Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[shade2]

It is up now. Might be down temporarily for server maintenance.

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in

Nope it's still down, this career one is active but it's only about careers https://www.joinindiannavy.gov.in/
no info about ships or their doctrine or anything else

 

[SKC]

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in

Nope it's still down, this career one is active but it's only about careers https://www.joinindiannavy.gov.in/
no info about ships or their doctrine or anything else

Ok, its down now.

It opened for me fine over an hour back.

 

[shade2]

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarplanePorn/comments/1guzl59/turkish_bayraktar_tb3_take_off_from_tcg_anadolu/


View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarplanePorn/comments/1guzhuo/bayraktar_tb3_has_successfully_landed_on_tcg/

Toorki drone takes off and lands on their LHD

In an actual amphibious invasion scenario what is the use of such a type of drone( wide straight wings, air to surface weapons )?

OTOH they have one more that is like a stealth fighter jet, if such a drone is launched, can it do CAP vs enemy fighters?

 

[haldilal]

Ya'll Nibbiars INS Brahmaputra now upright,

 

[VictorDelta4]

View: https://x.com/IN_HQSNC/status/1859164302667600106

 

[Gessler]

In an actual amphibious invasion scenario what is the use of such a type of drone( wide straight wings, air to surface weapons )?

Not very effective. If we're talking about supporting an amphib invasion, it all comes down to how much ordnance you can drop to soften up any defences.

Drones like this cannot carry a lot of payload. The TB3's capacity is only <300kg. That means the explosive equivalent of a single one of these:



The only way to make up for the lack of payload capacity in a strike role is to go with large numbers of airframes. But on a ship like this, the space is limited so that's not gonna happen.

In a low-intensity counter-insurgency or anti-terror role, yes TB3s flying from LHDs can be a cheap & effective way (if used with SATCOM, otherwise it's very risky to bring the ship close to shore if only operating with LOS uplink) but in an all-out war which is what an amphib landing implies, not so much.

This is not a desirable air wing for a ship like the Juan Carlos-class LHD. Turkey is only having to go down this path because they got kicked out of the Joint Strike Fighter program. Otherwise the perfect air component for these ships would've been the F-35B just like on the Italian, Korean & Japanese-operated LHDs.

OTOH they have one more that is like a stealth fighter jet, if such a drone is launched, can it do CAP vs enemy fighters?

Technology that can allow drones to autonomously engage A2A targets with a degree of effectiveness is still being developed in the US as part of their Collaborative Combat Aircraft (CCA) aka Loyal Wingmen program.

But can the Kizilelma simply fire off an AAM toward a target? Probably. But I wouldn't expect it to be kinematically a very effective platform for BVR engagements. For example, the same missile fired from an F-16 will probably have way higher Ph/Pk.

But no doubt that Kizilelma will be a much more effective platform (1.5 ton payload) for both A2A and A2G engagements compared to something like TB3. Still not as effective as an actual fighter plane though.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Well most of it already got covered by Gessler so I'm just adding few of my takes to it

In an actual amphibious invasion scenario what is the use of such a type of drone( wide straight wings, air to surface weapons )?

Have you heard about a lady called called Sümeyye?
Most probably not, so let me just tell you both her current full name and what it used to me before her marriage; Sümeyye Bayraktar and Sümeyye Erdogan.
Yup, those two surnames are exactly what you're thinking of.

So to answer your question about the actual use case of using a small MALE drone from a LHD...it helps the president in gaining traction among the local population when you present the fact that your one the very few countries to achieve this feat.

As for some actual technicalities, here's few points
> If you have a semi-aircraft carrier and a drone then why not make it carrier capable? It won't do any harm
> They can use it to mature the systems like automatic landing that would be used in future on Kizilelma or maybe even Ka'an
> They don't have an aircraft carrier, nor they're going to have one in near future so these LHDs are the only thing they have to do any kind of power projection
> Having a low cost UAV on a carrier is always good as it frees up your fighters to do more of fighter job. Currently if USN Fifth Fleet decides to bomb an ISIS leader in Yemen then for that too the only option they've is a full on F/A-18E/F.
> For small ships like LHDs the options are really limited; either helicopters of your choice or F-35s...that's it. So by having, let's say a TB3 you can do SOME (this point is important, some not all) roles of them better than them.
> In case of beach landing these can provide a better surveillance, reconnaissance, limited attack capability than other platforms. Can act as communication relays in a degraded environment.

OTOH they have one more that is like a stealth fighter jet, if such a drone is launched, can it do CAP vs enemy fighters?

