Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[705-Lira]

You guys may already know this but TIL this image of "Project 18 Destroyer" that defense fanboys hype each other up with "13000 TON DESTROYER WITH 122-144 VLS CELLS, 127MM CANNON, WAOW!", including on the wikipedia page,

View attachment 20649

Is from a video from DefExpo displaying 2022 Next Generation CMS by the Indian Navy twitter


View: https://x.com/IndiannavyMedia/status/1580814200347426817

In all likelihood this particular CGI may be the result of Admiral Mungerilal's Haseen Sapne but the chindis in MoD will never approve a 144 VLS design which may be very expensive.


So lets us pray that DND makes a 96 VLS Project 18 design and stands by whatever it costs( Instead of going the "we will add more missile in next MLU" route ) and the GoI approves the funding and contract gets signed during Gobi's this term only.

This is the only force among the 3 that is seemingly hampered only by budget and not by some import-khori based sabotage like the other two, let them for once become equal-equal with peer Naval powers.

How exactly do you plan to fit 144 VLS cells in a design that is expected to display roughly the same as a Arleigh Burke DDG?

 

[Ayan Barat]

Why can't we Jerry rig some RIM like frames and pack them with Astras, I mean we are jugaadufying everything, why not jugaad this one.

I've mentioned it multiple times now

The closest would be Astra but it's too heavy and more of an ESSM analogue.

A Mk-49 type 21-shot launcher with Astra would weigh around 7.8t; for RIM-116 it's just 5.2t. And if you keep the weight constant then you'd have just 10 missiles.

Or is there more to turning the Astra into a SAM that we cannot do it now

Astra already has a SAM my Guy. VL-SRSAM is pretty much exactly an Astra with more or less the only differences being the addition of a TVC and folding fins.

But with 40-70km range, 170kg weight and an active radar seeker it's more like an ESSM analogue [ESSM is 280kg, 50km ranged, ARH].
The reason ESSM is bit heavier is primarily because it's developed from scratch rather than adoption a AAM for SAM role so it uses a much more powerful motor to reduce the reaction time (reaches Mach 4 in seconds) and a heavier warhead, 40kg Vs 15kg.

Is this plan a replacement of ak630 or a enhancement (aka jugaad)?

I explicitly stated "replace" my Guy

Any idea on the timelines and will it work in tandem with a RIM type module later on (if one is to be developed)?

It's just some discussion; CIWS replacement is currently not a priority the priority seems to launch as ships as possible to secure the IOR and then if required, upgrade them.

As for how exactly it would be, I can't tell much.

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

How exactly do you plan to fit 144 VLS cells in a design that is expected to display roughly the same as a Arleigh Burke D

How exactly do you plan to fit 144 VLS cells in a design that is expected to display roughly the same as a Arleigh Burke DDG?

I feel like having 144 vls on single ship could be a case of putting all your eggs in one basket.
Sounds cool to have 144 missiles on a single boat but losing one would mean losing a lot of unused stuff. Arguably 84-96 is a reasonable number.

I was thinking why aren't we, thinking about upgrading vizag class to have like 20-24 brahmos and order those before P-18 start being delivered by 2035.

 

[Blood+]

First of all...God damn it Mate!!!

First time seeing someone challenge my urge of doodling everything. Also nice handwriting, way better than my "doctor writing physics stuff" handwriting

Fourth attempt, mate. You should have seen the first 3, LMAO!!

Yeah but slowly we're moving away from that design with more and more navies going with an integrated mast type layout.

I was using ShipBucket's estimation for the X band ones, not the S band ones
View attachment 20499

So it'd appear.

This is a problem one would have with an arm launcher where you'd need to reload after each shot. With VLS, especially ships that have two VLS "farms" one fore and one mid-ship the capability of launching multiple missile almost simultaneously (you still few milliseconds gap) increases drastically.

