Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

Ayan Barat said:
There are discrepancies on the price and also buzz of it going above the budget.
pib.gov.in

Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd launches third Stealth Frigate of Project 17A ‘TARAGIRI’

Mumbai, 11 September 2022 Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd (MDL) launched the third Stealth Fri
pib.gov.in


Kusha will be used to shoot fighter and subsonic threats; it's more or less a 1:1 replacement of Barak-8. It's literally what's it's lowest tier missile is supposed to do.
View attachment 22149

• People are currently having problems with managing the hot launch of Astra from a VLS and SMART has atleast 3,000kg solid propellant.

• But let's assume you somehow make a VLS for that. SMART is based on the schema of Sagarika/Shaurya/Pralay which is already quite long; 9m to be precise. Replace the small compact warhead with a 3m long torpedo and it gets even longer. If we consider the diameter to be 0.75m (typical for this family) the length becomes almost 13m.
View attachment 22152

• That's not all; in cold launching the length of the canister is pretty much the length of the missile and the length of the VLS is pretty much the length of the canister. But in hot launching you need an additional plenum chamber below the missile canister so that exhaust pressure can be reduced otherwise the whole VLS would suffer a catastrophic failure. So add a meter or two for plenum chamber.
View attachment 22153

Vishakhapatnam has a draft 6.5m and already requires a substantial superstructure to accommodate the 9m long BrahMos. We've 6 more metres to account for now.

The only place you can use for this long of a VLS would be adjacent to the hangar but then again you'd have other complications with it. Also this loadout of 16 would decrease, may be even get halved.

Not nations, just USA.
USA has approximately 9,000 VLS cell, all interchangeable and dispersed everywhere from Gulf to SCS...yet only in October, 2024 they managed to pull off this feat.

The abysmal cells we currently have are most of the time empty because the production rate and high cost doesn't justify "wasting" missiles by deploying them on ships.
View attachment 22160
So having at sea replenishment capability for just 40 or so ships, armed with three different types of missiles is bit of a far cry given our current priorities.

Well it's bit hard to predict because well...VUCA. Current forecast for 2030 is around 7 trillion, but let's just assume it touches 10 trillion.

But even then, it's not how defence budget works.
• currently defence budget is around 2% of GDP so it'd be just 200bn. For an idea, in USA it's 3.5% and in Poland where the national sentiment is of an immediate war, it's 4.7%

2% is already substantial for a nation where more than half of the population is in villages...bump it to 3% without an eminent war and people would start protesting.

• But for the sake of argument, let's say it's 250bn. Then also it's not as simple as dividing 250 by 3 to get 80 for Navy and now Navy would buy missiles worth 80 billion.

In India typically almost 30% of budget goes to pay, 15% to sustenance, 20% for pensions and in remaining you have things like ECHS, coastal security, R&D...ultimately it's just around 30% for capital acquisition.

45% (capital acquisition + sustenance) of 250bn would be 112bn. This the amount you're left with to both buy new guns and ammunition for existing guns; but it's aggregate. So now we'll do the ⅓ you did earlier...37bn.

tl;dr: It's really heartwarming to see "bloody civilians" showing interest in DefTech; especially tinkering with ideas because it eans even if 99 of those ideas are dumb; then also there might be one worth filing an IPR. But as I've always said this, please don't ignore SWaP constraints and the capital requirements.
Click to expand...

We a 5m long. VLS for 4m VL-SRSAM & MRSAM/Kusha basic, another single-UVLS for both 6m long BraHmos-NG & Nirbhay... An 10m long one for rear of large Destroyers for SMART (rocket powered so torpedos need not be very long), Ship-launched BMs & BMDs (how long is LRAShM?)
indias-growing-and-evolving-ballistic-missile-arsenal-v0-usqajxgnv79a1.webp

That should work. Sabko ek hi gand me dalne se modern nahi ho jayenge, bas complications will increase.
 
Bleh said:
An 10m long one for rear of large Destroyers for SMART (rocket powered so torpedos need not be very long)
Click to expand...
My Guy, I SMART itself is 13m. With VLS it should be 15m. Unless you use a completely different rocket motor, it's no way going to be 10m.
Bleh said:
Ship-launched BMs & BMDs (how long is LRAShM?)
Click to expand...
LR-AShM launch canister is 14m long so with a proper VLS it should be around 16m.

