LCA TEJAS MK-I & MK-IA: News and Discussion

[Vishnugupt]

the root cause is Russia..

We should sanction Russia for GE engine delay

 

[Vishnugupt]

Import Air force seems into a deep shit. I don't see any solution in near future. Deep state will keep blackmailing India due to their old habits.

I don't understand one thing, A ordinary person like me can predict, what is happening today long back. I don't know what was blind UN Generals were doing back then.

People who often cry why Government didn't funded the Kaveri back then, should know that government cannot fund something of no use. Kaveri has been rejected by Great Generals back in 2010.

Though goverment has been keeping funding core engine technology development in isolation.

IAF looks nonexistent now days.

 

[SlayingHell]

Kaveri has been rejected by Great Generals back in 2010.

Its as if generols have the final say in everything. Its as if the same personnel from 2010 still occupying top brass positions in 2024?

The Kaveri engine has been decoupled from the Tejas project, and not rejected. The Kaveri program has been ongoing to mature key technologies, but even if we had the engine tomorrow, it likely wouldn't meet the required MTBO or reliability standards.

Genuine R&D takes significant time. The Chinese worked tirelessly, employing all possible methods—importing talent, espionage, and technology transfer—and they achieved results. We're taking a more retarded approach, which naturally demands more time.

Wasn't it only recently that there was chatter of testing the Kaveri on a MiG-29?

 

[SlayingHell]

In the midst of the GE engine drama and MRFA circus, one silver lining is that if the government finally wakes up and funds Kaveri or its derivatives, we could realistically achieve an engine by 2035.

The government needs to abandon the naive belief that the MRFA contract will lead GE or Snecma to hand over jet engine technologies. They simply won’t. They’ll find ways to fall short of full delivery on the contract, leaving the government to eat shit.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Import Air force seems into a deep shit. I don't see any solution in near future. Deep state will keep blackmailing India due to their old habits.

I don't understand one thing, A ordinary person like me can predict, what is happening today long back. I don't know what was blind UN Generals were doing back then.

People who often cry why Government didn't funded the Kaveri back then, should know that government cannot fund something of no use. Kaveri has been rejected by Great Generals back in 2010.

Though goverment has been keeping funding core engine technology development in isolation.

IAF looks nonexistent now days.

The Kaveri got rejected by the jarnails because these jarnails are thinking tactically, havent been taught to think strategically.
Ie, tactically, they want ze bestest product $$ can buy and that clearly is western engines.
But strategically, it makes us dependent on the west.

What China understood, that IAF jarnails did not, is that you cannot just rock up today, hire 1000 of the bestest and brightest in the world and crap out a top of the line ICE engine ( internal combustion car engine) , let alone a jet engine. If you could, China would've long since made its own ICE engine and had its own car brand.
Yet it does not. Why ?
Because ICE engines today are 4th/5th generation ICE engines and have been perfected so much, that a vendor with 0 years of engine development simply WILL NOT catch up for decades.
This is like asking Michaelangelo to make the statue of David when he was 15. Sorry, but cant do it, he needs a shit ton of experience and hard work first.

So if you cant do this with ICE engines, how can you do it with jet engines ? China for eg, accepted reality - that if they make their own engines, it will take 30-40 years for their engine to mature enough to be competitive with western/russian engines and they are fine- using their substandard WS engines over the much higher standard Lyulka engines.

I was told by an Israeli materials engineer friend of mine, who came to Canada for PhD over a decade ago and stayed only 4 months ( IDF flipped out when they found out they let this guy go, so they counter-offered his UBC PhD in materials science degree with a similar degree from U of Tel Aviv, with research position in a IDF lab itself and he went back home), that the Kaveri is a bloody excellent engine for a 1st gen engine: its only 5-10% more overweright and less Thrust-to-weight ratio than the 5th/6th gen engines.

But our jarnails basically want a desi to start a company today and in 20 years, be at the same level of development as its competitors who started 100 years ago. Thats just not gonna happen.

 

[Vishnugupt]

Its as if generols have the final say in everything

Yes, Generals have always the last say in defence related projects. If consumer do not want a product then there will be no such product.

Death of many defence projects are the proof.

 

[Brood Father]

As of today PAF has better generals than IAF ..sad reality ..
They can do wonders with peanuts of the budget..

 

[truthsoldier]

As of today PAF has better generals than IAF ..sad reality ..
They can do wonders with peanuts of the budget..

That is because they control everything. They don't have multiple depts and organisations within their ministry and services running in different directions

 

[Aaj Ka Hero]

We all have our dreams.

I think this is last resort, AL-31 is perfect candidate to replace any engine if designers of Tejas mk-2 design the engine bay in a way that fits it.
They are already designing it to fit different engines last time what I heard.
With this government finally running out of patience, certainly there might be talks going on right now to look at Indianised Al-31, we have already indianised it.
It's USA and it's allies who chose NIJJAR TERRORIST over India.
Not us.

 

[Aaj Ka Hero]

The Kaveri got rejected by the jarnails because these jarnails are thinking tactically, havent been taught to think strategically.
Ie, tactically, they want ze bestest product $$ can buy and that clearly is western engines.
But strategically, it makes us dependent on the west.

