Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[vampyrbladez]

Can't we turn the modified Type 212CD into a SSGX where each vessel has 3-4 VLS tubes to launch 6-7 Nirbhay or BrahMos each?

 

[Ayan Barat]

Can't we turn the modified Type 212CD into a SSGX where each vessel has 3-4 VLS tubes to launch 6-7 Nirbhay or BrahMos each?

Aaayein!? Nirbhay is not an issue

Do a little experiment; list down the length and diameter of all the cruise missiles like Nirbhay and you'd see how all of them are just shy of 8m in length and 533mm in diameter. Incidentally this phenomenon can be observed with all the heavy torpedoes...hmmmm, I wonder why.

The only problem is BrahMos because of its weird Ruski design. Just like BrahMos is probably the biggest obstacle between us and a true UVLS.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Aaayein!? Nirbhay is not an issue

Do a little experiment; list down the length and diameter of all the cruise missiles like Nirbhay and you'd see how all of them are just shy of 8m in length and 533mm in diameter. Incidentally this phenomenon can be observed with all the heavy torpedoes...hmmmm, I wonder why.

The only problem is BrahMos because of its weird Ruski design. Just like BrahMos is probably the biggest obstacle between us and a true UVLS.

Compared to Nirbhay, the BrahMos missile is significantly larger, with a length of around 8.4 meters while Nirbhay is only 6 meters long; both missiles have similar diameter sizes, with BrahMos being slightly wider at 0.6 meters compared to Nirbhay's 0.5 meters.

Since the Type 212CD will be larger than the Scorpene class, we can design the VLS as per the BrahMos and then adapt the Nirbhay.

• There will be 3 x VLS tubes on the Submarine just like a Virginia Class Payload Module.

• It can carry upto 3 x BrahMos in each tube similar to a K15 Sagarika missile on the Arihant Class
• It can also carry 5-6 x Nirbhay/LR-LACM missile.
• It could also be used to carry 1 x K 15 missile

• The Zumwalt Class uses an APM module derived from the Virginia Payload Module for Block V Virginia Class submarines.
• As per the latest renders, each tube can have 3 x CPS or 7 x Tomahawk missiles.

View: https://x.com/lfx160219/status/1879732705077956661?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1879732705077956661%7Ctwgr%5E6910ac2709bd11a596da201401f3b53d25b3f5bd%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.twz.com%2Fsea%2Ffirst-look-at-stealth-destroyers-hypersonic-missile-launchers

 

[Ayan Barat]

Compared to Nirbhay, the BrahMos missile is significantly larger, with a length of around 8.4 meters while Nirbhay is only 6 meters long; both missiles have similar diameter sizes, with BrahMos being slightly wider at 0.6 meters compared to Nirbhay's 0.5 meters.

Since the Type 212CD will be larger than the Scorpene class, we can design the VLS as per the BrahMos and then adapt the Nirbhay.

• There will be 3 x VLS tubes on the Submarine just like a Virginia Class Payload Module.

• It can carry upto 3 x BrahMos in each tube similar to a K15 Sagarika missile on the Arihant Class
• It can also carry 5-6 x Nirbhay/LR-LACM missile.
• It could also be used to carry 1 x K 15 missile

• The Zumwalt Class uses an APM module derived from the Virginia Payload Module for Block V Virginia Class submarines.
• As per the latest renders, each tube can have 3 x CPS or 7 x Tomahawk missiles.

View: https://x.com/lfx160219/status/1879732705077956661?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1879732705077956661%7Ctwgr%5E6910ac2709bd11a596da201401f3b53d25b3f5bd%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.twz.com%2Fsea%2Ffirst-look-at-stealth-destroyers-hypersonic-missile-launchers

533mm, Heavy Torpedo...itta to hint diya

Nirbhay is designed to be launched from the 21" torpedo tubes on submarines. You don't need to bother for VLS...every larger cruise missile from Nirbhay to Tomahawk to MdCN to Kalibr to even Babur has the same overall diameter of 533mm. Based on the mission profile the mix of cruise missiles and torpedos are decided.

