Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Binayak95]

About the crew vs automation debate.

Read about them, had some thoughts I would like to place here.

The Japs, the Europeans and the SoKos are reducing crew not for maximising weapon fitment or to increase survivability or any other reason - they are reducing them because they find it increasingly impossible to man the ships they are building.

Heck the RN cant even man existing ships, and several of the Type 23s (excellent fucking ships - last of the once great British design and build yards) are laid up for lack of crew. Same is the fate with their nuke sub fleet.

so, lets get that out of the way - they are reducing crew strength out of sheer desperation.

Why do we have highish crew numbers - because WE CAN. It is always helpful to have extra hands on paper, if not in reality. Nearly every ship sails with 90 - 95 % of on paper strength, thanks to leaves, sickness, TDs, etc etc.

And in actual operations, every crew position should ideally have 3 men/women. To operate in shifts and maintain peak performance. IN can still a 6 shift watch cycle thanks to this crew numbers (the offrs get fucked - ask me how i know and there's a story of a grumpy XO doing goddamn fire drills during Dog Watch)

 

[shade2]

View: https://x.com/Aditya_G_Social/status/1878010781305872823

Comparison between Shivalik and Nilgiri side profiles

Shivalik



Nilgiri



They have increased the deck height as i make out from eyeballing so no need for raised platform for VLS and all anymore

 

[DancingPeacock]

IAI must be paying A LOT AND A LOT of bribes to keep securing orders for MFSTAR and delaying India's own AESA progress.

BEL seems to be running the gravy train, but DRDO could have easily tied up with companies like Astra Microwave or Data Patterns. Instead, we have this PSU dog-and-pony show.


Production DPSUs should never have been given independent status instead of being directly under DRDO. That was a mistake. Now, foreign products keep making their way into this corrupt system.


I know exactly how it works—by the time the babus figure it out, foreign vendors come in with their upgraded versions, launching gravy train 2.0. How exactly does BEL plan to build its capability? It's been 10 years, and we're still importing these things.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

View: https://x.com/Aditya_G_Social/status/1878010781305872823

Comparison between Shivalik and Nilgiri side profiles

Shivalik

View attachment 21633

Nilgiri

View attachment 21634

They have increased the deck height as i make out from eyeballing so no need for raised platform for VLS and all anymore

 

[Blood+]

About the crew vs automation debate.

Read about them, had some thoughts I would like to place here.

The Japs, the Europeans and the SoKos are reducing crew not for maximising weapon fitment or to increase survivability or any other reason - they are reducing them because they find it increasingly impossible to man the ships they are building.

Heck the RN cant even man existing ships, and several of the Type 23s (excellent fucking ships - last of the once great British design and build yards) are laid up for lack of crew. Same is the fate with their nuke sub fleet.

so, lets get that out of the way - they are reducing crew strength out of sheer desperation.

Why do we have highish crew numbers - because WE CAN. It is always helpful to have extra hands on paper, if not in reality. Nearly every ship sails with 90 - 95 % of on paper strength, thanks to leaves, sickness, TDs, etc etc.

And in actual operations, every crew position should ideally have 3 men/women. To operate in shifts and maintain peak performance. IN can still a 6 shift watch cycle thanks to this crew numbers (the offrs get fucked - ask me how i know and there's a story of a grumpy XO doing goddamn fire drills during Dog Watch)

Then why leave so much deck space just empty??

 

[Bleh]

Is this the design for NGC? The superstructure & the MF-STAR Panel are visibly different from P-17A.

View attachment 21598

View attachment 21597

@Adm_Kenobi @Binayak95

From here:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Isq-SWbGeQ

Lovely!

since any UVLs we make needs to accomodate brahmos i used the UVLM here.which one looks better?

Right one is not possible. The hull starts narrowing at the front & it can't fit BraHmos' length at the sides.

 

[Blood+]

Lovely!


Right one is not possible. The hull starts narrowing at the front & it can't fit BraHmos' length at the sides.

It'd be if they raised that section of the deck.

 

[Binayak95]

Then why leave so much deck space just empty??

Paise.

And waiting on NGCM + VL SRSAM production

 

[Blood+]

Paise.

And waiting on NGCM + VL SRSAM production

I Get that but why not install the VLS modules and leave them empty until adquate funds can be arranged??

 

[Ayan Barat]

Comparison between Shivalik and Nilgiri side profiles
Shivalik

Nilgiri

They have increased the deck height as i make out from eyeballing so no need for raised platform for VLS and all anymore

The only thing common between them is their similar displacement.