This is from September, where I proposed the ideal loadout:
Ayan Barat said:
But for Vishakhapatnam it's 17.4m and 6.5m. So the best way to add bigger missile is to simply store them horizontally and erect them before launching.
Click to expand...
Mid-ship you've space for four erector launcher, installed laterally to use it for specialised roles like say ASh-BM or ASAT or ABM. This would be only in large destroyers.

And for all large ships, in the bow you've one unified VLS for these six missile types with VL-SRSAM being quad packed.
Ayan Barat said:
A more realistic VLS loadout should be
• BrahMos as AShM
• Nirbhay as LACM
• Kusha as layered ADS
• VL-SRSAM as last layer ADS

You don't need anything more than this
Click to expand...
I now seriously wish that some minor incident happens like some fishing boat comes too close to a frigate or a Chinese UUV get washed up on some coast.
Guys here desperately need a distraction from the current VLSMaxxing.
 
GhciwzOXAAAdvcV
 
Power Struggle in the Indian Ocean: India vs. China

India has risen to meet China’s challenge of asserting dominance in the Indian Ocean, strengthening its presence from the Malacca Strait to Africa’s eastern seaboard. With a fleet of 140 warships, including domestically built stealth ships, aircraft carriers, and submarines, India is strategically positioned to dominate the region.

Geography offers India a decisive advantage. Its naval and airbase near the entrance of the Malacca Strait effectively controls this critical chokepoint. Any Chinese naval confrontation in the Indian Ocean would face significant hurdles. Chinese missiles targeting Indian warships fired from the mainland would struggle with accuracy or risk being intercepted.

China’s Position in the Indian Ocean

China may boast the world’s largest navy, but much of its fleet is hastily constructed on copied designs. Critically, Chinese sailors and admirals lack deep-sea experience and have never fought a significant naval battle. Their focus has largely been on intimidating neighbors like Taiwan, Vietnam, and the Philippines.

China’s capability to project power into the Indian Ocean—over 2,500 miles from its home ports—is limited. While it could deploy up to 10 submarines to intimidate, these vessels face operational challenges far from home. Submarines would need to resupply and recharge, making them vulnerable to Indian surveillance aircraft like the P-8I and missiles.

India’s growing capabilities, including the addition of MQ-9B drones in the coming years, will further bolster its surveillance and strike power. Any Chinese surface ship detected in these waters could face a swift attack by BrahMos missiles.

Strategic Vulnerabilities for China

China’s options for entering the Indian Ocean are limited. Any armada attempting to pass through the Malacca Strait would likely be intercepted, while alternate routes through Indonesian waters would be easily detected and countered.

Although China has nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers, their operational reliability remains uncertain, making it unlikely they would risk venturing into the Indian Ocean. Instead, China primarily relies on commercial, survey, or surveillance vessels in the region, keeping 9 to 15 such ships active.

During a confrontation, Chinese ships would require docking permissions at ports in Colombo, Myanmar, the Maldives, Djibouti, or Gwadar. Except for Gwadar, it is improbable that such permissions would be granted, leaving China further isolated.

India’s Naval Might


The Indian Navy stands as a formidable force, small in size but highly trained, well-equipped, and battle-tested. It boasts a range of advanced assets, including nuclear-powered submarines, diesel-electric submarines, stealth destroyers, frigates, and two aircraft carriers that will soon be augmented by the addition of naval Rafale aircraft. In addition the recent addition of INS Surat, Nilgiri, Vagsheer has added muscle to it.

The Navy’s surveillance and intelligence capabilities are on par with the world’s leading navies, enabling it to effectively monitor and respond to threats. Its arsenal includes the highly lethal BrahMos missile, Barak missiles, the Kusha layered air defense system, heavyweight torpedoes, K4 and K5 missiles from its nuclear submarines, and advanced anti-ship missiles such as Harpoon and Exocet. In addition a host of guns are positioned on all ships. Its supply ship within its operational radius can deliver supplies with ease. Hence, despite limited numbers, these advanced and battle-proven weapons and ships ensure the Indian Navy’s potency in any conflict.

Furthermore, the Indian Navy has a proven track record of engaging adversaries successfully, showcasing its operational readiness and tactical expertise.