BrahMos is pretty close to Nirbhay in terms of diameter but still way too big to fit inside the VLS. If the Ruski were visionary enough to shorten it by just 80mm then there would have been no need to bother so much about adding dedicated VLS for it.

But ya, it can be done pretty easily. BrahMos canisters are 8.5m in length, add 0.5m more for hatches and 9m can be pretty easily crammed in a submarine of 6m diameter using the kind of "hump" we see on some Russian submarines (Delta II). An universal tube can also be made for BrahMos and Sagarika; 750mm in diameter and 10m in length. But that's it, nothing more than that.

As soon as you'll start envisioning 3 BrahMos or one K-4 or 2 Sagrika...you'd face one of the most common problem of designing; scope creep. At some point you must stop otherwise you'd end up with a Typhoon class while designing an attack submarine.

 

[Azaad]

533mm, Heavy Torpedo...itta to hint diya

Nirbhay is designed to be launched from the 21" torpedo tubes on submarines. You don't need to bother for VLS...every larger cruise missile from Nirbhay to Tomahawk to MdCN to Kalibr to even Babur has the same overall diameter of 533mm. Based on the mission profile the mix of cruise missiles and torpedos are decided.

BrahMos is pretty close to Nirbhay in terms of diameter but still way too big to fit inside the VLS. If the Ruski were visionary enough to shorten it by just 80mm then there would have been no need to bother so much about adding dedicated VLS for it.

But ya, it can be done pretty easily. BrahMos canisters are 8.5m in length, add 0.5m more for hatches and 9m can be pretty easily crammed in a submarine of 6m diameter using the kind of "hump" we see on some Russian submarines (Delta II). An universal tube can also be made for BrahMos and Sagarika; 750mm in diameter and 10m in length. But that's it, nothing more than that.

As soon as you'll start envisioning 3 BrahMos or one K-4 or 2 Sagrika...you'd face one of the most common problem of designing; scope creep. At some point you must stop otherwise you'd end up with a Typhoon class while designing an attack submarine.

VLS is one of the requirements of Project -75(I) the IN will not compromise on IMHO. RoK initially agreed to it & later backed out . Since TKMS has now been chosen & it doesn't have a readymade design fitting Project 75 I requirements , it's a given VLS will be incorporated into it.

This was probably another disqualifier for Navantia. They made a hash of implementing existing designs that to entrust them with incorporating VLS into an existing design would be another throw of dice , were they qualified for Project 75 I.

Plus I anticipate the forthcoming HCM / Hypersonic AShM to feature in the INs plans for Project 75 I . Further could also mean NG being developed & not the standard variants the IN is now equipped with.

 

[Ayan Barat]

VLS is one of the requirements of Project -75(I) the IN will not compromise on IMHO. RoK initially agreed to it & later backed out . Since TKMS has now been chosen & it doesn't have a readymade design fitting Project 75 I requirements , it's a given VLS will be incorporated into it.

Yeah, I know.
Infact the first time I saw a BrahMos VLS was when Russians showed a model of modified Lada in MAKS for Indian tender.

All these time consuming, expensive shenanigans because you can't fit a BrahMos in the torpedo tubes.

Plus I anticipate the forthcoming HCM / Hypersonic AShM to feature in the INs plans for Project 75 I .

If you're referring to LR-AShM then naah, it would be bit too big at 15m maximum length.

And if you mean BrahMos-2 type hypersonic AShM then we still don't have anything concrete to design a VLS for it.

Further could also mean NG being developed & not the standard variants the IN is now equipped with.

I think NG would only be used by platforms for which regular one is bit too heavy like aircraft and missile vessels; not by capital assets like destroyer and submarines. There's no point compromising in range for them when they already weight thousands of tonnes.

