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This is for surface ships afaik and Kirloskar is also involved right?

I guess the submarine diesels have to be quieter than the surface ones, which is why the Chings are having troubles with theirs, both Pakis and Thais buying their subs are making noises about the Cheenq engine.
 
This is for surface ships afaik and Kirloskar is also involved right?

I guess the submarine diesels have to be quieter than the surface ones, which is why the Chings are having troubles with theirs, both Pakis and Thais buying their subs are making noises about the Cheenq engine.
Diesel engines will be the same irrespective of whether it goes on a ship or submarine. The latter will require more dampers to attenuate the sound , that's all. For that matter diesel engines on ships need to be pretty silent too else they'd be picked up on sonars.

PN & Thai Navy had objections to the Sterling Engine powering the AIP on the Chinese submarines which were copied from German designs as usual . Both those Navies approached Germany for the real deal & were told to take a hike.

PN very reluctantly has now gone in for the Chinese Sterling Engines or are still debating about it which is the reason you had that Thai Admiral asking them to decide quickly. Paxtanis make good guinea pigs , the world's slowly realising.
 
Is this a shocker? Naah, this was already known. Is it expensive at 70,000Cr? Obviously. Had it been cheaper if DCNS - DRDO was roped in to modify the existing design of Scorpene? On paper yes. Isn't it weird for MDL to throw away all the tooling in just two decades of first delivery and gear up for a completely new design? Yeah. Is it something new? Absolutely not; there are multiple instances in all three branches where a new expensive design was acquired instead of modifying an existing one. Is this all bad? By no means; it'll be great to have such modern, stealth design when you're again PLAN and especially when one of your submarine class is pretty much obsolete, with the latest of them delivered some three decades ago.

What's the lesson from all this? Indigenous is always better in long run than any form of import; even if not in terms of technology then definitely from a cost prospective.

But there's no point discussing this now, what was supposed to be done is done now. We should now look at the bright side of advanced submarine joining our fleet and just hope that the succeeding class would be a completely indigenous design.

By the way, here's my conceptual image of Kraut submarines patrolling the IOR.
IMG-20250125-WA0000.webp
Two Type-214s hitching on a Nilgiri Class frigate. Submarines often do this to save fuel when the warship is big enough.
 

View: https://x.com/Parthu_Potluri/status/1882685097331286314

I get the distinct feeling that P-75I will never go through.

It just doesn't make any sense. What is the need to spend Rs. 70,000+ crores ($8+ billion) buying a diesel-electric AIP submarine design when we have all the building blocks for making one ourselves?

The only justification anyone is even attempting to give is that the German offer is 'proven'. But there are huge caveats to that! Germans may have a working fuel cell-based AIP at sea, which meets the technical requirement to qualify for bidding - but this is NOT the AIP that would go on the actual P-75I offer.

The sub they have at hand (Type-214) is too small to meet the IN range/endurance/displacement requirements which is why TKMS is actually planning on offering a new, larger modified variant with design elements taken from the Type-212CD program. Which is more than a third bigger than regular 212/214.

The larger submarine would require an upscaled AIP solution with greater capacity to charge batteries, otherwise it would take a huge performance hit. This new AIP solution has to be built & tested. The new, larger submarine has to undergo the detailed design phase. There aren't any simple off-the-shelf solutions to be had!

There are still so many unknowns in this deal - I simply fail to see how TKMS (a company on verge of bankruptcy, btw) can deliver all this without having to change the amount they bid for (which is the condition for not invoking single-vendor clause and cancelling the whole thing).Even if they can somehow deliver, this is gonna take a lot of time. I don't see us cutting steel before 2030 minimum. By which point our own indigenous fuel cell AIP would be more than ready for retrofit on Kalvari-class, and our first two SSNs would be well into construction!

Justifying a foreign AIP sub purchase, only to induct it at around the same time as when indigenous SSN enters service and indigenous AIP-equipped sub enters service is just bonkers.

The whole P-75I requirement is in need of a DEEP REVIEW. We're simply going with the same requirements as were defined in the 90s (back when nobody was confident of making an AIP at home, and nobody was confident of being able to build nuclear submarines at home). The operating environment has undergone massive change since then - PLAN SSN patrols are a regular occurrence in IOR today.

And domestic industrial capabilities have undergone drastic improvement. We had no SSN program back when the 24-sub SSK plan was devised, the foreign sub + foreign AIP under P-75I was intended to be the high-end of our subsurface force. Today, our plans call for an SSN with a 190MW reactor to be the high-end...Scorpene upgraded with DRDO AIP is sufficient to be the low-end, which can be supplanted in the future by fully indigenous P-76.

The case for P-75I is simply gone in my honest opinion. But unless a holistic review of requirements is done, the Navy & MoD are not in a position to acknowledge the updated requirements & domestic capacities.



View: https://x.com/Parthu_Potluri/status/1883027757724303708

The argument against P-75I can be summarized very simply:

  • It can't compete with the high-end (P-77 SSN) in terms of capability.
  • It can't compete with the low-end (Scorpene with Indian AIP) in terms of affordability.

It doesn't belong in the Indian Navy fleet of tomorrow.
 
I’m happy for this 6 sub deal goes through and IN gets its subs. This is 2 decades sham like IAF MMRCA. We can focus on building own indigenous SSK/ SSN and these will be last batch of import for IN whether with ToT we learn or not. 9 scorpenes with these 6 will be good batch of SSK for IN.
 