True, but even with a VLS, you can fire off only so many rounds at a given time and those few seconds between the first detection of the incoming BrahMos at ~25 km and the subsequent S maneuver, the window is likely to be not big enough to get sufficient number of interceptors in the air.

Now, do have a gander at this, I think it'll be somewhat relevant here -

Ukraine has to fire 32 Patriot Missiles to counter one Russian hypersonic missile, why Zelensky is repenting his decision to...​

I guess you're confusing anti-aircraft guns with missiles. In AA guns you need to find out a firing solution based on where exactly the missile would be in future and then aim at that point. In missile it's proportional navigation, the missile continuously changes its course but keeps the direct line of sight at constant.

Like this -

right?? I know. But even here, the interceptor is following the lead vector of the target, rather than the target itself!! Therefore, the radar system needs to figure out the lead regardless!! And thus, guns or missiles - it's pretty much the same principle. The only real difference here is that the missile can alter its vector while a gun's projectiles can not.

Of course, the job becomes a whole lot easier when the target is coming straight at you but in real life, that'll seldom happen, if ever. The AShMs (BrahMos in this case) are more likely to come with some degree of slant in their vectors (especially true for the HQ-10s).

And besides, whilst the process of tracking by radars is continuous, it's by no means contiguous, due to the very nature of radars, as there will always be a short delay between the pulses regardless of the antenna type and thus, there will always be some guesswork involved when it comes to determining target's future position, velocity, heading etc. And this is what maneuvers like notching/ beaming seeks to exploit.



And what does this portion of the so-called S maneuver look like?? Or this is what I have come to understand as my head-canon after going through the details with my admittedly very limited understanding of the whole underlying physics of this stuff. @Binayak95 , would you like to chip in??

 

[vampyrbladez]

Video from OEM showing how the 76mm Upgraded SRGM works with DART ammunition. The target appears to be a high subsonic sea skimming missile.

I'm not sure if the ammo type would be effective against supersonic BrahMos and YJ 12 style missiles.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqUZmspv_SY&

 

[Binayak95]

Fourth attempt, mate. You should have seen the first 3, LMAO!!


So it'd appear.

True, but even with a VLS, you can fire off only so many rounds at a given time and those few seconds between the first detection of the incoming BrahMos at ~25 km and the subsequent S maneuver, the window is likely to be not big enough to get sufficient number of interceptors in the air.

Now, do have a gander at this, I think it'll be somewhat relevant here -

Ukraine has to fire 32 Patriot Missiles to counter one Russian hypersonic missile, why Zelensky is repenting his decision to...​

Like this -

right?? I know. But even here, the interceptor is following the lead vector of the target, rather than the target itself!! Therefore, the radar system needs to figure out the lead regardless!! And thus, guns or missiles - it's pretty much the same principle. The only real difference here is that the missile can alter its vector while a gun's projectiles can not.

Of course, the job becomes a whole lot easier when the target is coming straight at you but in real life, that'll seldom happen, if ever. The AShMs (BrahMos in this case) are more likely to come with some degree of slant in their vectors (especially true for the HQ-10s).

And besides, whilst the process of tracking by radars is continuous, it's by no means contiguous, due to the very nature of radars, as there will always be a short delay between the pulses regardless of the antenna type and thus, there will always be some guesswork involved when it comes to determining target's future position, velocity, heading etc. And this is what maneuvers like notching/ beaming seeks to exploit.

View attachment 20728

And what does this portion of the so-called S maneuver look like?? Or this is what I have come to understand as my head-canon after going through the details with my admittedly very limited understanding of the whole underlying physics of this stuff. @Binayak95 , would you like to chip in??

I am drunk at the moment, woke up to see you two still at it.

Putting in a pin on this, will get back to it after a mug or two of black coffee. Give me an hour folks

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

weren't the Astra missiles first test fired from surface rigs? Why can't we Jerry rig some RIM like frames and pack them with Astras, I mean we are jugaadufying everything, why not jugaad this one. This one seems like it will actually be a product more than just jugaad. Or is there more to turning the Astra into a SAM that we cannot do it now?


