LCA TEJAS MK-I & MK-IA: News and Discussion

[Bleh]

they can sell us fighter jets worth $20b every now and then. We have been their lifelong customers from Mirage2000 to Rafale, and from scorpene to meteor.

They can't... We only got 36 Rafales in place of 126.

They'll get a much surer & steadier income from engine royalty just like Scorpene.

 

[Nutcracker]

Stop Tejas will lose 10% power. I say we wait for the Snema-joint engine that was in talks

But that was with Snecma core, right? Isn't the issue with core is resolved, and its the AB numbers which are lacking.

 

[705-Lira]

What a colossal ef up the management team has done with LCA. engine requirement was known since decades and they had decades of time to procure the engines in advance to mitigate the already delayed project. But they played a goggly here and now have nothing but to wait and watch while Squadron strangth is dwindling to ground.
HAL/GOI deserves the tagma of Hila-le-Pakistan.
@Ayan Barat Does anybody know what is the status of Mk1 project? and if it too along with Mk1A is being delayed due to engine issue?

How exactly is HAL supposed to procure engines on its own without a firm contract in place?
Do you think that GE will start building engines for India based on mere assurances?
The contract for 83 Tejas Mk1A was signed in February 2021 and the engine deal was done in August 2021.
HAL was supposed to start delivery of the Tejas 36 months post contract date i.e., February 2024.
GE very well knew the delivery timelines despite which the effed up.

 

[AbRaj]

How exactly is HAL supposed to procure engines on its own without a firm contract in place?
Do you think that GE will start building engines for India based on mere assurances?
The contract for 83 Tejas Mk1A was signed in February 2021 and the engine deal was done in August 2021.
HAL was supposed to start delivery of the Tejas 36 months post contract date i.e., February 2024.
GE very well knew the delivery timelines despite which the effed up.

So that means even for a assembly manufacturer ( and not the true OEM) HAL/beHAL is a failed company as they don’t have a clue about what risk assessment and risk mitigation about supply line is. It is surviving just by burning taxpayers money. They have a product two decades late from their original timeline, yet somehow they still managed to f it up more. Now even talking about Tejas seems like a joke now.

 

[AMCA MK1]

Stop Tejas will lose 10% power. I say we wait for the Snema-joint engine that was in talks

No kaveri is flat ratted engine which means it's thrust numbers are not in ideal conditions.
That's why they talk abt 80kn kaveri. Even error404 makes around 80kn in indian conditions instead of 84.5 published number.

 

[Bleh]

No kaveri is flat ratted engine which means it's thrust numbers are not in ideal conditions.
That's why they talk abt 80kn kaveri. Even error404 makes around 80kn in indian conditions instead of 84.5 published number.

IN20 version has 89kN thrust, power output reasons at 83-87kN in India I learnt.... Still kaveri is near 200kg heavier even if the thrust matched.

We should fix it on a drone without afterburner & moved on to Kaveri 2.

 

[r8rdarklord]

How exactly is HAL supposed to procure engines on its own without a firm contract in place?
Do you think that GE will start building engines for India based on mere assurances?
The contract for 83 Tejas Mk1A was signed in February 2021 and the engine deal was done in August 2021.
HAL was supposed to start delivery of the Tejas 36 months post contract date i.e., February 2024.
GE very well knew the delivery timelines despite which the effed up.

This is the bane of the sarkari companies. They know they can't fail, if they do, the Govt will always bail them out no matter how much they delay or make excuses. The OFB thrived on this for years.

 

[AbRaj]

This is the bane of the sarkari companies. They know they can't fail, if they do, the Govt will always bail them out no matter how much they delay or make excuses. The OFB thrived on this for years.

This has to end now.Babus sitting at the top must be held accountable for the downfall of the company which essentially has 0 product product since more than a year and still everyone is getting paid regularly. Imagine if a Pvt company like Apple or Xiaomi has faced something like that and their bosses were making excuses like semiconductor shortage, chip ban and display shortage etc.
If they don’t have foresight to get engines in advance for a product of 80s, who’s responsible for that ? And who’s is at loss here if war breaks out today? Another “Rafale hota to” rona dhona ? Also IAF must also be brought into responsibility as why they don’t take product procurement seriously and are so cut off from the whole process.
They much stop latching on to their Import addiction and Unobtanium cravings and work with local agencies (HAL/TATA/M&M/Adani/Ambani) with realistic and strictly time bound product development.
They just can’t keep blaming GOI for their miserable condition, After all they are just unqualified and selfish politicians at the core.

 

[r8rdarklord]

This has to end now.Babus sitting at the top must be held accountable for the downfall of the company which essentially has 0 product product since more than a year and still everyone is getting paid regularly. Imagine if a Pvt company like Apple or Xiaomi has faced something like that and their bosses were making excuses like semiconductor shortage, chip ban and display shortage etc.
If they don’t have foresight to get engines in advance for a product of 80s, who’s responsible for that ? And who’s is at loss here if war breaks out today? Another “Rafale hota to” rona dhona ? Also IAF must also be brought into responsibility as why they don’t take product procurement seriously and are so cut off from the whole process.
They much stop latching on to their Import addiction and Unobtanium cravings and work with local agencies (HAL/TATA/M&M/Adani/Ambani) with realistic and strictly time bound product development.
They just can’t keep blaming GOI for their miserable condition, After all they are just unqualified and selfish politicians at the core.