Shivalik is the link between completely Soviet designed vessels and indigenously designed one; it's like an upgraded Talwar. And it's also the point from where we started to focus more on RCS reduction. Same Fregat, arm launcher, weird mast as Talwars but better ADS and significantly improved stealth, interestingly if the bow and mast is modified even a bit then Shivalik might be the most stealthy ship designed here. The silhouette is extremely simple

Corvus is like 99% accurate with his explanation of merging...

Now comes P-15 Alpha and we move quite far from Soviet design. Most of the weapons and doctrines are still Soviet but the design has now changed. And this exact same layout is used again on Bravos. But even more interestingly, it's used in Nilgiris too albeit by shortening a bit. Take a P-15, select the area around second smokestack...

...and delete it.

And there you go, that's more or less what's Nilgiri is.
This is the reason I call them P-15 Charlie.

 

[Gslv Mk3]

The only thing common between them is their similar displacement.

Shivalik is the link between completely Soviet designed vessels and indigenously designed one; it's like an upgraded Talwar. And it's also the point from where we started to focus more on RCS reduction. Same Fregat, arm launcher, weird mast as Talwars but better ADS and significantly improved stealth, interestingly if the bow and mast is modified even a bit then Shivalik might be the most stealthy ship designed here. The silhouette is extremely simple
View attachment 21638
Corvus is like 99% accurate with his explanation of merging...

Now comes P-15 Alpha and we move quite far from Soviet design. Most of the weapons and doctrines are still Soviet but the design has now changed. And this exact same layout is used again on Bravos. But even more interestingly, it's used in Nilgiris too albeit by shortening a bit. Take a P-15, select the area around second smokestack...
View attachment 21639
...and delete it.
View attachment 21640
And there you go, that's more or less what's Nilgiri is.
This is the reason I call them P-15 Charlie.

You couldn't be more wrong.

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

View: https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1878683718837322000

 

[shade2]

Paise.

And waiting on NGCM + VL SRSAM production

NGCM is the Nirbhay LACM or NASM-MR?

This is the reason I call them P-15 Charlie.

I wouldn't be surprised if P-17B ends up being looking almost sem2sem like P15-A/B but with a refined design for more stealth, supposedly it will be 7k-8k tons , would expect some more VLS also.

Considering NGD will be a clean-sheet 10k+ ton cruiser design, this would make sense.

View: https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1878683718837322000

Is there any news on the status of the Nilgiris made by GRSE?

 

[shade2]

Looks to be a very capable ship. Very likely to be the reason why NGMV are so gimped in their firepower by comparison.

What do you think are the possibilities of a repeat order of more NGMV ?

Current order is only 6 ships but there are ~12 Khurkri,Kora and Veer class corvette/missile boat in service with IN, across these classes also some ~8 boats were gifted or decommissioned, so peak missile boat strength of IN would be ~20 missile boats.

Perhaps we will see more when NASM-MR development is complete and inducted by IN? current bottleneck i think is the cost of missiles

 

[vampyrbladez]

There seems to be 2x4=8 Per One side. I think you didn't count the other side which is hidden from this view. Those launchers seem to be too small for , maybe -NG? Or NASM-MR? ITCM?

Which ship design are you referring to? The NGC?

Just like how the NGMV went from 4x2 midship NASM-ER/KH-35 to 2x2 bow launcher based BrahMos, I expect the NGC to end up with BrahMos due to availability and logistics.

 

[Blood+]

What do you think are the possibilities of a repeat order of more NGMV ?

Current order is only 6 ships but there are ~12 Khurkri,Kora and Veer class corvette/missile boat in service with IN, across these classes also some ~8 boats were gifted or decommissioned, so peak missile boat strength of IN would be ~20 missile boats.

Perhaps we will see more when NASM-MR development is complete and inducted by IN? current bottleneck i think is the cost of missiles

By the way, has anyone yet figured out what's so "Next Generation" about these missile vessels?? I mean seriously, what am I missing here, folks??

 

[vampyrbladez]

What do you think are the possibilities of a repeat order of more NGMV ?

Current order is only 6 ships but there are ~12 Khurkri,Kora and Veer class corvette/missile boat in service with IN, across these classes also some ~8 boats were gifted or decommissioned, so peak missile boat strength of IN would be ~20 missile boats.