Conclusion

In the event of a naval confrontation between India and China in the Indian Ocean, the outcome would be clear. While China may seek to intimidate, the Indian Navy’s readiness, superior tactics, and proven capabilities would likely compel a swift retreat by the enemy.
1737130387848.webp
 
Hari Sud said:
Power Struggle in the Indian Ocean: India vs. China

India has risen to meet China’s challenge of asserting dominance in the Indian Ocean, strengthening its presence from the Malacca Strait to Africa’s eastern seaboard. With a fleet of 140 warships, including domestically built stealth ships, aircraft carriers, and submarines, India is strategically positioned to dominate the region.

Geography offers India a decisive advantage. Its naval and airbase near the entrance of the Malacca Strait effectively controls this critical chokepoint. Any Chinese naval confrontation in the Indian Ocean would face significant hurdles. Chinese missiles targeting Indian warships fired from the mainland would struggle with accuracy or risk being intercepted.

China’s Position in the Indian Ocean

China may boast the world’s largest navy, but much of its fleet is hastily constructed on copied designs. Critically, Chinese sailors and admirals lack deep-sea experience and have never fought a significant naval battle. Their focus has largely been on intimidating neighbors like Taiwan, Vietnam, and the Philippines.

China’s capability to project power into the Indian Ocean—over 2,500 miles from its home ports—is limited. While it could deploy up to 10 submarines to intimidate, these vessels face operational challenges far from home. Submarines would need to resupply and recharge, making them vulnerable to Indian surveillance aircraft like the P-8I and missiles.

India’s growing capabilities, including the addition of MQ-9B drones in the coming years, will further bolster its surveillance and strike power. Any Chinese surface ship detected in these waters could face a swift attack by BrahMos missiles.

Strategic Vulnerabilities for China

China’s options for entering the Indian Ocean are limited. Any armada attempting to pass through the Malacca Strait would likely be intercepted, while alternate routes through Indonesian waters would be easily detected and countered.

Although China has nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers, their operational reliability remains uncertain, making it unlikely they would risk venturing into the Indian Ocean. Instead, China primarily relies on commercial, survey, or surveillance vessels in the region, keeping 9 to 15 such ships active.

During a confrontation, Chinese ships would require docking permissions at ports in Colombo, Myanmar, the Maldives, Djibouti, or Gwadar. Except for Gwadar, it is improbable that such permissions would be granted, leaving China further isolated.

India’s Naval Might


The Indian Navy stands as a formidable force, small in size but highly trained, well-equipped, and battle-tested. It boasts a range of advanced assets, including nuclear-powered submarines, diesel-electric submarines, stealth destroyers, frigates, and two aircraft carriers that will soon be augmented by the addition of naval Rafale aircraft. In addition the recent addition of INS Surat, Nilgiri, Vagsheer has added muscle to it.

The Navy’s surveillance and intelligence capabilities are on par with the world’s leading navies, enabling it to effectively monitor and respond to threats. Its arsenal includes the highly lethal BrahMos missile, Barak missiles, the Kusha layered air defense system, heavyweight torpedoes, K4 and K5 missiles from its nuclear submarines, and advanced anti-ship missiles such as Harpoon and Exocet. In addition a host of guns are positioned on all ships. Its supply ship within its operational radius can deliver supplies with ease. Hence, despite limited numbers, these advanced and battle-proven weapons and ships ensure the Indian Navy’s potency in any conflict.

Furthermore, the Indian Navy has a proven track record of engaging adversaries successfully, showcasing its operational readiness and tactical expertise.

Conclusion

In the event of a naval confrontation between India and China in the Indian Ocean, the outcome would be clear. While China may seek to intimidate, the Indian Navy’s readiness, superior tactics, and proven capabilities would likely compel a swift retreat by the enemy.
View attachment 22230
Click to expand...

All our arguments focus on Chings in Indian Ocean

How about Indian Navy in SCS? :troll:

Ofc I mean as a part of Quad + SoKo Navies, not alone.

Can we spare a small expeditionary fleet for that purpose or are our ships still not enough?
 
