Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[FalconSlayers]

View: https://x.com/KSingh_1469/status/1882273381971886486

 

[Bleh]

View: https://x.com/KSingh_1469/status/1882273381971886486

BTW ships were much older at 2000s. 2015 IN could kick the ass of 2005 IN.

I thought we already have 4 Arihant Class & atleast 2 Arighat Class India may have decided SSN is not so important right now. It's only true advantage is higher speed (which will create noise & render itself deaf during a sprint). Arming the Arihants with BraHmos as SSGNs will serve.

 

[Indianhawk]

Would you prefer to spend 20 lakh rupees to modify an old Maruti Esteem (Brahmaputra Class) or buy a Jeep Compass (Next Generation Corvette) for the same price.

Navy has already invested money in upgrade and re- powering. So this question doesn't arise.

 

[Indianhawk]

Assuming a contract signing in 2026, the first submarine will be induced in 2033. I don't foresee any delays since the capacity to build submarines won't be lost (3 follow on Kalvari Class submarines) unlike what happened last time.

Given the SSBN program, atleast 2 SSN under P 77 will be ready or in service by 2035.

Delays won't be related to build capacity but due to new design. Even if it's just lengthening of old design it will require many tests before production. Plus there is the whole issue of VLS integration.

Regarding SSN , navy chief himself is expecting 2036-37 for first boat to arrive.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

I thought we already have 4 Arihant Class

We do.

 

[Indianhawk]

View: https://x.com/KSingh_1469/status/1882273381971886486

Displacement has grown massively. so is firepower. Most importantly we now have consistent pipeline for future induction all indigenous. Also most of our shipyards are undergoing modernization and massive expansion which augurs well for future.

 

[Fatalis]

44 Years Later, India Chooses German U-Boats Again - Livefist

Nearly half a century after it chose to buy and build German Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) Type 209 submarines for its navy, India has down-selected a new generation submarine offering from the same shipbuilder to meet a requirement of six conventional India-built submarines under the...

www.livefistdefence.com

 

[Binayak95]

Not going to happen soon as I anticipate Navantia moving the courts .

Navantia and L&T never stood a chance. navantia is just not trusted within the IN for anything post two fiascoes - one with the Juan Carlos offering for Vikrant back in the ADS days, the other a tanker offering.

L&T made a bad bet - should have taken up with DCNS instead and offered a scorpene + program.

 

[Azaad]

Navantia and L&T never stood a chance. navantia is just not trusted within the IN for anything post two fiascoes - one with the Juan Carlos offering for Vikrant back in the ADS days, the other a tanker offering.

L&T made a bad bet - should have taken up with DCNS instead and offered a scorpene + program.

Navantia's there to make up the numbers . It was quite clear this entire tender was a fixed match in favour of TKMS once the Koreans were out , whose exit from this tender was sealed when TKMS either dragged the latter to court or threatened to do so for IPR infringement on the Indonesian submarine requirements ( you ought to read about it in case you aren't aware of it ) .

L&T would've been approached by IN to help them out by getting into a JV with Navantia to fructify Project 75(I) else this'd end up in a single vendor situation, for which L&T'd be repaid in some form later.

 

[Blademaster]

Which sub has the better hull and machinery aside from the AIP? Which sub has the better sonar? Which sub has the better weapons?

As for the AIP, I think IN will approach Navantia just for the AIP portion and see if the AIP technology can be applied to the sub later on.

Is Navantia offering a similar hull to the scorpene in a way that would allow commonality between IN's Scorpene subs and the S80 subs, allowing for ease of maintenance and spares supply?

 

[shade2]

View: https://x.com/KSingh_1469/status/1882273381971886486

Destroyers have increased since 2000s.
Frigates have also increased and will continue to increase( 6 more Nilgiri, 3x more Talwar ).
Corvettes will also increase, 16x ASW-SWC and six NGMV under construction.
We have 2x carriers and inshallah another should be approved by esteemed Ninda ji, who wants 3-5 more carriers.
2 Arihants are inducted, 2 have been launched and in trials

The only L in that table is Minesweepers, Admirals seem to have forgotten about it thinking exclusively about battle with PLAAN fleets on the high seas, till a Kanglu/Paki submarine lays mines in our harbors and they are not equipped to deal with those except those "clip on sweeps" they bought from Thales Australia.

If I was Admiral i'd do some Emergency Procurement and get some old-school minesweeper from our "friend" the Rooskies

 

[shade2]

Which sub has the better hull and machinery aside from the AIP? Which sub has the better sonar? Which sub has the better weapons?

As for the AIP, I think IN will approach Navantia just for the AIP portion and see if the AIP technology can be applied to the sub later on.

Is Navantia offering a similar hull to the scorpene in a way that would allow commonality between IN's Scorpene subs and the S80 subs, allowing for ease of maintenance and spares supply?