 

[Azaad]

Yeah, I know.
Infact the first time I saw a BrahMos VLS was when Russians showed a model of modified Lada in MAKS for Indian tender.

All these time consuming, expensive shenanigans because you can't fit a BrahMos in the torpedo tubes.

If you're referring to LR-AShM then naah, it would be bit too big at 15m maximum length.

And if you mean BrahMos-2 type hypersonic AShM then we still don't have anything concrete to design a VLS for it.

No I wasn't referring to the Hypersonic LR AshM we just tested but rather to the HCM which we should be testing now that the SCRAMJET has just been validated for 120 sec.

For perspective let's consider the dimensions similar to the Zircon Hypersonic Missile although there's a lot of chatter now on whether the Zircon itself is a true Hypersonic Missile ? The IN must surely have an idea of what the dimensions are going to be .

I think NG would only be used by platforms for which regular one is bit too heavy like aircraft and missile vessels; not by capital assets like destroyer and submarines. There's no point compromising in range for them when they already weight thousands of tonnes.

I agree.

If not the HCM , the IN would be considering your standard for the NG makes more sense for the IAF tbh & somewhat for the IA & the upcoming Rocket Force especially in case of forward deployment along the periphery of the LAC given the compactness , not so much for IN except maybe the NGMV.

 

[Blood+]

Aaayein!? Nirbhay is not an issue

Do a little experiment; list down the length and diameter of all the cruise missiles like Nirbhay and you'd see how all of them are just shy of 8m in length and 533mm in diameter. Incidentally this phenomenon can be observed with all the heavy torpedoes...hmmmm, I wonder why.

The only problem is BrahMos because of its weird Ruski design. Just like BrahMos is probably the biggest obstacle between us and a true UVLS.

Not really.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Yeah, I know.
Infact the first time I saw a BrahMos VLS was when Russians showed a model of modified Lada in MAKS for Indian tender.

All these time consuming, expensive shenanigans because you can't fit a BrahMos in the torpedo tubes.

If you're referring to LR-AShM then naah, it would be bit too big at 15m maximum length.

And if you mean BrahMos-2 type hypersonic AShM then we still don't have anything concrete to design a VLS for it.

I think NG would only be used by platforms for which regular one is bit too heavy like aircraft and missile vessels; not by capital assets like destroyer and submarines. There's no point compromising in range for them when they already weight thousands of tonnes.

Why do you feel the need to use the torpedo tubes exclusively for firing Tomahawk class cruise missiles?

The BrahMos was designed to be fired from a VLS and has been certified from underwater test platforms from a depth of 40-50 metres.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...n-of-brahmos-missile/article64099539.ece/amp/

With a mid section (hump) VLS tube, you can massively increase the firepower and allow your submarines to act as a force multiplier.

A Kilo Class can carry at most 4 x Club S cruise missiles (300 Km) and in the case of Type 212CD, maybe 8 similar sized cruise missiles.

https://web.archive.org/web/2017083....com/c639327/v639327924/38091/NS2cZmDNPqM.jpg

With 3 x Mid Section VLS Modules, you can have upto 6 Nirbhay Missiles (1000 Km+) or 3 BrahMos (~900 Km) each for a total of 18 Nirbhay or 9 BrahMos depending on the requirements.

With 6 x Type 212CD, there would be another 108 Nirbhay or 54 BrahMos VLS tubes the OPFOR would have to worry about which could ruin their day.

Bear in mind that the Pakistan Navy and the PLAN have a massive weak spot which is ASW.

The People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) has further compounded this weakness by underinvesting in antisubmarine warfare (ASW) capabilities, which were neglected throughout most of the modernization. Even as China deployed wave after wave of new ships in the first decade-and-a-half of this century, many lacked organic ASW sensors such as towed-array and variable-depth sonar systems.8 China also had limited aerial ASW assets. Helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft (such as the U.S. Navy’s P-8) can significantly augment ASW and expand the zone of coverage for sensors.9 These were strange oversights for a country constructing a massive surface fleet.