Does it? No
Can it? Yup; maybe better than humans

There are two aspects of aerial combat; WVR and BVR.
Let's about the simpler first; BVR. From an implementation point of view it's extremely easy. So easy that you can even take a commercial plane, add a radar, few missiles, some targetting algorithms and you'll have a formidable BVR platform. So technically any drone that can be equipped with a good radar and can carry BVR-AAMs is worthy. And Kizilelma definitely does both.
As for WVR, the first notion is that it won't be used in future combats. But for this argument let's assume it'll be. Contrary to what people think in WVR combat the pilot is not fighting the enemy fighter, rather he's fighting himself. His skills, situational awareness, reaction time, tactical planning and most importantly, his ability to function properly above 9g is what defines whether he'll win or lose. Replace the pilot with electronics and now your jet can theoretically go beyond 20g. Replace the manual control with an AI autopilot and now you can defeat even the TOPGUN pilots. Infact from as back as 2020 AI pilots have repeatedly defeated human ones in simulated combat in DARPA's Alpha program.

 

[shade2]

Well most of it already got covered by Gessler so I'm just adding few of my takes to it

Have you heard about a lady called called Sümeyye?
Most probably not, so let me just tell you both her current full name and what it used to me before her marriage; Sümeyye Bayraktar and Sümeyye Erdogan.
Yup, those two surnames are exactly what you're thinking of.

So to answer your question about the actual use case of using a small MALE drone from a LHD...it helps the president in gaining traction among the local population when you present the fact that your one the very few countries to achieve this feat.

As for some actual technicalities, here's few points
> If you have a semi-aircraft carrier and a drone then why not make it carrier capable? It won't do any harm
> They can use it to mature the systems like automatic landing that would be used in future on Kizilelma or maybe even Ka'an
> They don't have an aircraft carrier, nor they're going to have one in near future so these LHDs are the only thing they have to do any kind of power projection
> Having a low cost UAV on a carrier is always good as it frees up your fighters to do more of fighter job. Currently if USN Fifth Fleet decides to bomb an ISIS leader in Yemen then for that too the only option they've is a full on F/A-18E/F.
> For small ships like LHDs the options are really limited; either helicopters of your choice or F-35s...that's it. So by having, let's say a TB3 you can do SOME (this point is important, some not all) roles of them better than them.
> In case of beach landing these can provide a better surveillance, reconnaissance, limited attack capability than other platforms. Can act as communication relays in a degraded environment.

Does it? No
Can it? Yup; maybe better than humans

There are two aspects of aerial combat; WVR and BVR.
Let's about the simpler first; BVR. From an implementation point of view it's extremely easy. So easy that you can even take a commercial plane, add a radar, few missiles, some targetting algorithms and you'll have a formidable BVR platform. So technically any drone that can be equipped with a good radar and can carry BVR-AAMs is worthy. And Kizilelma definitely does both.
As for WVR, the first notion is that it won't be used in future combats. But for this argument let's assume it'll be. Contrary to what people think in WVR combat the pilot is not fighting the enemy fighter, rather he's fighting himself. His skills, situational awareness, reaction time, tactical planning and most importantly, his ability to function properly above 9g is what defines whether he'll win or lose. Replace the pilot with electronics and now your jet can theoretically go beyond 20g. Replace the manual control with an AI autopilot and now you can defeat even the TOPGUN pilots. Infact from as back as 2020 AI pilots have repeatedly defeated human ones in simulated combat in DARPA's Alpha program.

Not very effective. If we're talking about supporting an amphib invasion, it all comes down to how much ordnance you can drop to soften up any defences.

Drones like this cannot carry a lot of payload. The TB3's capacity is only <300kg. That means the explosive equivalent of a single one of these:

View attachment 15924

The only way to make up for the lack of payload capacity in a strike role is to go with large numbers of airframes. But on a ship like this, the space is limited so that's not gonna happen.

In a low-intensity counter-insurgency or anti-terror role, yes TB3s flying from LHDs can be a cheap & effective way (if used with SATCOM, otherwise it's very risky to bring the ship close to shore if only operating with LOS uplink) but in an all-out war which is what an amphib landing implies, not so much.

This is not a desirable air wing for a ship like the Juan Carlos-class LHD. Turkey is only having to go down this path because they got kicked out of the Joint Strike Fighter program. Otherwise the perfect air component for these ships would've been the F-35B just like on the Italian, Korean & Japanese-operated LHDs.



Technology that can allow drones to autonomously engage A2A targets with a degree of effectiveness is still being developed in the US as part of their Collaborative Combat Aircraft (CCA) aka Loyal Wingmen program.

But can the Kizilelma simply fire off an AAM toward a target? Probably. But I wouldn't expect it to be kinematically a very effective platform for BVR engagements. For example, the same missile fired from an F-16 will probably have way higher Ph/Pk.

