion MK IV. We are already having wide variety of variants.

Is Stallion C-130 capable?
Are multiple armour kits available for it that you can add according to threats?

And these are just the broad requirements, I'm not talking about smaller stuffs like crashworthy seats or transmission systems.

 

[darkindie]

Facility for manufacturing of f21 was finalized between tata and lockheed and still f21 was not imported. I don't know why people keep banging their head over stryker

I mentioned few specific points to support my proposal and you answered none of them. Just an example

Is Stallion C-130 capable?
Are multiple armour kits available for it that you can add according to threats?

And these are just the broad requirements, I'm not talking about smaller stuffs like crashworthy seats or transmission systems.

In what scenario will a c130 capable stallion capability will be required?

 

[Ayan Barat]

In what scenario will a c130 capable stallion capability will be required?

Maybe to do something like this...

...or heck even this...

...in a battlefield that resembles this...


I don't know, I'm bit retarded
You tell me

 

[shade2]

Facility for manufacturing of f21 was finalized between tata and lockheed and still f21 was not imported. I don't know why people keep banging their head over stryker

Ummeed pe duniya kaayam hai etc...

LM still shills for their Cold War vintage maal that Padosi Mulq already has

https://www.financialexpress.com/business/defence-f-21-multi-role-fighternbsplockheed-martin-aeronautics-calls-itnbspforce-multiplier-for-indian-airforce-3454708/

Burgers also will insist that all the boom-booms that go on this be of US make, no Indian missiles or bombs allowed.

The day the GoI okays this F-16 scam rebadge for procurement is the day Independent Bharat dies and we become yet another raand in Sultan Amrika's harem.

 

[Zoid Raptor]

Ofc, Uncle has asked this very specific purchase to smother whAp in the cradle and the Govt acquiesced so here we are.

Why not order both? The overall requirement of a similar class vehicle is no less than a 1000 while the Stryker deal articles mentioned ~500 to be procured

While Stryker is clearly to appease Uncle Sam, there's still a ton of room for WhAP

 

[darkindie]

Maybe to do something like this...
View attachment 10980
...or heck even this...
View attachment 10981
...in a battlefield that resembles this...
View attachment 10982

I don't know, I'm bit retarded
You tell me

I was specifically talking about logistics/load carrying version of stallion. Again why would we need a c130 capable stallion when it can reach through road and rail within hours. You are posting photos of US military who operate globally due to which they HAVE(majboori) to significantly rely on logistics network supported by aviation. For both our war fighting sectors(which are on our LAND border) we can move our stallions more effectively(more volume), efficiently( less cost) than transporting through jets.

 

[darkindie]

It's a hafta to the US so that they don't bully us with sanctions and provide us the engines we have ordered for Tejas, Zorawar and assorted warships.

We have been very fasicst hindu nationalist islamophobic casteist etc recently by buying Rafale-M over F-18 and by not buying the F-16s for the MRFA program etc, so this bribe is the only way to appease the Thekedar of Freedom and Democracy

Ofc, Uncle has asked this very specific purchase to smother whAp in the cradle and the Govt acquiesced so here we are.

If you notice the Free & Democratic items in our inventory across the 3 services they are mostly useless or unnecessary like those Predators, 6 Apaches, INS Jalashwa( ex USS Trenton, )
There are a few types that are useful like those M777 Howitzers and P8I Poseidon.

This is a completely bs logic we are a country that practices strategic autonomy, if we were not then this hafta logic made sense