Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[ArjunMK1A]

INS Vikramaditya is due to be replaced from the mid 2030s onwards. Any plans to build that 3rd AC should receive sanction now. It'd take us a decade to realize the 3rd AC.

Vikky entered service in 2014 and no way they will through them out by 2030.

They are also upgrading the propulsion system everytime with mid life fixes.

 

[Ayan Barat]

 

[shade2]

3-Carrier Plan Shelved, India Wants Sharks ASAP - Livefist

A long meandering debate over whether India would build a second aircraft carrier to fulfil a 3 x aircraft carrier-based naval doctrine appears to have been quietly shelved for now with the navy sharpening its plans around nuclear-powered attack submarines (SSN) instead. The Indian Navy...

www.livefistdefence.com

Quote from the above of the kharcha and additional support kharchas

Maintaining an aircraft carrier fleet is expensive. The cost of refitting INS Vikramaditya alone has been estimated at ₹1,207 crore (about $145 million), and a full replacement of the ship will require several billion dollars. Additionally, aircraft carriers require extensive support infrastructure, including escort ships, submarines, and aircraft. This puts immense pressure on India’s defense budget, which must also accommodate major modernization projects in the Army and Air Force.

India’s experience with carrier operations has also been complicated by reliability issues with INS Vikramaditya and the MiG-29K fighters that operate from it. The complexity of carrier operations and a relative lack of synergy in training and maintenance between different carriers may have further complicated the Indian Navy’s ability to manage a three-carrier fleet.

View: https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/1886404337913733542


View: https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1886395458324480357

This could be seen in a way that decommissioning INS Vikramadtiya is an inevitability so if the contract for Vikrant-class carrier is signed this year or the next, it will take 10 years to be commissioned minimum, and by then Vikram will be close to retirement because of things like hull age.

ofc they can pull on for a few years till the Vikrant class carrier is commissioned and is considered fit for replacement, similar to the time when INS Vikramadtiya and INS Viraat for both active for like ~2 years and then Viraat was decomissioned

 

[randombully]

3-Carrier Plan Shelved, India Wants Sharks ASAP - Livefist

A long meandering debate over whether India would build a second aircraft carrier to fulfil a 3 x aircraft carrier-based naval doctrine appears to have been quietly shelved for now with the navy sharpening its plans around nuclear-powered attack submarines (SSN) instead. The Indian Navy...

www.livefistdefence.com

Quote from the above of the kharcha and additional support kharchas



View: https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/1886404337913733542


View: https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1886395458324480357

This could be seen in a way that decommissioning INS Vikramadtiya is an inevitability so if the contract for Vikrant-class carrier is signed this year or the next, it will take 10 years to be commissioned minimum, and by then Vikram will be close to retirement because of things like hull age.

ofc they can pull on for a few years till the Vikrant class carrier is commissioned and is considered fit for replacement, similar to the time when INS Vikramadtiya and INS Viraat for both active for like ~2 years and then Viraat was decomissioned

We can create a vikrant class carrier with upgrades in about 6-8 years.

 

[shade2]

We can create a vikrant class carrier with upgrades in about 6-8 years.

May I ask what makes you so optimistic?

 

[Suryavanshi]

It will be retired if the Navy finds its operation and maintenance costs ( including MiG 29s ) too high as compared to just running Vikrant and it's sister ship.

Our navy is a budgetarily-challenged force, the money saved can be used elsewhere since we'll be already running two carriers, no loss of capability would be there.

Anyway there will be an overlap where we will be running 3 carriers till Navy is confident of Vikrant-2's capabilities, then Vikramadtiyov will be retired

Tbh true this habit of holding onto relics like mig21 is a result of Incompetence of the institution. Navy is different from both Army and Air force in this regards they will ditch the carrier if we find better means.
Air force has no obligation nor can be forced to buy indigenous. Navy on the other hand is out of option, mudi sirkar isn't going to 5 billion dollar carrie. Even the most low IQ janta will call out the gormint for this. Something that big cannot be imported so there is no point of holding onto relics in order to force the gormints hand.

 

[shade2]

Tbh true this habit of holding onto relics like mig21 is a result of Incompetence of the institution. Navy is different from both Army and Air force in this regards they will ditch the carrier if we find better means.
Air force has no obligation nor can be forced to buy indigenous. Navy on the other hand is out of option, mudi sirkar isn't going to 5 billion dollar carrie. Even the most low IQ janta will call out the gormint for this. Something that big cannot be imported so there is no point of holding onto relics in order to force the gormints hand.

There is no import of carrier happening since we can make one domestically, and the type which would get the Admirals hyped for impoort( CATOBAR/EMALS and Nuclear Powered ) isn't being sold.

