Indian Small Arms and Weapons

[Zoid Raptor]

What barrel length is that? 10.5? Or less?

With 5.56, need to be very careful with velocity, else performance on target is shit.

That seems to be a 10.5" barrel which should be enough for CQB in enclosed spaces like interiors of urban structures or ships

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

That seems to be a 10.5" barrel which should be enough for CQB in enclosed spaces like interiors of urban structures or ships

Thats fine for anything after the boarding, but having a useful range if 50 meters is a definite detriment.

 

[Zoid Raptor]

So on SM and everywhere it's "no LMT, thing of past, JV ended, all in-house" but while submitting a bid suddenly LMT appears

Inhouse as per them


They say the name is their only to enter the tender no other value to the name.

As for document I don't have it for now.

I've said this back in DFI but several members refuted my claims, there's no way SSSD can produce designs like their current lineup without external help since India historically doesn't have the industry nor weapons designers experienced enough to come up with modern firearms. We all know what the OFB clowns are clearly capable of

SSSD clearly took Caracal's path of hiring western designers (probably LMTs' since they previously had a JV) while holding the IP due to Atmanirbhar.

Nothing wrong with this approach but the CEO shouldn't keep explicitly claiming that they didn't receive any foreign help

are those Sakos even capable of holding Suups

Here's a Sako TRG 22A1 with Suppressor. I've seen several Barrett's actually being displayed with a suppressor even at gun shows in the US

Damn...that's pricey

Isn't it too costly for just 1 suppressor
Ig guess utmost it should be 60k

Not pricey imo, most lower end sniper suppressors are priced ~$1k while the good ones with full Titanium build are north of $2k

 

[Ayan Barat]

SSSD clearly took Caracal's path of hiring western designers (probably LMTs' since they previously had a JV) while holding the IP due to Atmanirbhar.

There are tens of sites where you can check whether there's any patent or not. Don't make "IP" such a huge deal.

As for LMT's designer getting hired, I don't think that's what happened. The incentive needed for a LMT engineer to leave LMT and work for them and also leave behind the patents would be huge. In case of Germany for some weird reason a bunch of their engineers went to Middle East; Haenel guys in UAE, Walther ones in Turkey.

Not pricey imo, most lower end sniper suppressors are priced ~$1k while the good ones with full titanium build are north of $2k

You can have a good Glock for $800 and you can also have a good Glock for $3,800. Which one's more "normal"?

The more than 1k to 2k range is what's for exotic things; titanium, baffle less, monolithic, Inconel. Otherwise 1k is sufficient for good suppressors and that too from reputed houses.

But the same for a new firearms firm's, first ever suppressor, locally made...is bit much.

 

[VictorDelta4]

In case of Germany for some weird reason a bunch of their engineers went to Middle East; Haenel guys in UAE, Walther ones in Turkey.

The German fire arms industry is broke mate. Its barely surviving if it wasn't for the Bundeswehr orders and Rheinmetall being deeply involved in federal political circle.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Likely between 10.5 to 12 inches X-95 is 16.5 so it's just a little shorter no smaller than 10.5 definitely so works damn well for our situation.

Recoil is clearly an issue for X-95 and so is follow up accuracy.

However 16'' barrel being fit in a 10.5'' AR-15's frame is actually great from a ballistics POV for single shot performance.

 

[username unkown]

View: https://youtu.be/WK4ebp8b390?si=IpVYT6W5lf2OTuSw

 

[Zoid Raptor]

There are tens of sites where you can check whether there's any patent or not. Don't make "IP" such a huge deal.

