Indian Special Forces

[Arad Operator]

unit which started CT in India, trained and formed SPG, NSG and stuff is "special operations capable" and not a "special forces unit"

Which fairytale says that SG started all this? Honestly if this was asked by some regular fanboi then I had just said him/her to fck off but since its you who have a good knowledge of SF I will explain and bust these myths!

First of all CT wasn't started by SG, PARA Cdo and even regular infantry units were doing it much before inception of Spl Grp.

Secondly it was 9CDO with laid the blueprint for SPG, when Mrs. Gandhi was KIA, SG sent a team/sqn for immediate security detail of PM and Family. Then whole Nine was called in to take the task of PM security, SG was under 'NINE' and CO9 was also made the Grp Cdr of SG.

Now talking about NSG, the original plan was to convert nine and make it the first battalion of NSG but then Army Chief denied and SG sent two sqns(51&52 Coys, SFF) or Alpha and Bravo sqn of SG. But it was CO9 who laid the blueprint of it and 51SAG's first CO was from 9 only(Lt Col AK Verma), 52SAG got its CO from 1.
SG had to send two Sqns as it was laying without any Ops and useless anyways, SG and one more SFF Cdo unit got bashed by militants during Op BlueStar, Gen Brar the overall cdr of the Op in many interviews stated that SG was no better than Ghataks of normal infantry.

Now coming onto why its an Spec Ops Capable Airborne Infantry and not an SF!

FYKI there are only three forces which can be termed as SFs which are PARA SF, MARCOs and GARUDs which are under the armed forces. If a deputation unit like SG(SFF in general) is an SF then NSG is Super SF according to this logic as NSG is much better than SG in its mandates. Secondly when a deputation based unit(SG) is 70-80% made up of infantry and other arms then how can it be equal to SF? The only Spec Ops capability SG have is due to SF personal on deputation to it. If SG was so elite in its own then why it mandates that the Grp Crd(CO), Dpt. Grp Cdr(2IC), and all the Sqn Ldrs(Coy Cdrs) be from SF only?


Now as an bonus, I will bust another myth of yours that SG is some very secret covert unit of RAW, first of all SG is under SFF like any other V/A battalion, less Ops all other things are through SFF only. SFF as a whole is under DGS and not 'RAW'. Army HQ probably has more control on SG than so called RAW...

Warm Regards!

 

[Arad Operator]

But saar SG is superior to PARA SF saar, muahh Super PARA SF/22SG/22SF saar. It was given the name 4 Vikas to create confusion saar. Lt Gen doesn't know about SG but I know saar, SG is superhuman saar...

 

[username unkown]

If sg was created from para then how can it be superior to para well training or all the huge money they spent on Gucci stuff or considering they are just 600
And we don't know in current where sg is in terms of capability and equipment so considering they are in just 600 of them they should be tier one and used for army hq related ops and not be some sf infantry we won't know if sg is sf or "sf infantry "
But I would be seriously dissapointed if even after having a sf which are few they could turn them into one of the best into just another Ghatak infantry

 

[RDXChauhan]

But saar SG is superior to PARA SF saar, muahh Super PARA SF/22SG/22SF saar. It was given the name 4 Vikas to create confusion saar. Lt Gen doesn't know about SG but I know saar, SG is superhuman saar...
View attachment 11175View attachment 11176

Maj Gaurav Arya said Project Sunray called for 200 of the best special forces men something like that ( Just saying)
Also is it true that they trained in Israel or with Americans?
Op Bluestar was diffrent isn't it, no damage to the main body and all. Could be difficult probably ( I am noob)

 

[Arad Operator]

If sg was created from para then how can it be superior to para well training or all the huge money they spent on Gucci stuff or considering they are just 600
And we don't know in current where sg is in terms of capability and equipment so considering they are in just 600 of them they should be tier one and used for army hq related ops and not be some sf infantry we won't know if sg is sf or "sf infantry "
But I would be seriously dissapointed if even after having a sf which are few they could turn them into one of the best into just another Ghatak infantry

Read again what I have written above in the reply to Jedi Bhai! SG is under SFF which is a SOF, only certain units that carry out spec ops are SF and some deputation based unit can't be termed as SF,
The 600 numbers is not the exact(common sense) but since its just another airborne infantry unit like other V units then the manpower we can assume more or less 600 which i the sanctioned number for an infantry battalion.

SG is raised for what NSG is doing since its inception! After creation of NSG, SG was useless more over and was given some other mandate which even I don't know as its so secretive. Saying again SG was never SF, let me simply it more:

- NSG = SFF
- SG = SAG/SRG

Both SFF and NSG are SOFs in nature and federal contigency forces by some means or other.