Babus are not going to change. This includes MoD babus, HAL babus, ADA babus, & IAF babus. Even a well-meaning minister can't change them. They have turned the pattern of delays and excuses into an art form.

 

[BON PLAN]

As I noob in Defense field, I think Snecma JV will never happen. Why will they devlope engine with us when they know for sure that they can sell us fighter jets worth $20b every now and then. We have been their lifelong customers from Mirage2000 to Rafale, and from scorpene to meteor. If the engine succeeds they know we won't buy any jets(and therefore missiles bombs and related equipments) from them. From their perspective they would rather collab with Germans, Koreans, Japnese to move further in their techology rather than let go of pretty fat lifelong customer.

I answer as a french :
We knew, for years, that India will be self reliant in aerospace technology. It's only a question of time and money (see China with engine technology : they are only able to paste russian design, not a pure chinese one).
Rafale will be the last french fighter sell to India. My bet for years is a final target of 72 to 108 birds.
On the other hand India is a very good partner of France, and France a very good partner for India.

So, after the last Rafale deal, it is better for the 2 sides to help you to study and produce an engine for your next gen fighter than nothing.

 

[BON PLAN]

Main problem to give you know how for engine is the price. With Safran, or PW, or GE, or R&R.
Why?
Because a fighter engine is one of the hardest thing to develop, fine tune and serially produce.
Is has to be light, to run between -50°C and +50°C externaly but nearly 2000°K inside, to be fuel efficient, to run with 10G acceleration.
It is the result of 70 years of prototyp, of high technology development (alloys, composite, numeric simulation, ...). A new engine need at least 10 years of work.

SO IT HAS A PRICE !
A price than India, until this last days, refuse to understand and to pay. OK, so continue with Kaveri....

 

[Anants]

Can you fix the coding?It is not displaying correctly.

 

[Spitfire IX]

It is reported that on his recent visit to Nigeria India's prime minister Modi offered to supply Tejas Mk1A to Nigeria with a $200 million loan to sweeten the proposal.

Story at 2m45 into video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjJekorJYVQ

The prospects of anything coming from this proposal are less than promising:

Unhappy With JF-17 Thunder Jets? Nigeria Set To Receive Italian M-346 Fighter Aircraft By End Of 2024

Nigeria’s Air Force is gearing up to welcome the arrival of the first batch of six Italian-made M-346FA light fighter-trainer aircraft before the end of the year, marking a crucial leap in the country’s military aviation capabilities. Manufactured by Leonardo, the M-346FA, originally designed as...

www.eurasiantimes.com

 

[Spitfire IX]

Main problem to give you know how for engine is the price. With Safran, or PW, or GE, or R&R.
Why?
Because a fighter engine is one of the hardest thing to develop, fine tune and serially produce.
Is has to be light, to run between -50°C and +50°C externaly but nearly 2000°K inside, to be fuel efficient, to run with 10G acceleration.
It is the result of 70 years of prototyp, of high technology development (alloys, composite, numeric simulation, ...). A new engine need at least 10 years of work.

SO IT HAS A PRICE !
A price than India, until this last days, refuse to understand and to pay. OK, so continue with Kaveri....

For a deal to be done between a buyer and a seller a price needs to be agreed between the parties.

1 The price cannot be below the lowest price at which the seller is prepared lo sell
2 The price cannot be above the highest price at which the buyer is prepared lo buy

In this situation (new engine) I think that India's highest price is below the lowest price of the seller. If I am right, the last ten years of negotiations have been a waste of time. as will all future negotiations be.

Without the parties shifting on price minima and maxima there will never be a deal on a new engine for AMCA.

 

[Anants]

Guys correct the table. Its hard embedding a html table inside post so just posting code. Feel free to edit and repost

<!DOCTYPE html>
<html lang="en">
<head>
    <meta charset="UTF-8">
    <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0">
    <title>Engine Comparison Table</title>
    <style>
        body {
            font-family: Arial, sans-serif;
            background-color: #f8f9fa;
            margin: 0;
            padding: 20px;
        }
        table {
            width: 100%;
            border-collapse: collapse;
            margin-top: 20px;
            font-size: 16px;
        }
        th, td {
            padding: 12px;
            text-align: center;
            border: 1px solid #ddd;
        }
        th {
            background-color: #2F4F4F;
            color: white;
            font-size: 18px;
        }
        td {
            font-size: 16px;
            background-color: #F0F8FF;
        }
        .image-container {
            text-align: center;
            margin-bottom: 10px;
        }
        .image-container img {
            width: 100px;
            height: auto;
        }
    </style>
</head>
<body>

