Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Bleh]

Absolutely not!

SSN are faster & will have a 100days endurance (limited by oxygen & food supply)... that's it. Although they can "dash" to a location it'll make plenty of noise for them to be detected while their own noise at high-speed renders themselves deaf. Also batteries are more silent than nuke-powerplant can't be made to shut-up, resulting in this:

During War Games, an Indian Diesel Submarine Sank a U.S. Nuclear Submarine

Key Point: When used properly, diesel-powered submarines can be just as deadly as nuclear ones. The Indian submarine INS Sindhudhvaj (S56) allegedly “killed” USS City of Corpus Christi (SSN 705) during an exercise called Malabar that is held annually between India, Japan and the United States...

nationalinterest.org

Maybe they're slightly better individually, but definitely aren't double the worth. Even 4 SSKs over 3 SSNs anytime. Slow & silent & standoff-ranged 3 SSGNs (Arihant with BraHmos) over 3 SSNs any day.

We quietly disposed off the Akula with no replacement or lease extension attempts.

While the Indian losers have failed to build upon the Kilo Class & Kalvari Class & will doubtlessly continue to do so in future, Chinese Yuan Class SSKs which was a derivative of their Kilos are seeing interesting development.

Two designs have been sighted, may vlbe seperate or experiments on the same model.

 

[Gessler]

INS Tamala on sea trials


View: https://x.com/battle_machines/status/1882167841958551680

This could be the last foreign-built principle surface combatant we ever induct.

...unless we get any more stupid ideas (which we are well-known for getting).

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

While the Indian losers have failed to build upon the Kilo Class & Kalvari Class & will doubtlessly continue to do so in future.l, Chinese Yuan Class SSKs which was a derivative of their Kilos are seeing interesting development.

Two designs have been sighted, may vlbe seperate or experiments on the same model.
View attachment 22862View attachment 22863

DPSUs+Democracy are the ultimate abomination. We seems to pick the worst traits of both systems and made a zombified version of it. Either one works FreeMarket Private+ Democracy or DPSUs+Autocracy.

 

[fire starter]

This could be the last foreign-built principle surface combatant we ever induct.

...unless we get any more stupid ideas (which we are well-known for getting).

It is a perfect example of military hardware diplomacy.

Now Americans have replaced the Russians.

 

[Gessler]

It is a perfect example of military hardware diplomacy.

Now Americans have replaced the Russians.

You can influence decisions by buying things we actually need, but can't produce ourselves.

Like oil/energy.

But of course people in the MoD, Armed Forces (can't deny that some are corrupt) & foreign contractors/shipyards would want to make some money as well so they push a lot of these deals.

The American deals (like Stryker) appear more aimed at promoting interoperability rather than outright favour trading, because for one - these deals are pittances compared to the kind of money the US MIC moves. Not big enough to influence decisions with State dept.

I think the total amount of arms we bought from US since turn of century is around $20-25 billion. Saudis bought $30 billion worth of F-15SAs in one shot - and that's still not enough to get Biden to designate Houthis as terrorists and lift restrictions on ordnance use.

But even $1 billon in Russia goes a long way cuz their arms industry is a cash-starved system. But it's up to us if we want to spend it on the Russian arms industry, procuring sub-par hardware, or in lining the pockets of Rosneft, buying something we actually need but can't produce ourselves.

Kremlin is happy either way.

 

[abingdonboy]

44 Years Later, India Chooses German U-Boats Again - Livefist

Nearly half a century after it chose to buy and build German Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) Type 209 submarines for its navy, India has down-selected a new generation submarine offering from the same shipbuilder to meet a requirement of six conventional India-built submarines under the...

www.livefistdefence.com

Can someone please white pill me on the P75I?

From what I can see it is unjustifiable in every way today

View: https://x.com/ksingh_1469/status/1882497140905394609?s=46

I’m sure the boat will be a lot more capable than P76 will be initially but is there worth $10bn flowing out? For half that DRDO say they can deliver a 5th gen engine.