 

[Arad Operator]

Maj Gaurav Arya said Project Sunray called for 200 of the best special forces men something like that ( Just saying)
Also is it true that they trained in Israel or with Americans

Yeah, according to him and many exfarts SG is under RAW also

First of all the fanboiz/exfarts who take Project Sunray as an example doesn't even know the raising day or 4 Vikas, date of conversion to SG, Date of Re-raising as it as splitted to form NSG by CO9 and Grp Cdr SG in 1986!

Talking about training with Yahudis/Yankees, all the three SFs have trained with both the nation's SF/SOFs.

 

[VictorDelta4]

CIA also has the Special Activities Division (SAD) which is a Special Forces (Tier 1) unit.

SAD/SAC is not a USSOCOM unit per se. Rather its a paramilitary unit that also recruits from Tier 1 units and works alongside JSOC/USSOCOM units doing spook stuff.

 

[VictorDelta4]

View attachment 11130
Spiritus System Chest rig
Rawat Sir

You sure its a Spiritus rig that he has on? Its more like the AT rig that was recently released.

 

[Arad Operator]

CIA also has the Special Activities Division (SAD) which is a Special Forces (Tier 1) unit.

Paramilitary forces can't be SF, they sure might be Teir-1 SOF like Delta and ST6 but not SF!

 

[JConline]

Trial purposes? SF has Binos since 2015 AFAIK...

Really? In good numbers?

 

[Arad Operator]

Really? In good numbers?

Yes they have Binos, no idea about the numbers though!

 

[vampyrbladez]

There's a clear distinction between something like that and when you call something as "special operations capable" it's like CIA SAD vs 75th Ranger Regiment or Marine Recons which are "special operations capable"
C'mon I get if you want to put that label on SFF but SG ? If they already had SFF why have something like SG doing the same thing then ? And you're telling me a unit which started CT in India, trained and formed SPG, NSG and stuff is "special operations capable" and not a "special forces unit" ?

The Special Frontier Force (SFF) is a paramilitary Indian special forces unit composed primarily of Tibetan refugees and Gurkhas in India.

The SFF has a total of six battalions called 1 Vikas, 2 Vikas, 3 Vikas, 5 Vikas, 6 Vikas, and 7 Vikas. Each battalion has around 800 troopers. The six battalions are commanded by Indian Army officers of colonel rank. At least five other Indian Army officers are in a battalion. At the helm of SFF is the Inspector General (SFF), an officer of Major General rank.

The Special Group, or 4 Vikas, functions under a separate chain of command under the R&AW.

Essentially the same difference between PARA (Airborne) and PARA (Special Forces). Due to it's smaller size, I believe SG is a true SOF unit and SFF is a SOC unit.



Similarly CIA's paramilitary wing is the Special Activities Centre. Within SAC there are two separate groups: SAC/SOG (Special Operations Group) for tactical paramilitary operations and SAC/PAG (Political Action Group) for covert political action.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Really? In good numbers?

 

[username unkown]

Read again what I have written above in the reply to Jedi Bhai! SG is under SFF which is a SOF, only certain units that carry out spec ops are SF and some deputation based unit can't be termed as SF,
The 600 numbers is not the exact(common sense) but since its just another airborne infantry unit like other V units then the manpower we can assume more or less 600 which i the sanctioned number for an infantry battalion.

SG is raised for what NSG is doing since its inception! After creation of NSG, SG was useless more over and was given some other mandate which even I don't know as its so secretive. Saying again SG was never SF, let me simply it more:

- NSG = SFF
- SG = SAG/SRG

Both SFF and NSG are SOFs in nature and federal contigency forces by some means or other.

So sg is just sff and nothing fancy or it is sof we will never have proper clarity from official sources

 

[Arad Operator]

So sg is just sff and nothing fancy or it is sof we will never have proper clarity from official sources

Saying it again, SG is one of the battalions of SFF just like any other V/A units. Less Ops, all other things are through SFF only. The only thing that distinguishes it from other SFF battalions is that it has an Spec Ops capability due to SF personnel on deputation.

About any clarity from any official source, voh toh hoga nhi kbhi...

 

[JConline]

View attachment 11190

I have this photo in my gallery but I think this is one of only 2 photos of Binods with Para SF. Hence I was asking if they have them in good numbers. Hard to believe that they have quite a few if it's been photographed only twice.

 

[username unkown]

I have this photo in my gallery but I think this is one of only 2 photos of Binods with Para SF. Hence I was asking if they have them in good numbers. Hard to believe that they have quite a few if it's been photographed only twice.

I think few units might have bino in good numbers we will only know when they are used in war exercises or in combat

 

[JConline]

I think few units might have bino in good numbers we will only know when they are used in war exercises or in combat

Have to take this with a boatload of salt. If they've had it in good numbers for 9 years now, during which time, the best units like 9, 4, and 1 have done exercises with US Army SF every year, it makes no sense that there are only 2 photos of them online.