Hari Sud said:
Power Struggle in the Indian Ocean: India vs. China

India has risen to meet China’s challenge of asserting dominance in the Indian Ocean, strengthening its presence from the Malacca Strait to Africa’s eastern seaboard. With a fleet of 140 warships, including domestically built stealth ships, aircraft carriers, and submarines, India is strategically positioned to dominate the region.

Geography offers India a decisive advantage. Its naval and airbase near the entrance of the Malacca Strait effectively controls this critical chokepoint. Any Chinese naval confrontation in the Indian Ocean would face significant hurdles. Chinese missiles targeting Indian warships fired from the mainland would struggle with accuracy or risk being intercepted.

China’s Position in the Indian Ocean

China may boast the world’s largest navy, but much of its fleet is hastily constructed on copied designs. Critically, Chinese sailors and admirals lack deep-sea experience and have never fought a significant naval battle. Their focus has largely been on intimidating neighbors like Taiwan, Vietnam, and the Philippines.

China’s capability to project power into the Indian Ocean—over 2,500 miles from its home ports—is limited. While it could deploy up to 10 submarines to intimidate, these vessels face operational challenges far from home. Submarines would need to resupply and recharge, making them vulnerable to Indian surveillance aircraft like the P-8I and missiles.

India’s growing capabilities, including the addition of MQ-9B drones in the coming years, will further bolster its surveillance and strike power. Any Chinese surface ship detected in these waters could face a swift attack by BrahMos missiles.

Strategic Vulnerabilities for China

China’s options for entering the Indian Ocean are limited. Any armada attempting to pass through the Malacca Strait would likely be intercepted, while alternate routes through Indonesian waters would be easily detected and countered.

Although China has nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers, their operational reliability remains uncertain, making it unlikely they would risk venturing into the Indian Ocean. Instead, China primarily relies on commercial, survey, or surveillance vessels in the region, keeping 9 to 15 such ships active.

During a confrontation, Chinese ships would require docking permissions at ports in Colombo, Myanmar, the Maldives, Djibouti, or Gwadar. Except for Gwadar, it is improbable that such permissions would be granted, leaving China further isolated.

India’s Naval Might


The Indian Navy stands as a formidable force, small in size but highly trained, well-equipped, and battle-tested. It boasts a range of advanced assets, including nuclear-powered submarines, diesel-electric submarines, stealth destroyers, frigates, and two aircraft carriers that will soon be augmented by the addition of naval Rafale aircraft. In addition the recent addition of INS Surat, Nilgiri, Vagsheer has added muscle to it.

The Navy’s surveillance and intelligence capabilities are on par with the world’s leading navies, enabling it to effectively monitor and respond to threats. Its arsenal includes the highly lethal BrahMos missile, Barak missiles, the Kusha layered air defense system, heavyweight torpedoes, K4 and K5 missiles from its nuclear submarines, and advanced anti-ship missiles such as Harpoon and Exocet. In addition a host of guns are positioned on all ships. Its supply ship within its operational radius can deliver supplies with ease. Hence, despite limited numbers, these advanced and battle-proven weapons and ships ensure the Indian Navy’s potency in any conflict.

Furthermore, the Indian Navy has a proven track record of engaging adversaries successfully, showcasing its operational readiness and tactical expertise.

Conclusion

In the event of a naval confrontation between India and China in the Indian Ocean, the outcome would be clear. While China may seek to intimidate, the Indian Navy’s readiness, superior tactics, and proven capabilities would likely compel a swift retreat by the enemy.
View attachment 22230
Click to expand...

We use Harpoon & Exocet?!!
 
shade2 said:

View: https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/1174015087079649281



What is the rationale for this?
The patrakar here says that it is following the USN philosophy of single Helo ops
Click to expand...


Future VLS space on both sides. Towed Sonars will make helo-bourne anti-sub ops obsolete.

I've read they make a lot is of noise & are not the best way to listen to subs. Wonder why noone tried using sea-planse for the purpose? They can fly fast & far, land & shut engine & quietly dip Sonars & listening devices.
 
shade2 said:
Harpoons have been ordered for P8I, also torpedo tube launch from Shishumar/Type 209 submarines
Click to expand...
Wow, didn't know Shidhimars are missile-capable!

But which ship is the P-8i gonna shoot AShM at 😆 that slow fat detectable airliner?
 
Bleh said:
Wow, didn't know Shidhimars are missile-capable!