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2023/march/submarines-will-reign-war-china

So instead of risking a NGMV or Kora Class to shoot and scoot, you can have a Type 212CD move closer submerged to Karachi and then do a Operation Trident 2.0.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Not really.

Arre I know; the biggest would be the fact that we're going backwards in development, I've mentioned it too

But the cold launch nature of BrahMos is also a big headache. Definitely you can make a hybrid system like Chinese but then it too comes with its own issues.

Why do you feel the need to use the torpedo tubes exclusively for firing Tomahawk class cruise missiles?

The BrahMos was designed to be fired from a VLS and has been certified from underwater test platforms from a depth of 40-50 metres.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...n-of-brahmos-missile/article64099539.ece/amp/

With a mid section (hump) VLS tube, you can massively increase the firepower and allow your submarines to act as a force multiplier.

A Kilo Class can carry at most 4 x Club S cruise missiles (300 Km) and in the case of Type 212CD, maybe 8 similar sized cruise missiles.

https://web.archive.org/web/2017083....com/c639327/v639327924/38091/NS2cZmDNPqM.jpg

With 3 x Mid Section VLS Modules, you can have upto 6 Nirbhay Missiles (1000 Km+) or 3 BrahMos (~900 Km) each for a total of 18 Nirbhay or 9 BrahMos depending on the requirements.

With 6 x Type 212CD, there would be another 108 Nirbhay or 54 BrahMos VLS tubes the OPFOR would have to worry about which could ruin their day.

Bear in mind that the Pakistan Navy and the PLAN have a massive weak spot which is ASW.


https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2023/march/submarines-will-reign-war-china

So instead of risking a NGMV or Kora Class to shoot and scoot, you can have a Type 212CD move closer submerged to Karachi and then do a Operation Trident 2.0.

Bruh...now I'm pretty sure you're not getting my point

• Nirbhay is platform independent as every single submarine can fire it as long as you've 533mm torpedo tubes. So Nirbhay good good
• For BrahMos you'll need additional VLS which will complicate things. So BrahMos bad bad
• Why I feel the need to fire Nirbhay from torpedo tubes? Well as I said, you don't need to ask a shipyard to modify its design to add a VLS. Even the oldest Shishumar would be able to fire without any modification.

I'm not questioning you're idea of K-15 or BrahMos VLS; I'm simply saying that if BrahMos too was 533mm capable then there'd have been absolutely no such issues.

The only thing that's bothering me a bit is why you're doing 6 Nirbhay or 3 BrahMos when both are pretty similar in dimensions.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Aaayein!? Nirbhay is not an issue

Do a little experiment; list down the length and diameter of all the cruise missiles like Nirbhay and you'd see how all of them are just shy of 8m in length and 533mm in diameter. Incidentally this phenomenon can be observed with all the heavy torpedoes...hmmmm, I wonder why.

The only problem is BrahMos because of its weird Ruski design. Just like BrahMos is probably the biggest obstacle between us and a true UVLS.

One of these days Navy will have to rescale the brahhmoos new "indigenous ramjet cruise missile" down by 2 meter length-wise and 100 mm in diameter. That will reach UVLS commonality on Mk45 standards.

 

[lexCommando]

View: https://x.com/VivekSi85847001/status/1883130034552267040

 

[Bleh]

Compared to Nirbhay, the BrahMos missile is significantly larger, with a length of around 8.4 meters while Nirbhay is only 6 meters long; both missiles have similar diameter sizes, with BrahMos being slightly wider at 0.6 meters compared to Nirbhay's 0.5 meters.

One of these days Navy will have to rescale the brahhmoos new "indigenous ramjet cruise missile" down by 2 meter length-wise and 100 mm in diameter. That will reach UVLS commonality on Mk45 standards.