I’m happy for this 6 sub deal goes through and IN gets its subs. This is 2 decades sham like IAF MMRCA. We can focus on building own indigenous SSK/ SSN and these will be last batch of import for IN whether with ToT we learn or not. 9 scorpenes with these 6 will be good batch of SSK for IN.

Isse yaad aaya? Anyone know what "ToT" was required in the P75I RFP?
Because Navy website is down and I can't find the PDF anywhere, just want to know what was the Navy asking that caused Koreans, Swedes, French, and previously even the Germans to back off from the P75i tender.

I think it must be ToT for the AIP, batteries or electronics like sonar and all, otherwise Hull fabrication is a given usually.
 

View: https://x.com/Parthu_Potluri/status/1883027757724303708

The argument against P-75I can be summarized very simply:

  • It can't compete with the high-end (P-77 SSN) in terms of capability.
  • It can't compete with the low-end (Scorpene with Indian AIP) in terms of affordability.

It doesn't belong in the Indian Navy fleet of tomorrow.

Will those future ssn be able to match or come close to the quietness of diesel-electric subs?
 
Two seperate points...
Had it been cheaper if DCNS - DRDO was roped in to modify the existing design of Scorpene? On paper yes. I

Disagree here. Maybe not true. Some have argued that making our own design from Kalvari to be certified for ops would take decades & billions. Should have since it based on Kilos but that time had passed.

And unlike surface vessels, we're planning on getting only 20 SSKs total, not a number which can accomodate 3-4 tranches of improvement like our warships. Which brings us to the 2nd point.
  • It can't compete with the high-end (P-77 SSN) in terms of capability.
  • It can't compete with the low-end (Scorpene with Indian AIP) in terms of affordability.
it'll be great to have such modern, stealth design when you're again PLAN and especially when one of your submarine class is pretty much obsolete, with the latest of them delivered some three decades ago.

Agree here. Our fleet is gonna be ½-⅓ of what China's can commit at IOR. It's better to get top of the line tech & bet on quality.

It can compete with the low-end (Hangor/Type39A/B Class with Chink engine & AIP) in terms of capability.
 
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View: https://x.com/ang3lkenny/status/1883056419123147054

View attachment 22985


View: https://x.com/ANI/status/1883042348785131873

ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems and Mazagon Dockyard Ltd: Joint bid for six conventional submarines has been found compliant by the Ministry of Defence

Does this mean it doesn't violate "single vendor" conditions?

RFPs went out in 2021 & have already been received. Procedure is Tech Evaluation -> Commercial Evaluation -> Negotiations -> Contract & whatever other official procedures one needs to follow dictated by protocol .

A single vendor situation post Tech Evaluation isn't unusual nor is it similar to a single vendor situation per se as in just 1 vendor bidding both tech & commercial bids.

The only disadvantage is ze Germans have the upper hand in negotiations now. Don't expect them to budge on price.
 
RFPs went out in 2021 & have already been received. Procedure is Tech Evaluation -> Commercial Evaluation -> Negotiations -> Contract & whatever other official procedures one needs to follow dictated by protocol .

A single vendor situation post Tech Evaluation isn't unusual nor is it similar to a single vendor situation per se as in just 1 vendor bidding both tech & commercial bids.

The only disadvantage is ze Germans have the upper hand in negotiations now. Don't expect them to budge on price.

If the baboons doing the negotiations are smart/competent/not -sold-out they can still try to bargain since TKMS is not in a good shape financially, hence their attempts to sell or IPO it and also why they re-entered the P75I program and also why the German govt relaxed their arms export laws for India.

imo they shouldn't have made it public that Navantia won't be selected, it weakens our bargaining power but not all is lost
 

View: https://x.com/ang3lkenny/status/1883056419123147054

View attachment 22985


View: https://x.com/ANI/status/1883042348785131873

ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems and Mazagon Dockyard Ltd: Joint bid for six conventional submarines has been found compliant by the Ministry of Defence

Does this mean it doesn't violate "single vendor" conditions?

MoD sensed this single vendor situation may occur again so they let L&T and navantia to qualify for next rounds till last stage and now dismissed them saying non compliant. Well it is what it is now We are getting TKMS subs.
 
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Isse yaad aaya? Anyone know what "ToT" was required in the P75I RFP?
Because Navy website is down and I can't find the PDF anywhere, just want to know what was the Navy asking that caused Koreans, Swedes, French, and previously even the Germans to back off from the P75i tender.

I think it must be ToT for the AIP, batteries or electronics like sonar and all, otherwise Hull fabrication is a given usually.
Not for ToT but AIP. None had operational successful AIP and Koreans sub is basically derived from HDW. Only TKMS has Li-ion based AIP and they actually proposed new scaled up stealth design based on IN wanted 3000 ton. If DRDO AIP was ready by 5th and 6tg scorpene things would have turned out differently
 
Not for ToT but AIP. None had operational successful AIP and Koreans sub is basically derived from HDW. Only TKMS has Li-ion based AIP and they actually proposed new scaled up stealth design based on IN wanted 3000 ton. If DRDO AIP was ready by 5th and 6tg scorpene things would have turned out differently
Is the Sub Tonnage requirment 3000 Ton in Submerged or Dry? Because 3000 Ton Dry means it would be some 4500 Submerged similarly on lines of Soryu/Taigei Super Large Subs.
 

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