As for LMT's designer getting hired, I don't think that's what happened. The incentive needed for a LMT engineer to leave LMT and work for them and also leave behind the patents would be huge. In case of Germany for some weird reason a bunch of their engineers went to Middle East; Haenel guys in UAE, Walther ones in Turkey

Caracal was built by Robert Hirt and Chris Sirois (from HK & Sig respectively) they designed and built the factory from the ground up using the same IP from HK and SIG (as it was theirs). The incentives must've been much higher for moving away from their parent firms

During a recent visit to a gun show, I came across a Florida based startup which makes AR-15 based rifles. The guy was pitching em' to me and my bud with his selling point being, one of the rifle designer happens to be from Daniel Defense. I assume it's a fixed cost contract which might be the same with LMT guys in regards to SSSD

You can have a good Glock for $800 and you can also have a good Glock for $3,800. Which one's more "normal"?

The more than 1k to 2k range is what's for exotic things; titanium, baffle less, monolithic, Inconel. Otherwise 1k is sufficient for good suppressors and that too from reputed houses.

But the same for a new firearms firm's, first ever suppressor, locally made...is bit much.

Would you apply the same logic to Tonbo's Quads where they recently sold for ~$40k/unit to NSG (@Noob correct me if I'm wrong) despite being designed & developed locally per their claims which is on par with EOTech or L3Harris in terms of pricing?

 

[username unkown]

Caracal was built by Robert Hirt and Chris Sirois (from HK & Sig respectively) they designed and built the factory from the ground up using the same IP from HK and SIG (as it was theirs). The incentives must've been much higher for moving away from their parent firms

During a recent visit to a gun show, I came across a Florida based startup which makes AR-15 based rifles. The guy was pitching em' to me and my bud with his selling point being, one of the rifle designer happens to be from Daniel Defense. I assume it's a fixed cost contract which might be the same with LMT guys in regards to SSSD

Would you apply the same logic to Tonbo's Quads where they recently sold for ~$40k/unit to NSG (@Noob correct me if I'm wrong) despite being designed & developed locally per their claims which is on par with EOTech or L3Harris in terms of pricing?

If tonbo really sold thier quads for 40k then it explains alot why we haven't seen it with Marcos its over expensive there is no way its legitimate cost is that much

 

[Ayan Barat]

The German fire arms industry is broke mate.

Caracal was built by Robert Hirt and Chris Sirois (from HK & Sig respectively) they designed and built the factory from the ground up using the same IP from HK and SIG (as it was theirs).

German arms industry is a real weird case study. During World War they used to be the definition of advanced arms industry.
Canadian defence sector was starved by American one but the German themselves decided to sabotage them in the most spectacular way.

H&K either doesn't sell what customers wants or sells at a price that's easily double that of competitors. Haenel was there but after all the IPR issue with H&K they seem to slowly retrench. Schmeisser focuses primarily in European market and also are bit expensive. Other than that there isn't any significant big players. Once Walther used to be there but now Canik have greatly surpassed them using their very own design. And on top everything there's German judiciary that makes Germany an unreliable defence contractor.

So makes perfect sense for passionate German firearm engineer to leave and join any firm as long as they get their favourite toys to play around.
I'd like guys here to read the life of Gerald Bull to get a sense of how strong this tick is in weapons engineers; lost his life for his passion but changed artillery forever.

But LMT guys leaving USA for a new Indian firm with absolutely no guarantee of anything!

I assume it's a fixed cost contract which might be the same with LMT guys in regards to SSSD

But then again, where's the IP? There should be atleast a provisional patent for whatever design they're using.

Would you apply the same logic to Tonbo's Quads where they recently sold for ~$40k/unit to NSG (@Noob correct me if I'm wrong) despite being designed & developed locally per their claims which is on par with EOTech or L3Harris in terms of pricing?

I'm seriously asking, can anyone confirm whether we have the in-house capability to produce high quality bolometers or Image Intensifier tubes here?
Because if not then they'd be importing them which justifies their high cost.

And I don't think we are anywhere close to even Taiwanese lens quality, let alone German.

 

[VictorDelta4]

And on top everything there's German judiciary that makes Germany an unreliable defence contractor.