It's a larger version of the Scorpene hull in length and displacement but looks wise it is the same.

As for AIP, DRDO has it's own implementation under construction now, and Siemens AIP used in German Type 214 Submarines is the P R O V E N standard, by comparison Navantia is rolling it's own solution with an Ethanol reactor by their own Spanish company called Abegenoa, which uses cells from RTX Corporation, US to produce electricity, therefore no point in approaching Navantia for AIP portion.

Navantia sub's electronics including sonar and all made by US companies including LockheedMartin.
You can get the whole timeline for this sub including all the parts and origins of them from this Spanish wikipedia article

Clase S-80 Plus - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

es.wikipedia.org

In this deal the only benefit Navantia had over the Germans is their sub's length and displacement fitted the IN's requirements in that department( German submarines are smaller ), so they could purchase the Spanish design and use it for our Project 76 and integrate DRDO AIP and our own sonar and electronics on board.

 

[Blademaster]

It's a larger version of the Scorpene hull in length and displacement but looks wise it is the same.

As for AIP, DRDO has it's own implementation under construction now, and Siemens AIP used in German Type 214 Submarines is the P R O V E N standard, by comparison Navantia is rolling it's own solution with an Ethanol reactor by their own Spanish company called Abegenoa, which uses cells from RTX Corporation, US to produce electricity, therefore no point in approaching Navantia for AIP portion.

Navantia sub's electronics including sonar and all made by US companies including LockheedMartin.
You can get the whole timeline for this sub including all the parts and origins of them from this Spanish wikipedia article

Clase S-80 Plus - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

es.wikipedia.org

In this deal the only benefit Navantia had over the Germans is their sub's length and displacement fitted the IN's requirements in that department( German submarines are smaller ), so they could purchase the Spanish design and use it for our Project 76 and integrate DRDO AIP and our own sonar and electronics on board.

When you say it’s larger version, does that imply commonality for purposes of ease of maintenance and spares supply or it might as well be a different beast?

Considering that most subsystems on the S80 are American in origin that’s a huge black mark against it. I wouldn’t go for such weapons platforms that will be susceptible to US sanctions or shenanigans.

 

[shade2]

When you say it’s larger version, does that imply commonality for purposes of ease of maintenance and spares supply or it might as well be a different beast?

Considering that most subsystems on the S80 are American in origin that’s a huge black mark against it. I wouldn’t go for such weapons platforms that will be susceptible to US sanctions or shenanigans.

Can't comment on this with certainty but might as well be different, the development of this sub has taken like 15-20 years on the side of the Spaniards after the split with the French including one engineering clusterfuck including the sub being overweight, which they realized after it was built, and then they had to do a redesign.

GD to help fix Spanish Navy’s overweight issue of S-80 submarine

Navantia has selected General Dynamics (GD) Electric Boat to help fix the overweight issue of the first S-80 class submarine, Isaac Peral (S-81), for the Spanish Navy, Spain's Defence Ministry has confirmed.

www.naval-technology.com

Just incase you feel blackpilled about Indian Defense industry's delays and back and forth, you can bookmark read this Chronology of the S-80 Plus submarine of Spain

Clase S-80 Plus - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

es.wikipedia.org

They started construction in 2005 and in 2023 the first Submarines of this class was commissioned into the Spanish Navy


And yes, the ((( American ))) involvement in this is a major disadvantage, since In all likelihood we will need US approvals also, and if no American stuff is involved we'd have to pay Navantia more to integrate Indian hardware.

 

[Bleh]

Which sub has the better hull and machinery aside from the AIP? Which sub has the better sonar? Which sub has the better weapons?

Dude this is a diamond-hulled stealth sub, no scorpene is even comparable. And our tender wanted 3000ton sub meaning their design would be of the 212C/D's size. That would fit BraHmos VLS!

View: https://x.com/idrwalerts/status/1847106018406261239?mx=2

Navantia would've been better considering commonality with Scorpene which it was based on, just like Korean subs were based on German ones. If we got any shame or pride, we should bid our sub based on P-76 in the next international sub tender.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Delays won't be related to build capacity but due to new design. Even if it's just lengthening of old design it will require many tests before production. Plus there is the whole issue of VLS integration.

Regarding SSN , navy chief himself is expecting 2036-37 for first boat to arrive.

Technically India has 4 SSBN (2 Arihant Class, S4, S4*) but only 2 have been commissioned officially so far.

Given the SSBN program, atleast 2 SSN under P 77 will be ready or in service by 2035.

Given that construction of an SSN takes 8-10 years on average, it is therefore perfectly reasonably that we will have 2 SSN(s) ready for induction by 2035. Thus commissioning in 2036 still falls in line with the IN chief's statement.

