Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Blademaster]

So we'll use the lesson learnt on 21st October, 1805 to plan for our war of 2040? Ask Horatio Nelson, what do he think of the idea of an flying vehicle with rotating blades dropping self guided rockets that go underwater and a small boat, without a crew that can fire a self guided rocket to take down that aircraft with rotating blade. He'll have the best laugh of his life

With every two hands on deck there comes a mouth to feed, a lump of flesh to save from fire, NBC and give medical support. And space for it to sleep. With every eight hands you need one life raft.

I guess every single navy in the world from USA, to Korea, to China, to France, to Germany, to Japan is stupid. Armies too, who keep replacing the loader with an auto-loader and truck drivers with self driving UGVs.

You couldn't be farther away from the truth. Machinery or robot is no replacement for an able seasoned crewman.

 

[shade2]

So y'all memberaans may know all this, but I didn't know much about Barak-8 MR/LRSAM development so did some digging, found this nice article here.

India & Israel's Barak-8 SAM Development Project(s) - Defense Industry Daily

Barak-8 concept (click to view full) Over a development timeline measured in decades, India's indigenous "Akash" and "Trishul" programs for surface to air missiles have failed to inspire full confidence. Trishul was eventually canceled entirely. Akash had a a long, difficult development period...

www.defenseindustrydaily.com

It has info about the development and also has a timeline from 2006 onwards.

They also have links to ancient( 2011 ) LiveFist articles, which can't be seen now but the pictures can be found still, one of which is this DRDO slide, which shows workshare between us and the Yahoodis.

More On The Indo-Israeli LR-SAM / Barak-8 - Livefist

www.livefistdefence.com

EXCLUSIVE: Indo-Israeli LRSAM Range Extended By A Third - Livefist

The Indo-Israeli LRSAM/Barak-8 began its first hot trials with the Israeli Navy in May this year. In what could be the single most significant development in the weapon system's long-drawn journey, the Indian Navy has confirmed to Livefist that the LRSAM will sport an operational range a third...

www.livefistdefence.com

TLDR is Jooz made the seeker, electronics and MF-STAR radar, we made two-pulse rocket motor, TVC and actuation for the fins

 

[Blood+]

You couldn't be farther away from the truth. Machinery or robot is no replacement for an able seasoned crewman.

The point is to strike a proper balance between the two. And he's definitely not as far away from truth as you're making out to be.

 

[Dharmocrat]

Name checks out.

?

Didn't understand what you meant there.

 

[Dharmocrat]

So we'll use the lesson learnt on 21st October, 1805 to plan for our war of 2040? Ask Horatio Nelson, what do he think of the idea of an flying vehicle with rotating blades dropping self guided rockets that go underwater and a small boat, without a crew that can fire a self guided rocket to take down that aircraft with rotating blade. He'll have the best laugh of his life

With every two hands on deck there comes a mouth to feed, a lump of flesh to save from fire, NBC and give medical support. And space for it to sleep. With every eight hands you need one life raft.

I guess every single navy in the world from USA, to Korea, to China, to France, to Germany, to Japan is stupid. Armies too, who keep replacing the loader with an auto-loader and truck drivers with self driving UGVs.

But the downsides you mentioned are far outweighed by upsides of having redundancy in manpower.

Being ready for war is always a trade-off between competing things.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Trend? Naah, never heard of her
Is she beautiful!?

 

[DancingPeacock]

I usually read on other forums, that folks in UK, Australia are finding tough to field enough men on ships because the recruitment is low. Here, we don't have that problem. The thing is the high automation-low crew is rather driven by necessity due to lack of manpower than some exotic feature that need to be there.

 

[Blood+]

View attachment 21567
Trend? Naah, never heard of her
Is she beautiful!?

To be fair, even the latest flights of Arleigh Burke DDGs come with 300 men strong crew compliment.

 

[Ayan Barat]

To be fair, even the latest flights of Arleigh Burke DDGs come with 300 men strong crew compliment.

Yeah but despite being the latest flight, the overall design of Arleigh Bruke is still pretty old. Compare the stats of Zumwalt

More or less every single navy is looking to cut it's size, reasons are different but there's a clear trend

 

[Blademaster]

The point is to strike a proper balance between the two. And he's definitely not as far away from truth as you're making out to be.

Nope. In times of battle damage, robots turn out to be more of a hindrance because they cannot adapt to the chaos and damage unfolding around them. You need able crewmen to resiliently ride it out and remain combat effective.

 

[Blood+]

Nope. In times of battle damage, robots turn out to be more of a hindrance because they cannot adapt to the chaos and damage unfolding around them.

As I said, point is to strike a proper balance. I mean if I had to make a choice between 40 extra crewmen and 32 SAMs, then I would choose the SAMs over the men 11 out of 10.