BrahMos-NG is 6m... That fit with Nirbhay.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Why I feel the need to fire Nirbhay from torpedo tubes? Well as I said, you don't need to ask a shipyard to modify its design to add a VLS. Even the oldest Shishumar would be able to fire without any modification.

By the time the Type 212CD is commissioned, we will only have the Kalvari Class (Scorpene) as the other submarines in service.

I understand the requirement for commonality however this is more of an Ohio Class SSGN role being fulfilled by an SS(G)K so the BrahMos are a one off for this class.

The only thing that's bothering me a bit is why you're doing 6 Nirbhay or 3 BrahMos when both are pretty similar in dimensions.

The numbers are purely based on the diameter of VLS tubes required as per the Arihant Class with each tube having a length of 0.9m.

BrahMos : 0.6m width
Nirbhay : 0.5m width

Even so that's 3 x Tubes x 6 Missiles = 18 BrahMos/Nirbhay Missiles available per submarine.

 

[Bleh]

VLS is one of the requirements of Project -75(I) the IN will not compromise on IMHO. RoK initially agreed to it & later backed out . Since TKMS has now been chosen & it doesn't have a readymade design fitting Project 75 I requirements , it's a given VLS will be incorporated into it.

Going by that only TKMS Type 216 has a readymade VLS space available. It's also meeting the 3000ton+ requirements & is stealthy design. Although it didn't win for various reasons, it competed well in some big tenders. How come simply that one is not being offered?

 

[Ayan Barat]

By the time the Type 212CD is commissioned, we will only have the Kalvari Class (Scorpene) as the other submarines in service.

I understand the requirement for commonality however here this is more of an Ohio Class SSGN like SS(G)K so the BrahMos are a one off for this class.



The numbers are purely based on the diameter of VLS tubes required as per the Arihant Class.

I'm giving you some additional data points, it might help you in recalculations

• diameter of BrahMos is 600mm and length is 8.4m

• diameter of Nirbhay is <533mm (because torpedo tube) and length is around 8.7m. The 6m you see quoted everywhere is it's "marching" length; but in VLS you'd be dealing with Nirbhay + additional booster

• the emphasis here is not on Shishumar or Kalvari; it's rather on the fact that any 533mm can fire it. I guess most of the people here are missing my point, so let's draw a parallel...you all remember Mk-41 VLS or any Universal VLS for that matter which can be configured to fire anything from cruise missile to anti-ballistic one? Arre the same for which we all do a samuhik rudaali everytime a new IN vessel is launched? Well the 533mm tubes that we have on our submarines are probably the closest we've something to Mk-41. You can launch Harpoons, Exocet, Nirbhay, Tomahawk, Kalibr, Varunastra, Mk-48, even naval mines, heck there even are diver delivery vehicles that can be "fired" from these.
That's why I'm stuck on torpedo tubes since evening.

Still not convinced? Okay, let me try one last time.
This is the teeny tiny submarine from L&T

Zoom in and you'll find...

...yup, torpedo tubes. Those two 533mm torpedo tubes can fire every single weapon that I've mentioned earlier. Imagine a midget submarine armed with two 1,500km cruise missile that can carry even nuclear warhead.

That's the magic of the miraculous number 533

 

[shade2]

One of these days Navy will have to rescale the brahhmoos new "indigenous ramjet cruise missile" down by 2 meter length-wise and 100 mm in diameter. That will reach UVLS commonality on Mk45 standards.

This is very possible if you follow the trend with nameless acronym weapons like "SRGM" and "MRSAM"

Going by that only TKMS Type 216 has a readymade VLS space available. It's also meeting the 3000ton+ requirements & is stealthy design. Although it didn't win for various reasons, it competed well in some big tenders. How come simply that one is not being offered?
View attachment 23000
View attachment 22999

216 is a derivative of 214, It's their design only, when they tell us we're getting a "214 Derivative" it might as well be based on 216 or 218( if they can dodge any contracts signed with Singapur )

 

[Migflug]

533mm, Heavy Torpedo...itta to hint diya

Nirbhay is designed to be launched from the 21" torpedo tubes on submarines. You don't need to bother for VLS...every larger cruise missile from Nirbhay to Tomahawk to MdCN to Kalibr to even Babur has the same overall diameter of 533mm. Based on the mission profile the mix of cruise missiles and torpedos are decided.