But no doubt that Kizilelma will be a much more effective platform (1.5 ton payload) for both A2A and A2G engagements compared to something like TB3. Still not as effective as an actual fighter plane though.

Thanks for your replies, very informative

Is our DRDO Ghatak like Kizilema in the context that it can do air to air also?
Afaik that is the only jet-based UCAV we have in development and so do many other countries which use the same flying wing design

 

[Ayan Barat]

Is our DRDO Ghatak like Kizilema in the context that it can do air to air also?

Ghatak would be a specialist platform; just one task but with maximum efficiency. And that's bombing/interdiction

Kizilelma would be a multirole platform with slightly more emphasis on being a loyal wingman type thing

 

[shade2]

Ghatak would be a specialist platform; just one task but with maximum efficiency. And that's bombing/interdiction

Kizilelma would be a multirole platform with slightly more emphasis on being a loyal wingman type thing

Our counterpart is then the HAL CATS loyal wingman drone correct or even that can't carry air-to-air missiles?

 

[Blood+]

Well most of it already got covered by Gessler so I'm just adding few of my takes to it

Have you heard about a lady called called Sümeyye?
Most probably not, so let me just tell you both her current full name and what it used to me before her marriage; Sümeyye Bayraktar and Sümeyye Erdogan.
Yup, those two surnames are exactly what you're thinking of.

So to answer your question about the actual use case of using a small MALE drone from a LHD...it helps the president in gaining traction among the local population when you present the fact that your one the very few countries to achieve this feat.

As for some actual technicalities, here's few points
> If you have a semi-aircraft carrier and a drone then why not make it carrier capable? It won't do any harm
> They can use it to mature the systems like automatic landing that would be used in future on Kizilelma or maybe even Ka'an
> They don't have an aircraft carrier, nor they're going to have one in near future so these LHDs are the only thing they have to do any kind of power projection
> Having a low cost UAV on a carrier is always good as it frees up your fighters to do more of fighter job. Currently if USN Fifth Fleet decides to bomb an ISIS leader in Yemen then for that too the only option they've is a full on F/A-18E/F.
> For small ships like LHDs the options are really limited; either helicopters of your choice or F-35s...that's it. So by having, let's say a TB3 you can do SOME (this point is important, some not all) roles of them better than them.
> In case of beach landing these can provide a better surveillance, reconnaissance, limited attack capability than other platforms. Can act as communication relays in a degraded environment.

Does it? No
Can it? Yup; maybe better than humans

There are two aspects of aerial combat; WVR and BVR.
Let's about the simpler first; BVR. From an implementation point of view it's extremely easy. So easy that you can even take a commercial plane, add a radar, few missiles, some targetting algorithms and you'll have a formidable BVR platform. So technically any drone that can be equipped with a good radar and can carry BVR-AAMs is worthy. And Kizilelma definitely does both.
As for WVR, the first notion is that it won't be used in future combats. But for this argument let's assume it'll be. Contrary to what people think in WVR combat the pilot is not fighting the enemy fighter, rather he's fighting himself. His skills, situational awareness, reaction time, tactical planning and most importantly, his ability to function properly above 9g is what defines whether he'll win or lose. Replace the pilot with electronics and now your jet can theoretically go beyond 20g. Replace the manual control with an AI autopilot and now you can defeat even the TOPGUN pilots. Infact from as back as 2020 AI pilots have repeatedly defeated human ones in simulated combat in DARPA's Alpha program.

You should have linked the youtube videos -

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOJhgC1ksNU​

 

[Ayan Barat]

Our counterpart is then the HAL CATS loyal wingman drone correct or even that can't carry air-to-air missiles?

Yup, pretty much

You should have linked the youtube videos -

Achha achha, aur koi hukum maalik?


Btw, thanks for the video. It really makes it easy to understand how fast these kind of man Vs machine dogfights would take to conclude

 

[randombully]

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarplanePorn/comments/1guzl59/turkish_bayraktar_tb3_take_off_from_tcg_anadolu/


View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarplanePorn/comments/1guzhuo/bayraktar_tb3_has_successfully_landed_on_tcg/

Toorki drone takes off and lands on their LHD

In an actual amphibious invasion scenario what is the use of such a type of drone( wide straight wings, air to surface weapons )?

OTOH they have one more that is like a stealth fighter jet, if such a drone is launched, can it do CAP vs enemy fighters?

Can be used to Bomb and do surveillance over kurdish fighters from the coast of Syria.

 

[Bleh]

You should have linked the youtube videos -

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOJhgC1ksNU​

This was kind of bullshit though... Average criticism chocolate that in these simulation the AI always knows the exact position, speed, direction of the human pilot.