You need able crewmen to resiliently ride it out and remain combat effective.

Of course, but I'd rather not be hit at all, if I can help it.

 

[shade2]

Yeah but despite being the latest flight, the overall design of Arleigh Bruke is still pretty old. Compare the stats of Zumwalt

More or less every single navy is looking to cut it's size, reasons are different but there's a clear trend

Most navies worth a damn are of the Western sort, or adjacent like Japan and SoKo
And all of them are having troubles with holding recruits( they hire in good amounts but most rejine )

No surprise they are pushing automation.

View attachment 21567
Trend? Naah, never heard of her
Is she beautiful!?

Even in your tonnage-to-dudes ratio table, there is a suspicious absence of the Type-XX ships that a certain other highly-populous nation has...

Also there is this weird 10000 ton German "frigate" with only 16 anti-air VLS cells, even the foreign defense patrakars in the article below don't exactly know why, it has also a complement of ~100 guys, so it's not as if all that empty space is going for king-sized beds for sailors.

German Navy Confirms Its Supersized Frigate Will Avoid The Red Sea

Strictly limited air defense armament has long been a puzzling feature of the German F125 class frigate. Strictly limited air defense armament has long been a puzzling feature of the German F125 class frigate.

www.twz.com

Of course the chindigiri of German defense spending is legendary even in the chindi-central continent of EU.


Anyway I think the "Empty Space" on IN ships is a result of poverty and judicious spending of budgets for moar ships instead of moar missiles on ships, which "will be added later in MLU" and NOT because the empty space is being used to house the crew.

 

[Ayan Barat]

The thing is the high automation-low crew is rather driven by necessity due to lack of manpower

Absolutely true, there is no denying that availability of manpower and then training of them, which is a time consuming process is one of the biggest driver of increase in automation.

some exotic feature that need to be there.

But this is also absolutely false.
Take this example of a simple helicopter landing

View: https://youtu.be/PRNkf99_3L0
- the two guys coordinating the landing can be easily replaced by a high-performance LiDAR systems that automatically handles the whole landing sequence no matter how rough the seas are. And this is not some exotic feature, this is the standard method through which UAVs regularly land
- the two guys running up to secure the helicopter can be replaced by a deck lock type harpoon system. It's fast and there's no hazard for the crew
- after the landing, two guys you'd run up to it and together everyone would physically push the helicopter inside the hangar. All this can be replaced by just one guy with a towing robot

Also the scenario of damage control by more ingenious humans, that's being mentioned so many times would perhaps be even more effective in an automated ship. As humans would be freed from these menial jobs, they would be able to focus more on things like damage control and evacuation.

@shade2
I guess you're talking about PLAN ship? Calculate the ratio yourself and tell me, are they falling under "the rule" or "the exception"
12,000t Type-055 with a crew of 300

The reason I didn't include them is because it's tough to get reliable numbers for Chinese assets

 

[Bleh]

So y'all memberaans may know all this, but I didn't know much about Barak-8 MR/LRSAM development so did some digging, found this nice article here.

India & Israel's Barak-8 SAM Development Project(s) - Defense Industry Daily

Barak-8 concept (click to view full) Over a development timeline measured in decades, India's indigenous "Akash" and "Trishul" programs for surface to air missiles have failed to inspire full confidence. Trishul was eventually canceled entirely. Akash had a a long, difficult development period...

www.defenseindustrydaily.com

It has info about the development and also has a timeline from 2006 onwards.

They also have links to ancient( 2011 ) LiveFist articles, which can't be seen now but the pictures can be found still, one of which is this DRDO slide, which shows workshare between us and the Yahoodis.

More On The Indo-Israeli LR-SAM / Barak-8 - Livefist

www.livefistdefence.com

EXCLUSIVE: Indo-Israeli LRSAM Range Extended By A Third - Livefist

The Indo-Israeli LRSAM/Barak-8 began its first hot trials with the Israeli Navy in May this year. In what could be the single most significant development in the weapon system's long-drawn journey, the Indian Navy has confirmed to Livefist that the LRSAM will sport an operational range a third...

www.livefistdefence.com

View attachment 21562


TLDR is Jooz made the seeker, electronics and MF-STAR radar, we made two-pulse rocket motor, TVC and actuation for the fins

View attachment 21563

Is that NGD glimpse?!!!!

 

[shade2]

Is that NGD glimpse?!!!!

No, everything in the images is like 10+ years old.

Anyone btw know when the P-17A Nilgiri class official renders and official physical model was displayed?

 

[Fatalis]

No, everything in the images is like 10+ years old.

Anyone btw know when the P-17A Nilgiri class official renders and official physical model was displayed?

The silhouette was displayed in 2012 and the model was showcased in 2018.