Is this plan a replacement of ak630 or a enhancement (aka jugaad)? Any idea on the timelines and will it work in tandem with a RIM type module later on (if one is to be developed)?


This is why I want to know kf we have such deck space available on our ships to just put up a RIM type setup with Astras.

rim-116 (block-0) uses a sidewinder as missile we can do same with ngccm rather than bigger astra which is much bigger and wider to be effectively used in launchers like rim-116

rim with astra are a no go even if you mount 4 astra it would be 750 kg in weight latest ram missiles weigh only 70-80kg with 10km range if you place astra it would become too big of a system to be effective and consume a big amount of deck space both above and below

 

[Ayan Barat]

@Binayak95 , would you like to chip in??

To be honest, I don't like this Guy.

I mean c'mon, he can easily sneak into a P-15B and click some UHD pics of what exactly is under-deck of the bow VLS area but no, just letting his immense potential getting wasted. Especially when we all on DFB can easily crowdfund for his bail

 

[Blood+]

I am drunk at the moment, woke up to see you two still at it.

Putting in a pin on this, will get back to it after a mug or two of black coffee. Give me an hour folks

But dude, it's not even 12 yet!!

 

[Blood+]

To be honest, I don't like this Guy.

I mean c'mon, he can easily sneak into a P-15B and click some UHD pics of what exactly is under-deck of the bow VLS area but no, just letting his immense potential getting wasted. Especially when we all on DFB can easily crowdfund for his bail

Forget bail, for this, the members will set him off for life in a private island and all that jazz!!

 

[Blood+]

How exactly do you plan to fit 144 VLS cells in a design that is expected to display roughly the same as a Arleigh Burke DDG?

Preliminary plan (or at least what was circulated in public) was for a 12-13k ton boat.

 

[shade2]

rim-116 (block-0) uses a sidewinder as missile we can do same with ngccm rather than bigger astra which is much bigger and wider to be effectively used in launchers like rim-116

It's a Bri'ish missile m8, will they allow us to mod it like that?

 

[shade2]

It will take until 2029 for a contract to be formalised and construction will start in 2030.

Thus given that manufacturing will be more advanced in the future, construction of the first ship will take 5 years (2030-2034).

Commissioning of the same will be in 2035. Thus cost of armament and each vessel can top $1.5 billion easily.



https://theprint.in/defence/next-ge...-fighters-expected-by-2032-says-navy/1868213/

The first batch of 4 will easily cost around $6 billion. Next batch of 4 maybe $6.2 billion. So until 2040 there will be 8 x P 18A/B in service with the Navy, role wise very similar to the Type 055 Heavy Destroyer/ Cruiser.

How are you so optimistic about such timelines for a large destroyer ship of 13ktons never before built by any shipyard here?

From keel-laying to hull launch it takes 2-3 years for P17A/P15B boats so the shipyard boys are pretty good, but i've seen the delays creep in since the imported or screwdrivered radar and weapons and all take time to arrive with a delay of 4-6 years

 

[Blood+]

It's a Bri'ish missile m8, will they allow us to mod it like that?

I don't think they will mind as long as we pay them the right amount.

 

[vampyrbladez]

How are you so optimistic about such timelines for a large destroyer ship of 13ktons never before built by any shipyard here?

From keel-laying to hull launch it takes 2-3 years for P17A/P15B boats so the shipyard boys are pretty good, but i've seen the delays creep in since the imported or screwdrivered radar and weapons and all take time to arrive with a delay of 4-6 years

The Navy has been building bigger and bigger ships and have been able to reduce the build time of a P 15A from 10 years (keel laying to commissioning) to P 15B taking 7 years (keel laying to commissioning) and finally the P 17A taking 6 years (keel laying to commissioning).