Bring in external factors, fog of war, multiple entities & we'll see... Mitsubishi Zeros were hot shit until one Mr. Thatch came up with a team-up that rendered their maneuverability useless.

 

[shade2]

Is there a reason why MDL is the only submarine builder in the country?
Can the submarine building skills also be expanded to any other PSU shipyard? Why hasn't this been done yet?

 

[Blood+]

This was kind of bullshit though... Average criticism chocolate that in these simulation the AI always knows the exact position, speed, direction of the human pilot.

Bring in external factors, fog of war, multiple entities & we'll see... Mitsubishi Zeros were hot shit until one Mr. Thatch came up with a team-up that rendered their maneuverability useless.

True but then those same external factors will apply to the human pilot as well and dare I say, the human will be feel their effect to a greater degree.

 

[Ayan Barat]

This was kind of bullshit though... Average criticism chocolate that in these simulation the AI always knows the exact position, speed, direction of the human pilot.

Su-34's have already matured the concept of more than one radar for enhanced coverage

given the rise in new power efficient tech like GaN we'd soon see 360° radar coverage on 6th gen fighters.

F-35s already have an exceptional EO system that covers the complete 360°

In a real life scenario even if an AI is not already knowing where to aim for the human bogie, it'll have a much better chance of locating it first Vs the human pilot who'd need to look at multiple displays to find it.

Bring in external factors, fog of war, multiple entities & we'll see...

Well same goes for the human pilot too
Bring in the g force, the fight-or-flight response, adrenaline, the confusion, the fog of war too, the fear of never seeing his wife or kids again, answering to superiors, information overload...

 

[Ayan Barat]

Is there a reason why MDL is the only submarine builder in the country?
Can the submarine building skills also be expanded to any other PSU shipyard? Why hasn't this been done yet?

At this point I feel like we should just have separate thread of all the forum members trying their best to resolve your queries

The answer to all of them is that having a submarine building facility is a huge huge investment that comes with the uncertainty of you not getting sufficient orders and being able to recover your cost.

On top of that there's basic economics of FC+VC. Let's say you started your new submarine building facility, but as you've recently sunk huge amounts in your CapEx your Fixed Cost would be extremely high. Now compare to a competing entity that's in this business for a very long time; they've already recovered their investment so will have a comparatively lower FC than VC.
How are you going to win against this firm in L1 bidding?

The only scenario in which we'd have another submarine building facility, and that too only a PSU based is if MDL has let's say a definite order of 12 submarines. Then only it's justified to invest money in making a new shipyard to make 6 of them.

 

[shade2]

At this point I feel like we should just have separate thread of all the forum members trying their best to resolve your queries

The answer to all of them is that having a submarine building facility is a huge huge investment that comes with the uncertainty of you not getting sufficient orders and being able to recover your cost.

On top of that there's basic economics of FC+VC. Let's say you started your new submarine building facility, but as you've recently sunk huge amounts in your CapEx your Fixed Cost would be extremely high. Now compare to a competing entity that's in this business for a very long time; they've already recovered their investment so will have a comparatively lower FC than VC.
How are you going to win against this firm in L1 bidding?

The only scenario in which we'd have another submarine building facility, and that too only a PSU based is if MDL has let's say a definite order of 12 submarines. Then only it's justified to invest money in making a new shipyard to make 6 of them.

Ok so it's an economics issue for now.
In bold is what i had in mind, if we had another shipyard we could pop out the subs faster, there are 3 more scorpenes, if the P75i German/Spanish sub deal goes through another 6 of them and there is a P76 designed in India submarine project that is for 12 subs.

If in this decade the Cheenq takes Taiwan successfully then i'm sure they will start (((exploring))) the IOR too, making A&N unsinkable aircraft carrier and missile boat won't be enough i think, we need more subs, those Soviet and German ones are old afaik

 

[NerVik]

Ok so it's an economics issue for now.
In bold is what i had in mind, if we had another shipyard we could pop out the subs faster, there are 3 more scorpenes, if the P75i German/Spanish sub deal goes through another 6 of them and there is a P76 designed in India submarine project that is for 12 subs.

If in this decade the Cheenq takes Taiwan successfully then i'm sure they will start (((exploring))) the IOR too, making A&N unsinkable aircraft carrier and missile boat won't be enough i think, we need more subs, those Soviet and German ones are old afaik

To add to this, I hope if we do add another production line in another shipyard, it feeds into a culture change (nurture our own sub design and development) and ensure a continuous desing/development and production of subs to meet our naval needs. I hope it eliminates one of our biggest Achilles heel - depleting sub numbers and ensures this problem doesn't arise again in the future.