The question is whether it is worth keeping INS Vikramaditya even once you have a 2nd Vikrant or no.
It's not even a question of keeping up the numbers like they do with other warships ships built in the 80s, operating and maintenance of carriers, jets and other supporting costs isn't exactly cheap, that to for this one of a kind Russian "gem" that has no commonalities with other ships.

 

[randombully]

May I ask what makes you so optimistic?

"Cochin Shipyard officials said a new aircraft carrier of IAC specifications can be built by the shipyard in just five years."

India's first indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vikrant to be handed over to Navy in May

KOCHI: The Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL) will hand over India's first Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) which will be named 'INS Vikrant' to the Indian Navy nex

www.newindianexpress.com

 

[Indianhawk]

From what I understand the designs of IAC -2 or the 3rd AC was to have been frozen now & a proposal put up for approval of the construction.

The timing is important not just from the PoV of replacing the INS Vikramaditya whose marked deterioration in performance along with that of its air complement has been more alarming than previously estimated but also with a view to test new technology namely the IEP.

Following this around 2030 we were to design & get approval for the 65,000 Ton AC with IEP + CATOBAR & 5 years after that, around 2035 launch the construction of another 65,000 Ton AC with N Propulsion + CATOBAR.




You're right in saying the INS Vikramaditya would be consigned to training after a major refit but whether that is for the purposes of training or continuation in service depends on the when's the decision to construct the IAC-2 taken.

The concept's similar to using the INS Arihant for training submariners in N submarines be it SSBNs or SSNs after we've commissioned the S5 series. That's the plan. How will things actually work out is anyone's guess?!

Well navy wants the 65000 ton catobar carrier. But that was clearly stalled by babus and CDS. They all prioritizesd SSN for now.

So came the question of another vikrant class vessel to keep the carrier building ecosystem alive.

Now it seems we are delaying even that to focus on SSN efforts. It seems even with another vikrant class ship the cost of whole carrier battle group with air wing is just too much for now.

Besides tedbf is also nowhere near and we all know how more 30-40 more rafale M will cost for another Carrier.

So it seems the next carrier will only get approval after some progress on tedbf. That way we can get max out of a iac-2 carrier at bearable cost.

I think tedbf is the linchpin in all this carrier question. The air wing.

Which gives us some more pointers we won't approve tebdf for just one carrier worth of jets. Because it won't be economical . We will simply import more rafales if that's the case.

So tedbf approval will mean minimum production run of 80-100 jets. Which along with 26 rafale means we will be going for 3 carriers after all.

Tebdf for two iac carries and rafale m will be shifted to catobar based bigger carrier which will be true replacement for vikramaditya in 2045 or later.

 

[Indianhawk]

It will be retired if the Navy finds its operation and maintenance costs ( including MiG 29s ) too high as compared to just running Vikrant and it's sister ship.

Our navy is a budgetarily-challenged force, the money saved can be used elsewhere since we'll be already running two carriers, no loss of capability would be there.

Anyway there will be an overlap where we will be running 3 carriers till Navy is confident of Vikrant-2's capabilities, then Vikramadtiyov will be retired

As usual these news reporters are missing something in interpretation or translation.
And as usual issue of operating costs of vikramaditya are overblown.

We spend almost similar amount on vikramaditya overhaul as much we did on building new vikrant. Despite corruption that money went into hull of vikramaditya which iirc has been almost entirely rebuild. We will use it for 4 to 5 decades at the minimum.

Mig29k are being upgraded already. We recently integrated them with LoRA missiles ! An expensive excercise done by our "budget- challanged " navy.

This won't be done if they were not sure about mig29k future .

 

[Indianhawk]

"Cochin Shipyard officials said a new aircraft carrier of IAC specifications can be built by the shipyard in just five years."

India's first indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vikrant to be handed over to Navy in May

KOCHI: The Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL) will hand over India's first Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) which will be named 'INS Vikrant' to the Indian Navy nex

www.newindianexpress.com

This is only true if we build a clone of vikrant with minimal changes.
But as our history goes we will end up improving the design and introduce delays in the process.

 

[randombully]

This is only true if we build a clone of vikrant with minimal changes.
But as our history goes we will end up improving the design and introduce delays in the process.

That's why I said "6-8" years.

 

[Azaad]

Well navy wants the 65000 ton catobar carrier. But that was clearly stalled by babus and CDS. They all prioritizesd SSN for now.

So came the question of another vikrant class vessel to keep the carrier building ecosystem alive.

Now it seems we are delaying even that to focus on SSN efforts. It seems even with another vikrant class ship the cost of whole carrier battle group with air wing is just too much for now.

Besides tedbf is also nowhere near and we all know how more 30-40 more rafale M will cost for another Carrier.