Even if $10bn is to be spent on subs why not on more SSN? Or just taking the plunge on P76? Have to start somewhere, Germans and the rest are only good at these subs because they invested in themselves and built on their experience over the decades. This idea that india will leapfrog and skip the hard parts is a total myth

And the cherry on top is this is going to MDL so India doesn’t even get an additional submarine line + MDL are the ones that are working on P76 apparently so they won’t even bother with it for at least another 15 years now

just feels like the IN’s MMRCA/MRFA- they’ve had it in their heads for so long they want a foreign boat they won’t think of any other plans

Baffling

 

[darkflame]

Can someone please white pill me on the P75I?

From what I can see it is unjustifiable in every way today

View: https://x.com/ksingh_1469/status/1882497140905394609?s=46

I’m sure the boat will be a lot more capable than P76 will be initially but is there worth $10bn flowing out? For half that DRDO say they can deliver a 5th gen engine.

Even if $10bn is to be spent on subs why not on more SSN? Or just taking the plunge on P76? Have to start somewhere, Germans and the rest are only good at these subs because they invested in themselves and built on their experience over the decades. This idea that india will leapfrog and skip the hard parts is a total myth

And the cherry on top is this is going to MDL so India doesn’t even get an additional submarine line + MDL are the ones that are working on P76 apparently so they won’t even bother with it for at least another 15 years now

just feels like the IN’s MMRCA/MRFA- they’ve had it in their heads for so long they want a foreign boat they won’t think of any other plans

Baffling

Cost is very justified scorpenes without aip is costing us 1.4 billion USD per unit. P75i subs being offered by Germany have a displacement twice that of scorpenes, and comes with aip and lithium ion batteries and still per unit cost is more or less the same.
P77 SSNs will be our first nuclear attack subs and it is very unlikely we will catch up with Europe and us on our first try, taking in account arihant class is nothing but an underwater orchestra, if we want ourselves to rise up to take challenges from china and even Pakistan we will need these submarines and there is no p76 without p75i, because we still don't have know how to make our own, if we had the know how we haven't had waited, each of our type 209 and kilos are getting mid life refit, first type 209 was commissioned in 1984 and came out of MLU in 2023 and will atleast service till 2033 that's a total 49 years of service!!.each of our submarines will go the same way and will service around 50 years or more,needless to say how hazardous such old submarines will be for its crew itself.

 

[shade2]

Can someone please white pill me on the P75I?

From what I can see it is unjustifiable in every way today

View: https://x.com/ksingh_1469/status/1882497140905394609?s=46

I’m sure the boat will be a lot more capable than P76 will be initially but is there worth $10bn flowing out? For half that DRDO say they can deliver a 5th gen engine.

Even if $10bn is to be spent on subs why not on more SSN? Or just taking the plunge on P76? Have to start somewhere, Germans and the rest are only good at these subs because they invested in themselves and built on their experience over the decades. This idea that india will leapfrog and skip the hard parts is a total myth

And the cherry on top is this is going to MDL so India doesn’t even get an additional submarine line + MDL are the ones that are working on P76 apparently so they won’t even bother with it for at least another 15 years now

just feels like the IN’s MMRCA/MRFA- they’ve had it in their heads for so long they want a foreign boat they won’t think of any other plans

Baffling

Order will be split in all likelihood, MDL will be getting 3x Kalvari and 6x of these German subs if contract is signed, that's a lot of backlog and production concentrated in one location.

So logically it should be split with L&T getting the other share.

That is the trend right now, Large orders getting split between 2 shipyards, P17A, ASW-SWC, HSL Fleet replenishment tanker.

Giving L&T half of the order is also a good way to prevent them from doing court case filing and all.

Baaki even i'd prefer P76 instead but idk what specific ToT we will be getting with this submarine + any industrial/diplomatic benefits with ze Germans.

 

[shade2]

Is mine sweeper harder to build than a destroyer? If we can build SSBN & aircraft carriers, I believe we can build a small mine sweeper too..

GSL already purchased the FRP hull production equipment, and I don't think it would be hard to just buy the mine-sweeps from 5 places or maybe DRDO could develop some themselves.

Ofc for this there has to be a demand from the User in the first place, User has other priorities with their funds, that is to do boat-maxxxing of missile and torpedo carrying boats and also submarines.