But which ship is the P-8i gonna shoot AShM at 😆 that slow fat detectable airliner?
Click to expand...

People say they can/should fire the harpoons at standoff distance, ofc this is a "SUPRISE MUTHAFUCKA" type of move, nobody will expose this thing and use it as a first line of offense against enemy warships

1737138032937.webp
 
Blademaster said:
IN should consider fitting Brahmos to P8I.
Click to expand...

America will never allow it.
Tomorrow the French would ask for kidney and liver in charges to integrate Roosi missiles onto the Rafale, but the Americans would allow no such thing whatever is paid for them.

If we do it without authorization you can imagine the consequences based on the behind the scenes arm-twisting they did because of L'affair Pannu.

Even if Brahmos was 100% Indian they wouldn't allow it.
 
shade2 said:
America will never allow it.
Tomorrow the French would ask for kidney and liver in charges to integrate Roosi missiles onto the Rafale, but the Americans would allow no such thing whatever is paid for them.

If we do it without authorization you can imagine the consequences based on the behind the scenes arm-twisting they did because of L'affair Pannu.

Even if Brahmos was 100% Indian they wouldn't allow it.
Click to expand...

We really don't need their permission.
 
Blademaster said:
We really don't need their permission.
Click to expand...
We don't but then we buy from them the following
  1. GE F404 Engines
  2. GE F414 Engine and local production
  3. GE LM2500+ Marine gas turbines
  4. Predator Drones
  5. Spares for all existing US platforms( Chinook, C17, C130, MH60R, P8I )
It will all be stopped if we do any violations to whatever end user agreement they made us sign.

Just to get our Kalvari/Scorpene subs to be able to fire the DRDO torpedo we had to recently pay the French some ~800 crore, It could be done ourselves but it would burn diplomatic relationships with the French.

Perhaps in the future we may make our own P8I equivalent from a consumer plane we will be then free to integrate what we want
 
Bleh said:
But which ship is the P-8i gonna shoot AShM at 😆 that slow fat detectable airliner?
Click to expand...
What modern NIJ Level III armour plate is going to stop a 9x19mm round? Yet all operators carry a semi auto pistol.

Similar is a case of P-8Is carrying Harpoons; they don't carry it to engage ships rather they carry it to have some sort of anti-surface weapon. There's a saying among airmen that not a single pilot has ever complained about having a gun on his plane despite not needing it, but there are numerous downed pilots because they didn't have a gun when they needed it.

There's a type of mission called CAP where the emphasis is on having as long of an endurance as possible with just enough armament to engage the adversary till your proper reinforcement arrives. Poseidons too fly more or less in CAP profile; extreme endurance with just 5-6 lightweight torpedoes to provide immediate response till reinforcement arrives. And at just $1.5 million a pop, Harpoons are an excellent general purpose anti-surface (I'm not using the word anti-ship) missiles for anything like a large kamikaze boat approaching your flotilla, a group of fast missile boats located, a surfaced submarine at a distance where torpedo would take too long to reach or it's in very shallow waters...you fire a Harpoon. A typical loadout of 4x Harpoon should be around the same price of a single Barak-8, so the USN uses it more like a longer ranged Hellfire than an anti-ship missile.

For dedicated Anti-Ship role, a P-8 can carry four LRASM
Screenshot_2025-01-17-23-56-47-71_6bcd734b3b4b52977458a65c801426b0.webp
Estimated range of 500km, a ship sinking 500kg warhead and highly stealthy.
 
shade2 said:
We don't but then we buy from them the following
  1. GE F404 Engines
  2. GE F414 Engine and local production
  3. GE LM2500+ Marine gas turbines
  4. Predator Drones
  5. Spares for all existing US platforms( Chinook, C17, C130, MH60R, P8I )
It will all be stopped if we do any violations to whatever end user agreement they made us sign.

Just to get our Kalvari/Scorpene subs to be able to fire the DRDO torpedo we had to recently pay the French some ~800 crore, It could be done ourselves but it would burn diplomatic relationships with the French.

Perhaps in the future we may make our own P8I equivalent from a consumer plane we will be then free to integrate what we want
Click to expand...

Well if they deny it, their Indian market will disappear. So I am not too worried. IN can add Brahmos to P8I without fear of US. You overestimate US.
 
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