Perhaps we will see more when NASM-MR development is complete and inducted by IN? current bottleneck i think is the cost of missiles

I don't see much chance of this happening.

• Growth of Naval Mission Plan

Indian Navy is moving towards a blue water navy similar to NATO and the PLAN with large numbers of Destroyers and Frigates to escort CBG and for theatre defense.

The Khukri, Kora and Veer class were part of Anti-Access/Area-Denial strategies from the 1980s-90s when our frigates were still being built in Russia. These were also entirely Pakistan specific.

From the below excerpt we can see that the Indian Navy in the 1980s had focused on missile corvettes to maintain fleet numbers. Now this seems inadequate given that we have been de-hyphenated from Pakistan and integrated with Indo-Pacific.

These vessels were originally conceived as a class of 12 units, being divided into three sub-classes of anti-air, anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare platforms. However due to budgetary constraints and extensive delays in construction & weapons supplies, the number has been revised downwards.

https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/navy/equipment/specs/project-25a/

• Shipyard Productivity and Fleet Inductions

The below table with approximations for ship commissioning shows that in the years 2033-2034, there may be no significant warship inductions (excluding submarines).

Commissioning Year/Ship Class	Ship Type	2024	2025	2026	2027	2028	2029	2030	2031	2032	2033	2034	2035	2036	2037	2038	2039	2040
Vishakhapatnam Class	Destroyer		1
Talwar Class (Batch III)	Frigate	1	1	1	1
Nilgiri Class	Frigate		2	2	2	1
P 17B Class	Frigate							2	3	2
NGMV	Corvette				1	2	2	1
NGC	Corvette						1	2	3	2
NGOPV	OPV					1	2	2	3	3
P 18A/B	Destroyer												1	2	2	3	2
Total	(-)	1	4	3	4	3	3	5	6	4	0	0	1	2	2	3	2	0

MDL and GRSE will be busy with P 17B and P 18A/B which leaves only CSL and GSL. CSL will most likely be busy with IAC-II which leaves only GSL and Pipavav Shipyard.

GSL is learning the ropes regarding Frigate construction from Talwar (Batch III). Another possibility of a Talwar Class follow on NGF (Next Generation Frigate) like the Japanese Mogami Class will occupy it's production capacity.

As for Pipavav, the less said the better.

 

[shade2]

As for Pipavav, the less said the better.

I think missile boats in good numbers still have a role to play but then Navy knows best on how to spend their funding, especially since the funding bottleneck is the "missile" not the boat.

Pipavav meanwhile is idle for past 5-6 years, only recently a textile company called Swan Energy managed to buy it last year since chota Ambani went bankrupt.

So I don't think they were in the picture, the Private Sector Shipyard role has been taken over by L&T Katupalli, they are building "Multi Purpose Vessels", OPVs and Coast Guard ships last i checked, they may build Corvettes in the future also if Navy is impressed.

Anyway it's good Navy placing large orders now and distributed between two shipyards, so from this we get

Destroyers/Cruisers, Frigates, Corvettes :- MDL, GRSE
Corvettes, Frigates only :- GSL
Corvettes only :- CSL, L&T Katupalli possible.
Replenishment Ship, LHD/LPD :- HSL, L&T Katupalli
Carrier :- CSL
Conventional Submarines :- MDL, but maybe L&T Katupalli is possible also.

 

[shade2]

Another promo video for INS Nilgiri, with some extra seconds of footage showing it being built and also opening of VLS cells and the sailors loading shells for the 76mm gun


View: https://x.com/IN_WNC/status/1878691277816107350

 

[shade2]

Y'all nibbiars, are these new "Mothership" Minehunter vessels a full replacement for the current "Minesweeper" boats with FRP hulls?

Navy seems to be interested in such ships, article is from 2023

India Launches Hunt for New MCM Vessels - Naval News

India is currently without a single MCM vessel. The Indian Navy is now looking at procuring MCM motherships.

www.navalnews.com

The Italians also have a hybrid design of the same FRP hull with sweeper plus all the drones in development

Intermarine Wins Contract for Italian Navy's New Generation MCM Vessel - Naval News

Intermarine, a company in the Immsi industrial group (IMS.MI), has signed a contract to study "risk reduction and definition of the project for a new-generation minehunter" for the Italian Navy.

www.navalnews.com

Basically is this new method of use drones to find and blow up mines from a safe distance a straight upgrade over the earlier method of dragging the "sweep" to cut mines from the seabed and then shoot at them from the ship's guns, or are there any drawbacks?