As someone who is frustrated on a daily basis because of the hoops the judiciary and the moron bureaucratic rules makes us jump through, I agree with this statement.

 

[Zoid Raptor]

If tonbo really sold thier quads for 40k then it explains alot why we haven't seen it with Marcos its over expensive there is no way its legitimate cost is that much

I'm seriously asking, can anyone confirm whether we have the in-house capability to produce high quality bolometers or Image Intensifier tubes here?
Because if not then they'd be importing them which justifies their high cost.

And I don't think we are anywhere close to even Taiwanese lens quality, let alone German.

Tonbo's is Rs. 4784900/unit which is $57k ($17k more than their US counterparts)

EOTech or L3H's Quads for instance come with Remote Battery Pack, Connection Cable, Hard Storage Box, Padded Transport Case, Batteries, Lens Cleaning Kit included with the $40k and I assume it'd be the same with Tonbo's

The higher end of Team Wendy high cuts are ~$1600 ish including all the accessories mentioned in that bid notification. If they retrofit with an upgraded internal padded lining and 3.0 rail kit, that's ~$200 ish combined putting the whole thing under $2k

The whole point of going with an indigenous platform like Tonbo's is to improve and encourage the local defense industry assuming they're getting a similar or slightly inferior product for a relatively lower price compared to their western counterparts. Not to mention, I still quite don't understand these piecemeal orders in absurdly low quantities

 

[Baseplate]

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2cr for 4 Quads from Tonbo seems pricey AF. A lot more expensive than EOTech's or L3 Harris quads at ~$40k. Tonbo's is Rs. 4784900 which is $57k ($17k more than their US counterparts)

EOTech or L3H's Quads for instance come with Remote Battery Pack, Connection Cable, Hard Storage Box, Padded Transport Case, Batteries, Lens Cleaning Kit included with the $40k and I assume it'd be the same with Tonbo's

The higher end of Team Wendy high cuts are ~$1600 ish including all the accessories mentioned in that bid notification. If they retrofit with an upgraded internal padded lining and 3.0 rail kit, that's ~$200 ish combined putting the whole thing under $2k

The whole point of going with an indigenous platform like Tonbo's is to improve and encourage the local defense industry assuming they're getting a similar or slightly inferior product for a relatively lower price compared to their western counterparts. Not to mention, I still quite don't understand these piecemeal orders in absurdly low quantities

Tonbo is doing limited production , thus they will quote a higher price to even out their production and RnD investment ,

 

[Ayan Barat]

The whole point of going with an indigenous platform like Tonbo's is to improve and encourage the local defense industry assuming they're getting a similar or slightly inferior product for a relatively lower price compared to their western counterparts.

This is definitely true...but there's a prerequisite; that indigenous firm should own or atleast control each and every single thing in its supply chain.

Example is Zorawar LT.
It could be have been a cheaper, indigenous tank with great market potential in African and Asian markets...only if we made everything. But thanks to importing, just the turret now cost more than 60% of the whole tank.

 

[Noob]

Because if not then they'd be importing them which justifies their high cost.

They infact did used to import the tubes I am not aware about the current situation cause I get all info from public forum and with no expos there is no update.

But then again, where's the IP? There should be atleast a provisional patent for whatever design they're using.

Vivek has said it before that they own IPs for each and every gun in their catalogue.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Vivek has said it before that they own IPs for each and every gun in their catalogue.

 

[Noob]

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Don't have the liberty to ask

 

[Baseplate]

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Norico /PSA and KPK be like IPR deez nuts .

 

[Ayan Barat]

Norico /PSA and KPK be like IPR deez nuts .

They say, sometimes truth is stranger than fiction


And if one needs to bring in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in a competition of IPR then I think that itself is a bigger L

 

[Baseplate]

They say, sometimes truth is stranger than fiction
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And if one needs to bring in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in a competition of IPR then I think that itself is a bigger L

They have their own IPRs but they never respect other's .