With increased expertise in building more complex ships, P 18A will be in commission within 5-6 years from 2029.

 

[Blood+]

The Navy has been building bigger and bigger ships and have been able to reduce the build time of a P 15A from 10 years (keel laying to commissioning) to P 15B taking 7 years (keel laying to commissioning) and finally the P 17A taking 6 years (keel laying to commissioning).

With increased expertise in building more complex ships, P 18A will be in commission within 5-6 years from 2029.

Yeah but those ships, so far have been gradual evolution of their predecessors whereas with the P-18 DDG, they are making a radical shift in their existing design philosophy!! So, I for one am somewhat skeptical that the Navy's/ shipyards' current expertise and improvement in efficacy will fully translate to the P18 project.

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

It's a Bri'ish missile m8, will they allow us to mod it like that?

everything has a cost we could have made a ngccm (astra-ir) and mod it to be like a rim-116 type launcher

 

[Ayan Barat]

Forget bail, for this, the members will set him off for life in a private island and all that jazz!!

But then he'd crib every single day for the rest of his life that there's no RBU-6000 on his private island and how his island is defenseless against a PLAN submarine assault. Leave it

we can do same with ngccm

Won't be cost effective to use AIM-132s in CIWS role unless there's a local production line and also a substantial order from IAF and IN to achieve economies of scale. Just for an idea, as of now some 1,10,000 Sidewinders have been produced.

And what does this portion of the so-called S maneuver look like??

Not much is available in public domain and whatever is seems to be is just fan-made.

So the only thing I can do is shitpost. The BrahMos seeker made by DataPatterns have a detection range of 20km and gimbal steeriabilty to ±40° in azimuth. So the S-maneuver can't be initiated before radar lock on (20km) and the max yaw can't be more than 40° from the boresight as it would break the lock. In short...

But here's my doubt; in head-on engagement shouldn't the "efforts" done by an interceptor be lesser? Like

• BrahMos is detected
coming head-on
• an interceptor is launched immediately and 6-7sec later the BrahMos starts the first leg of its maneuver
• it sharply turns 40° and travels some 5km. For BrahMos it's a considerable effort
• but to maintain a LoS the interceptor missile needs to just gradually change its yaw to a maximum of only 16°

Furthermore, as I've mentioned earlier that it's not a dynamic maneuver but rather just a preprogrammed path. If a fighter is maneuvering then nothing's is certain, it can randomly go anywhere. But in case of BrahMos no matter what S, F, K maneuver it does, in the end it'll still come towards the ship only. So this too helps in making interception slightly easier. If BrahMos is starting a S-maneuver then pitch up the interceptor instead of following it and wait for it to finish it's electric boogaloo, once two or there turns have been made then pitch down your interceptor and slam from above.

True, but even with a VLS, you can fire off only so many rounds at a given time

There's no data on this but generally I've seen a 10-15sec delay between two subsequent launches from the same unit. But these are for bigger Tomahawk sized missile, for ESSM this should be smaller. But even if we don't consider this then also it won't be a serious factor as there are atleast 8 other units so with all the VLS firing you'd get a sustained rate of fire of a missile every 1.25sec.
So in 5 sec a BrahMos would've covered (5*3*340) = 5.1km but you too would have launched (5/1.25) = 4 interceptors.

32 Patriot Missiles to counter one Russian hypersonic missile

Instead of a simple 32 interceptor Vs one missile, this thing highlights something else.

Russian attacks are always in swarms with multiple types of weapons fired at the same time; subsonic cruise, Shaheds, aero-ballistic and supersonic AShMs. So if we too are successful in creating a similar scenario for a Type-055 then we can also lower their effectiveness to just may be 16:1 for LR-AShM.
To be honest, only then we'd be able to do

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Carrier CDG in Goa

 

[Aaj Ka Hero]

Indian Navy’s Stealth Frigates Get New Firepower – Indian Defence Research Wing

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