 

[Bleh]

Can someone please white pill me on the P75I?

From what I can see it is unjustifiable in every way today

View: https://x.com/ksingh_1469/status/1882497140905394609?s=46

I’m sure the boat will be a lot more capable than P76 will be initially but is there worth $10bn flowing out? For half that DRDO say they can deliver a 5th gen engine.

Even if $10bn is to be spent on subs why not on more SSN? Or just taking the plunge on P76? Have to start somewhere, Germans and the rest are only good at these subs because they invested in themselves and built on their experience over the decades. This idea that india will leapfrog and skip the hard parts is a total myth

And the cherry on top is this is going to MDL so India doesn’t even get an additional submarine line + MDL are the ones that are working on P76 apparently so they won’t even bother with it for at least another 15 years now

just feels like the IN’s MMRCA/MRFA- they’ve had it in their heads for so long they want a foreign boat they won’t think of any other plans

Baffling

Cost is fine... P75 Scorpenes are 1.2-3 bil each, 1.4bil for 6 new gen stealth P75i SSKs with AIP plus ToT for P-76 is reasonable enough. We won't get 6 SSNs for the price, but if these come with BraHmos VLS then it's the best we can get.
That's why Korea pulled out of the race, because the original quote was to low for ToT.

Also I think other shipyard may also be building them, not just MDL.

 

[Gessler]

View: https://x.com/Parthu_Potluri/status/1882685097331286314

I get the distinct feeling that P-75I will never go through.

It just doesn't make any sense. What is the need to spend Rs. 70,000+ crores ($8+ billion) buying a diesel-electric AIP submarine design when we have all the building blocks for making one ourselves?

The only justification anyone is even attempting to give is that the German offer is 'proven'. But there are huge caveats to that! Germans may have a working fuel cell-based AIP at sea, which meets the technical requirement to qualify for bidding - but this is NOT the AIP that would go on the actual P-75I offer.

The sub they have at hand (Type-214) is too small to meet the IN range/endurance/displacement requirements which is why TKMS is actually planning on offering a new, larger modified variant with design elements taken from the Type-212CD program. Which is more than a third bigger than regular 212/214.

The larger submarine would require an upscaled AIP solution with greater capacity to charge batteries, otherwise it would take a huge performance hit. This new AIP solution has to be built & tested. The new, larger submarine has to undergo the detailed design phase. There aren't any simple off-the-shelf solutions to be had!

There are still so many unknowns in this deal - I simply fail to see how TKMS (a company on verge of bankruptcy, btw) can deliver all this without having to change the amount they bid for (which is the condition for not invoking single-vendor clause and cancelling the whole thing).Even if they can somehow deliver, this is gonna take a lot of time. I don't see us cutting steel before 2030 minimum. By which point our own indigenous fuel cell AIP would be more than ready for retrofit on Kalvari-class, and our first two SSNs would be well into construction!

Justifying a foreign AIP sub purchase, only to induct it at around the same time as when indigenous SSN enters service and indigenous AIP-equipped sub enters service is just bonkers.

The whole P-75I requirement is in need of a DEEP REVIEW. We're simply going with the same requirements as were defined in the 90s (back when nobody was confident of making an AIP at home, and nobody was confident of being able to build nuclear submarines at home). The operating environment has undergone massive change since then - PLAN SSN patrols are a regular occurrence in IOR today.

And domestic industrial capabilities have undergone drastic improvement. We had no SSN program back when the 24-sub SSK plan was devised, the foreign sub + foreign AIP under P-75I was intended to be the high-end of our subsurface force. Today, our plans call for an SSN with a 190MW reactor to be the high-end...Scorpene upgraded with DRDO AIP is sufficient to be the low-end, which can be supplanted in the future by fully indigenous P-76.

The case for P-75I is simply gone in my honest opinion. But unless a holistic review of requirements is done, the Navy & MoD are not in a position to acknowledge the updated requirements & domestic capacities.