View: https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1676988768312782856

 

[shade2]

German TkMS "Wins" Massive Indian AIP Submarine Deal; Defense Ministry Rejects Navantia's 'Unproven' Tech: ANI

It appears that German firm TkMS has won the ‘much anticipated’ Indian AIP submarine contract. The proposal of the L&T in partnership with Spanish Navantia was rejected by New Delhi as it was not compliant with Indian Navy requirements, ANI reported. The L&T and its partner had showcased the...

www.eurasiantimes.com

Per this article they are offering a Type 214 derivative design with elements of Type 212CD based on their previous interview with one Christian Fruhling of TKMS

Indian Navy’s Project-75I – German TKMS Leads Spanish Navantia After Field Trials For AIP-Submarine Deal

German submarine-builder ThyssenKrupp (tKMS) and its Indian partner Mazagaon Dockyard Limited (MDL) have come on top of the field trials conducted by the Indian Navy for the Project-75I for the construction of six submarines with Fuel Cell Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) technology combined...

www.eurasiantimes.com

When the EurAsian Times visited the tKMS yard in Kiel, Germany, and interviewed Dr. Christian Frühling, the tKMS Program Head for Project-75I, expressed confidence in the technology

Frühling said, “In this, our big advantage is our unique AIP solution. The submarine design is a derivative of the well-established HDW Class 214 submarine, which is currently in service with several navies worldwide. It will be tailored to the Indian Navy’s requirements and incorporate technological advancements. To summarise our Project-75I design: it is proven, it is advanced, and it is for India.”

Couple of other articles referencing the Type 214 base by some other TKMS suit-boot called Khalil Rahman

India’s great submarine hunt is on

Project 75(I) is rolling forward at full steam, but with an expanding Chinese submarine fleet extending its reach in the Indian Ocean, it must move faster still

www.indiatoday.in

With trials over for P-75I, Thyssenkrupp says it has offered better technical and industrial package

tkMS offers a modified Type 214 HDW class submarine with advanced features for Indian Navy's Project-75I.

www.thehindubusinessline.com

Khalil Rahman, chief executive officer, TKMS India, says the proposed deal has the full backing of the German government. He says TKMS promises a full transfer of technology as India has demanded, stressing that Germany will guarantee it. “The design is a derivative of the HDW Class 214. It is adapted to fulfil the P-75(I) requirements. ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems is a forerunner in stealth technology and the only provider of a sea-proven fuel cell AIP system which dramatically increases the range at which a submarine can remain undetected,” Khalil tells INDIA TODAY

 

[Bleh]

On any day 3 SSN's >>> 6 SSK

Absolutely not!

SSN are faster & will have a 100days endurance (limited by oxygen & food supply)... that's it. Although they can "dash" to a location it'll make plenty of noise for them to be detected while their own noise at high-speed renders themselves deaf. Also batteries are more silent than nuke-powerplant can't be made to shut-up, resulting in this:

During War Games, an Indian Diesel Submarine Sank a U.S. Nuclear Submarine

Key Point: When used properly, diesel-powered submarines can be just as deadly as nuclear ones. The Indian submarine INS Sindhudhvaj (S56) allegedly “killed” USS City of Corpus Christi (SSN 705) during an exercise called Malabar that is held annually between India, Japan and the United States...

nationalinterest.org

Maybe they're slightly better individually, but definitely aren't double the worth. Even 4 SSKs over 3 SSNs anytime. Slow & silent & standoff-ranged 3 SSGNs (Arihant with BraHmos) over 3 SSNs any day.

We quietly disposed off the Akula with no replacement or lease extension attempts.

 

[RocketMan]

Destroyers have increased since 2000s.
Frigates have also increased and will continue to increase( 6 more Nilgiri, 3x more Talwar ).
Corvettes will also increase, 16x ASW-SWC and six NGMV under construction.
We have 2x carriers and inshallah another should be approved by esteemed Ninda ji, who wants 3-5 more carriers.
2 Arihants are inducted, 2 have been launched and in trials

The only L in that table is Minesweepers, Admirals seem to have forgotten about it thinking exclusively about battle with PLAAN fleets on the high seas, till a Kanglu/Paki submarine lays mines in our harbors and they are not equipped to deal with those except those "clip on sweeps" they bought from Thales Australia.

If I was Admiral i'd do some Emergency Procurement and get some old-school minesweeper from our "friend" the Rooskies

Is mine sweeper harder to build than a destroyer? If we can build SSBN & aircraft carriers, I believe we can build a small mine sweeper too..

 

[Ayan Barat]

Is mine sweeper harder to build than a destroyer? If we can build SSBN & aircraft carriers, I believe we can build a small mine sweeper too..

That's us

By the way, you'd glad to know that we might be the only nation with the capability to both shoot down incoming ballistic missiles and not design a single cutting edge firearm in 75 years. So that's a plus I guess...