BrahMos is pretty close to Nirbhay in terms of diameter but still way too big to fit inside the VLS. If the Ruski were visionary enough to shorten it by just 80mm then there would have been no need to bother so much about adding dedicated VLS for it.

But ya, it can be done pretty easily. BrahMos canisters are 8.5m in length, add 0.5m more for hatches and 9m can be pretty easily crammed in a submarine of 6m diameter using the kind of "hump" we see on some Russian submarines (Delta II). An universal tube can also be made for BrahMos and Sagarika; 750mm in diameter and 10m in length. But that's it, nothing more than that.

As soon as you'll start envisioning 3 BrahMos or one K-4 or 2 Sagrika...you'd face one of the most common problem of designing; scope creep. At some point you must stop otherwise you'd end up with a Typhoon class while designing an attack submarine.

It's been over 2 decades, can we not design a I which is <8 m in height and 512mm in diameter?? Wouldn't that be much easier?

 

[Blood+]

Arre I know; the biggest would be the fact that we're going backwards in development, I've mentioned it too

But the cold launch nature of BrahMos is also a big headache. Definitely you can make a hybrid system like Chinese but then it too comes with its own issues.

No, not that!! Just designe a smaller UVLS system in line with the Mk-41 or Sylver systems for SAMs and smaller SSMs. You know, as the Ruskies have done?? Or the muricans with their Zumwalts for that matter.

 

[vampyrbladez]

I'm giving you some additional data points, it might help you in recalculations

• diameter of BrahMos is 600mm and length is 8.4m

• diameter of Nirbhay is <533mm (because torpedo tube) and length is around 8.7m. The 6m you see quoted everywhere is it's "marching" length; but in VLS you'd be dealing with Nirbhay + additional booster

• the emphasis here is not on Shishumar or Kalvari; it's rather on the fact that any 533mm can fire it. I guess most of the people here are missing my point, so let's draw a parallel...you all remember Mk-41 VLS or any Universal VLS for that matter which can be configured to fire anything from cruise missile to anti-ballistic one? Arre the same for which we all do a samuhik rudaali everytime a new IN vessel is launched? Well the 533mm tubes that we have on our submarines are probably the closest we've something to Mk-41. You can launch Harpoons, Exocet, Nirbhay, Tomahawk, Kalibr, Varunastra, Mk-48, even naval mines, heck there even are diver delivery vehicles that can be "fired" from these.
That's why I'm stuck on torpedo tubes since evening.

Still not convinced? Okay, let me try one last time.
This is the teeny tiny submarine from L&T
View attachment 23008
Zoom in and you'll find...
View attachment 23009
...yup, torpedo tubes. Those two 533mm torpedo tubes can fire every single weapon that I've mentioned earlier. Imagine a midget submarine armed with two 1,500km cruise missile that can carry even nuclear warhead.

That's the magic of the miraculous number 533

Take the 533mm tube and flip it vertically along with 5-6 others in a circular tube along with supporting components and you have a 'universal VLS payload module'.

BrahMos NG is supposed to have a length of 5 m and diameter of .5 m which could work nicely with a 533mm VLS. However this is under development and not available for immediate use.

There is also the concern regarding larger missiles like the LRAshM and SMART which could be adapted onto submarines in the future.

What I am proposing here is a VLS Payload Module with variable numbers of VLS cells per module and diameters for different kinds of missiles.

The Arihant Class for example, can have both 4 x 3 K15 (750 Km) Sagarika missiles and 4 x K4 (3500 Km) missiles with minor modifications.