 

[shade2]

Another name-brand patrakar, Dinakar Peri of The Dindu confirming it's a derivative Type 214 design with Type 212CD elements( aka angular/stealth hull )

MDL-TKMS bid for Navy’s P-75I submarine tender clears technical evaluation

Major milestone reached in the multi-billion dollar submarine deal under project-75I, with MDL-TKMS bid clearing technical evaluation.

www.thehindu.com

The design offered by TKMS, in partnership with MDL, is based on its highly successful Class 214 submarine as well as Class 212CD and has an operationally proven AIP module.

The TKMS has conveyed to the Indian Navy that the Lithium ion cell in its AIP module will be upgraded by the time the first submarine is delivered. The AIP module has a Polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) based fuel cell and company officials had stated and that it has both fuel cell as well Lithium Ion based giving it enhanced performance.

The first submarine under P-75I must have a minimum of 45% indigenisation, with the local content going up to 60% in the sixth.

Let's hope the GoI negotiators score some good ToT on the MTU diesel engines that seem to be standard on SSKs of various countries, 70k crores must not be spent lightly

 

[shade2]

View: https://x.com/Parthu_Potluri/status/1882685097331286314

I get the distinct feeling that P-75I will never go through.

It just doesn't make any sense. What is the need to spend Rs. 70,000+ crores ($8+ billion) buying a diesel-electric AIP submarine design when we have all the building blocks for making one ourselves?

The only justification anyone is even attempting to give is that the German offer is 'proven'. But there are huge caveats to that! Germans may have a working fuel cell-based AIP at sea, which meets the technical requirement to qualify for bidding - but this is NOT the AIP that would go on the actual P-75I offer.

The sub they have at hand (Type-214) is too small to meet the IN range/endurance/displacement requirements which is why TKMS is actually planning on offering a new, larger modified variant with design elements taken from the Type-212CD program. Which is more than a third bigger than regular 212/214.

The larger submarine would require an upscaled AIP solution with greater capacity to charge batteries, otherwise it would take a huge performance hit. This new AIP solution has to be built & tested. The new, larger submarine has to undergo the detailed design phase. There aren't any simple off-the-shelf solutions to be had!

There are still so many unknowns in this deal - I simply fail to see how TKMS (a company on verge of bankruptcy, btw) can deliver all this without having to change the amount they bid for (which is the condition for not invoking single-vendor clause and cancelling the whole thing).Even if they can somehow deliver, this is gonna take a lot of time. I don't see us cutting steel before 2030 minimum. By which point our own indigenous fuel cell AIP would be more than ready for retrofit on Kalvari-class, and our first two SSNs would be well into construction!

Justifying a foreign AIP sub purchase, only to induct it at around the same time as when indigenous SSN enters service and indigenous AIP-equipped sub enters service is just bonkers.

The whole P-75I requirement is in need of a DEEP REVIEW. We're simply going with the same requirements as were defined in the 90s (back when nobody was confident of making an AIP at home, and nobody was confident of being able to build nuclear submarines at home). The operating environment has undergone massive change since then - PLAN SSN patrols are a regular occurrence in IOR today.

And domestic industrial capabilities have undergone drastic improvement. We had no SSN program back when the 24-sub SSK plan was devised, the foreign sub + foreign AIP under P-75I was intended to be the high-end of our subsurface force. Today, our plans call for an SSN with a 190MW reactor to be the high-end...Scorpene upgraded with DRDO AIP is sufficient to be the low-end, which can be supplanted in the future by fully indigenous P-76.

The case for P-75I is simply gone in my honest opinion. But unless a holistic review of requirements is done, the Navy & MoD are not in a position to acknowledge the updated requirements & domestic capacities.

One caveat for this argument is the SSN hasn't even started construction yet, and the DRDO AIP hasn't been installed and tested on a Kalvari, so this is how you insert the P75I purchase in by arguing is that it is "hedging our bets" alongside some garnishing jhumlas like how P75I is necessary for P76.

My only concerns about this are

• The Germans fuck us after contract signing over some Humanische Richten Violationen export control bullshite without even a single submarine being delivered.
• The Germans fuck us via the French model, by not providing promised ToT while dancing over contract which our Baboons didn't vet properly before signing.
• They screw us over via the Russian model, with delays and cost increases.