So it seems the next carrier will only get approval after some progress on tedbf. That way we can get max out of a iac-2 carrier at bearable cost.

I think tedbf is the linchpin in all this carrier question. The air wing.

Which gives us some more pointers we won't approve tebdf for just one carrier worth of jets. Because it won't be economical . We will simply import more rafales if that's the case.

So tedbf approval will mean minimum production run of 80-100 jets. Which along with 26 rafale means we will be going for 3 carriers after all.

Tebdf for two iac carries and rafale m will be shifted to catobar based bigger carrier which will be true replacement for vikramaditya in 2045 or later.

The INS Vikramaditya as it now stands can go on with "major refits " for another decade . Beyond that if you're adamant on keeping it operationally active you can well run it till 2070 . After all we've plenty of institutional experience in running platforms way past their expiry date.

The original plan as I explained in a previous post based on information from a variety of sources was to get the IAC-2 approved by 2025. If for some reason it doesn't come thru then the next deadline would be by 2030.

There's another reason why the above development must be undertaken by 2030 & that is the air complement of MiG-29K which if we don't retire it by 2035 will not need to be retired in much the same way we didn't retire most of the Sea Harriers we imported or the MiG-21 we built & flew.

The TEDBF CDR isn't thru . It should be over the next financial year & put up before the CCS for budgetary approval. The original plan unfolded was always First Flight of Mk-2 to be followed by AMCA Mk-1 within 2 years & to be followed by the TEDBF within another 2 years. Add a year or 2 to accommodate delays.

If we assume FF TEDBF by 2030 , we should have the FOC within 5-6 yrs & the full complement of the initial 60 nos in another 7-8 yrs after the FOC. As you can clearly see we'd soon be in a situation where we won't be having the air complement in which case what do we do with the AC namely the INS Vikramaditya .

It's keeping all this in mind that it is deemed imperative we go in for the IAC-2 ASAP. The news report could well be the IN putting it up before the MoD with the explainer that the IAC-2 would be a replacement for the INS Vikramaditya to allay suspicions of costs incurred in running a 3 AC Navy which prima facie isn't wrong in anyway.

 

[AGNI 6 ICBM]

Navy preferred SSN's over Aircraft carrier...This move is fine only if we utilize that skilled work force to build 4 x helicopter carriers till orders of another Aircraft carriers.....

India Issues RFI for the Procurement of Four LPD Amphibious Vessels - Naval News

The Indian Ministry of Defence issued a request for information intending to procure four Landing Platform Docks (LPDs) for the Indian Navy. The tender is limited to Indian shipyards but those may answer with a foreign partner and design.

www.navalnews.com

Those 4 x helicopter carriers should be capable to handle Helicopters & Ghatak for antisubmarine & antiship ops....Navy mentioned ""The ship should have a through deck"" in its RFI


This is what through deck LPD/helicopter carrier looks like





Navy always wanted 3 x Aircraft carriers,Let's say Vikramaditya retires in 2040...



by 2040 Vikranth would be our sole carrier and will be 20 years old and we need 2 x Aircraft carriers to take the number to 3 from 1...



So construction of 2 x Aircraft carriers should begin in 2030 to achieve the above situation....🕉




IMO It isn't OK to operate Diesel Aircraft carriers in 2040-2070 so our 2 x Future Aircraft carriers will be mostly powered ones ....



How will our aircraft carrier would look like ?
Answer: 70,000 Tons with 2 x 190 Mw and will have EMAL's 380 Mw in toto



We will be building 6 x SSN & 6 x S5 ssbn with same Reactor of 190 Mw class so it's better to use the same in aircraft carriers....



I took French PA Ng aircraft carrier 75,000 displacement with 440 Mw as reference to get approx displacement of our aircraft carrier (only valid if they both have similar hydrodyanamics)



Is parallel production of two 70,000 Ton aircraft carrier possible....IMO yes , By 2032 our GDP will be 10 Tn and defense budget 200-250 Bn.....Navy alone gets ~80 Bn and Agnipath will keep funds for salary & pension constant.....



Is it possible to have NUCLEAR POWERED p18 destroyers ?.....I mean whole GBG running on NUCLEAR power to maintain high speed and unlimited range ?



IMO we should go for nuclear powered P18 so that it can have enough ️ to operate DEW & Rail gun of future...

DRDO Rail gun 🕉 will be able to fire 18kg projectiles at 6+ Mach upto 400km range


View: https://x.com/GODOFPARADOXES/status/1577508279718068225

Drdo DEW

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1719029195375010292




Russian are going to use NUCLEAR Reactor in their upcoming destroyers




It would be interesting to see if NAVY still goes ahead with TEDBF in 2040 or will they plan Naval AMCA