What China understood, that IAF jarnails did not, is that you cannot just rock up today, hire 1000 of the bestest and brightest in the world and crap out a top of the line ICE engine ( internal combustion car engine) , let alone a jet engine. If you could, China would've long since made its own ICE engine and had its own car brand.
Yet it does not. Why ?
Because ICE engines today are 4th/5th generation ICE engines and have been perfected so much, that a vendor with 0 years of engine development simply WILL NOT catch up for decades.
This is like asking Michaelangelo to make the statue of David when he was 15. Sorry, but cant do it, he needs a shit ton of experience and hard work first.

So if you cant do this with ICE engines, how can you do it with jet engines ? China for eg, accepted reality - that if they make their own engines, it will take 30-40 years for their engine to mature enough to be competitive with western/russian engines and they are fine- using their substandard WS engines over the much higher standard Lyulka engines.

I was told by an Israeli materials engineer friend of mine, who came to Canada for PhD over a decade ago and stayed only 4 months ( IDF flipped out when they found out they let this guy go, so they counter-offered his UBC PhD in materials science degree with a similar degree from U of Tel Aviv, with research position in a IDF lab itself and he went back home), that the Kaveri is a bloody excellent engine for a 1st gen engine: its only 5-10% more overweright and less Thrust-to-weight ratio than the 5th/6th gen engines.

But our jarnails basically want a desi to start a company today and in 20 years, be at the same level of development as its competitors who started 100 years ago. Thats just not gonna happen.

Best it's flat rated, so no matter where it's in it's designed altitude, it would still give desired similar thrust. No variation.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

... Snecma to hand over jet engine technologies. They simply won’t. They’ll find ways to fall short of full delivery on the contract, leaving the government to eat shit.

Why tho? Safran seems to have delivered on the Shakti engine, well enough for us to go round 2 with Aravalli (for IMRH) and make HTSE on our own.

 

[SlayingHell]

Why tho? Safran seems to have delivered on the Shakti engine, well enough for us to go round 2 with Aravalli (for IMRH) and make HTSE on our own.

Arey baba- Shakti hotcore is from Safran from beginning and they held until recently closely and only parted with it as we developed our own HTSE, what is even the point?

 

[Nutcracker]

I think this is last resort, AL-31 is perfect candidate to replace any engine if designers of Tejas mk-2 design the engine bay in a way that fits it.
They are already designing it to fit different engines last time what I heard.
With this government finally running out of patience, certainly there might be talks going on right now to look at Indianised Al-31, we have already indianised it.
It's USA and it's allies who chose NIJJAR TERRORIST over India.
Not us.

Al31 is in totally different league compare to GE414 and EJ200. Also our Jurnails don't have much trust to go with single Russian engine. Porkies have somehow managed to not crash many jf17with rd93 , although availability rate and flying hours are surely affected.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Arey baba- Shakti hotcore is from Safran from beginning and they held until recently closely and only parted with it as we developed our own HTSE, what is even the point?

But they did give, na? We had to do some jugaad to get final ToT but we are a respectable stage in turboshaft dev now because of a similar deal....

IDC if its shared IP, as long as type certification is with us its good enough ig, can slowly weed out the imported parts

 

[Binayak95]

Russia invaded Ukraine more than two and a half years ago, resulting in a shortage of titanium (and any other materials?) to western aerospace manufacturers. There may be more than that to the GE F404 delay but the root cause is Russia..

I think that India may have a legal claim for damages due to the delay in delivery but GE has the defence of 'frustration' - something beyond one's control that prevents one doing something. If GE stated in the contract that delivery dates were not firm, what remedy is available to India?

India's priority is to get fighters out of the door. The country needs GE engines to do that in the immediate future. The question is: what is the best course of action with GE to bring that about? Another matter to consider is the F414 contract. India does not want to delay that being signed by getting into a dispute with GE over F404.

the argument from GE would Force Majure.

Root cause is not just Russia but China too.
CHinks have gained monopoly on intl supply of Russian titanium

 

[Patriots]

Pump more money in engine development ....
Atleast , ask saffron again to refine the kaveri , only if it can generate thrust of current ge f404 .....if they are asking more money , then it's better than daily black mailing of usa

 

[Anants]

They can do wonders with peanuts of the budget..

Build wonderfool DHAs..

 

[dumdumdum]

As per this video @ 4:40, 14 AirFrames are ready & awaiting Engines

Indian Defence Updates

 

[Spitfire IX]

As per this video @ 4:40, 14 AirFrames are ready & awaiting Engines

Indian Defence Updates

14 sounds reassuring. IIRC the original delivery production target was 8 frames FY 23-24 and 16 frames in following financial years, so 24 frames by April 2025.

About the Indian Defence Updates video: I know that this source is unreliable but it mentioned that avionics would still need to be fitted after engines were fitted. Why? I think you can remove engines from fighter aircraft without removing avionics.

As I pointed out a few days ago ,I think that you only need one -IN20 engine to fully test several new Mk1A so that when engines become available, the aircraft are ready to go once new engines are fitted.

 

[Azaad]

14 sounds reassuring. IIRC the original delivery production target was 8 frames FY 23-24 and 16 frames in following financial years, so 24 frames by April 2025.

It's 14 frames by Mar 25 of which 05 will be delivered by HAL to the IAF coz they've only so many GE F-404 TFs in their inventory . The rest will be delivered on receipt of additional TFs .

With the Nashik line of HAL coming into play from September - October 2025 , HAL could make as many as 20 air frames ready by Mar'26 with deliveries to IAF determined by the number of TFs it receives from GE.