 

[Jedi Operator]

Which fairytale says that SG started all this? Honestly if this was asked by some regular fanboi then I had just said him/her to fck off but since its you who have a good knowledge of SF I will explain and bust these myths!

First of all CT wasn't started by SG, PARA Cdo and even regular infantry units were doing it much before inception of Spl Grp.

Secondly it was 9CDO with laid the blueprint for SPG, when Mrs. Gandhi was KIA, SG sent a team/sqn for immediate security detail of PM and Family. Then whole Nine was called in to take the task of PM security, SG was under 'NINE' and CO9 was also made the Grp Cdr of SG.

Now talking about NSG, the original plan was to convert nine and make it the first battalion of NSG but then Army Chief denied and SG sent two sqns(51&52 Coys, SFF) or Alpha and Bravo sqn of SG. But it was CO9 who laid the blueprint of it and 51SAG's first CO was from 9 only(Lt Col AK Verma), 52SAG got its CO from 1.
SG had to send two Sqns as it was laying without any Ops and useless anyways, SG and one more SFF Cdo unit got bashed by militants during Op BlueStar, Gen Brar the overall cdr of the Op in many interviews stated that SG was no better than Ghataks of normal infantry.

Now coming onto why its an Spec Ops Capable Airborne Infantry and not an SF!

FYKI there are only three forces which can be termed as SFs which are PARA SF, MARCOs and GARUDs which are under the armed forces. If a deputation unit like SG(SFF in general) is an SF then NSG is Super SF according to this logic as NSG is much better than SG in its mandates. Secondly when a deputation based unit(SG) is 70-80% made up of infantry and other arms then how can it be equal to SF? The only Spec Ops capability SG have is due to SF personal on deputation to it. If SG was so elite in its own then why it mandates that the Grp Crd(CO), Dpt. Grp Cdr(2IC), and all the Sqn Ldrs(Coy Cdrs) be from SF only?


Now as an bonus, I will bust another myth of yours that SG is some very secret covert unit of RAW, first of all SG is under SFF like any other V/A battalion, less Ops all other things are through SFF only. SFF as a whole is under DGS and not 'RAW'. Army HQ probably has more control on SG than so called RAW...

Warm Regards!

I'm not sure someone whose assasinated is referred to as KIA but leaving that behind Lt Gen PC Katoch in his book stated the idea was to convert 1 Para into a CT unit...Col AK Anand also stated NSG & MARCOS when were established it was 1 Para who trained them in 1...
However...Lt Gen PC Katoch also states that parallelly as 1 was doing it's comvertion to a counter terrorism unit, the SG was also created for the same thing. Infact, Let Gen PC Katoch stated that
"In the Brig Bahri Committee.......it was decided that a Special Group be created for the conduct of a national level and Army Headquarters related strategic military special operations."

What part of a 'special operations capable' or 'super infantry' does strategic military special operations ?

Also if 9 Para cdo laid the blueprints for SPG, then please tell me the story and sources...I'd love to know them.

As far as "who has control over SG" RAW or Army HQ, Here's Lt Gen PC Katoch's word on it





So is SG the best unit of India ?
- No...the way we see them equipped in Kashmir and the limited amount of operations tells it all, see even their mandate is not defined

Was it mandated as a Special Infantry or Special Operations Capable unit and not a Special Force?
- Clearly no! It says it all....it was mandated as a Special Forces unit which would take guys from Army SF, as the Brig Bahri Committee stated that "there was to be a proper interface between the Para SF and the Special Group. The Para SF would also ensure a regular feed to the Special Group." The Army struggled with unconventional operations due to rigid traditions, so SG was created to handle special operations.

What's lacking in SG ?
- The fact that their leadership suffers from the same thing every government organization in India suffers from...including the Army. Yes their leadership is as incompetent

Is it right to call SG as a Special Operations Capable Unit ?
- No! Firstly it was mandated to be something else, secondly, it was under Cabinet Sec not Army HQ as you say, R&AW itself is under Cabinet Sec.
- Now, try selling me the idea that a "Special Operations Capable Unit" "As Good as Ghataks" was tasked to rescue political prisoners from Bangladesh.

 

[username unkown]

Have to take this with a boatload of salt. If they've had it in good numbers for 9 years now, during which time, the best units like 9, 4, and 1 have done exercises with US Army SF every year, it makes no sense that there are only 2 photos of them online.

Don't know about 9 years but with recent mordenisation push on how we seen more armasen tactical gear new helmet i think 9 most probably would have also gotten binoits assumption so take it with pinch salt