<h2 style="text-align:center;">Engine Comparison Table</h2>

<!-- Engine Images -->
<div class="image-container">
    <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/GE_F404.jpg/500px-GE_F404.jpg" alt="GE F404 IN">
    <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/GE_F414.jpg/500px-GE_F414.jpg" alt="GE F414">
    <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Eurofighter_EJ200.jpg/500px-Eurofighter_EJ200.jpg" alt="EJ2000">
    <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Safran_M88.jpg/500px-Safran_M88.jpg" alt="M88">
    <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Kaveri_Engine.JPG/500px-Kaveri_Engine.JPG" alt="Kaveri">
    <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/IHI_XF5_Engine.jpg/500px-IHI_XF5_Engine.jpg" alt="IHI XF5">
</div>

<!-- Table -->
<table>
    <thead>
        <tr>
            <th>Engine Model</th>
            <th>Dimensions (mm)</th>
            <th>Bypass Ratio</th>
            <th>Compressor Stages</th>
            <th>Metallurgy</th>
            <th>Thrust Dry (kN)</th>
            <th>Thrust Wet (kN)</th>
            <th>Overall Pressure Ratio</th>
            <th>Engine Type</th>
            <th>Source</th>
        </tr>
    </thead>
    <tbody>
        <tr>
            <td>GE F404 IN</td>
            <td>1,500 x 1,100</td>
            <td>0.28</td>
            <td>9 (Axial-Flow)</td>
            <td>Titanium, Steel</td>
            <td>59</td>
            <td>83</td>
            <td>30</td>
            <td>Twin-spool, low-bypass afterburning turbofan</td>
            <td>General Electric (GE)</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
            <td>GE F414</td>
            <td>1,570 x 1,120</td>
            <td>0.32</td>
            <td>10 (Axial-Flow)</td>
            <td>Titanium, Steel</td>
            <td>77</td>
            <td>98</td>
            <td>32</td>
            <td>Twin-spool, low-bypass afterburning turbofan</td>
            <td>General Electric (GE)</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
            <td>EJ 2000</td>
            <td>1,530 x 1,200</td>
            <td>0.45</td>
            <td>12 (Axial-Flow)</td>
            <td>Al-Li, Steel</td>
            <td>90</td>
            <td>100</td>
            <td>35</td>
            <td>Twin-spool, low-bypass afterburning turbofan (blisks for weight reduction)</td>
            <td>Rolls-Royce</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
            <td>M88</td>
            <td>1,600 x 1,200</td>
            <td>0.25</td>
            <td>10 (Axial-Flow)</td>
            <td>Titanium, Steel</td>
            <td>75</td>
            <td>94</td>
            <td>30</td>
            <td>Twin-spool, low-bypass afterburning turbofan (FADEC enabled)</td>
            <td>Safran</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
            <td>Kaveri</td>
            <td>1,200 x 1,000</td>
            <td>0.35</td>
            <td>14 (Axial-Flow)</td>
            <td>Alloy Steel</td>
            <td>50</td>
            <td>62</td>
            <td>28</td>
            <td>Twin-spool, low-bypass afterburning turbofan (Indigenous design)</td>
            <td>GTRE</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
            <td>IHI XF5</td>
            <td>1,550 x 1,100</td>
            <td>0.50</td>
            <td>11 (Axial-Flow)</td>
            <td>Titanium, Steel</td>
            <td>75</td>
            <td>95</td>
            <td>35</td>
            <td>Twin-spool, low-bypass afterburning turbofan (Thrust vectoring enabled)</td>
            <td>Mitsubishi Heavy Industries</td>
        </tr>
    </tbody>
</table>

</body>
</html>

 

[Blademaster]

View attachment 18693
Guys correct the table. Its hard embedding a html table inside post so just posting code. Feel free to edit and repost

<!DOCTYPE html>
<html lang="en">
<head>
    <meta charset="UTF-8">
    <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0">
    <title>Engine Comparison Table</title>
    <style>
        body {
            font-family: Arial, sans-serif;
            background-color: #f8f9fa;
            margin: 0;
            padding: 20px;
        }
        table {
            width: 100%;
            border-collapse: collapse;
            margin-top: 20px;
            font-size: 16px;
        }
        th, td {
            padding: 12px;
            text-align: center;
            border: 1px solid #ddd;
        }
        th {
            background-color: #2F4F4F;
            color: white;
            font-size: 18px;
        }
        td {
            font-size: 16px;
            background-color: #F0F8FF;
        }
        .image-container {
            text-align: center;
            margin-bottom: 10px;
        }
        .image-container img {
            width: 100px;
            height: auto;
        }
    </style>
</head>
<body>

<h2 style="text-align:center;">Engine Comparison Table</h2>

<!-- Engine Images -->
<div class="image-container">
    <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/GE_F404.jpg/500px-GE_F404.jpg" alt="GE F404 IN">
    <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/GE_F414.jpg/500px-GE_F414.jpg" alt="GE F414">
    <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Eurofighter_EJ200.jpg/500px-Eurofighter_EJ200.jpg" alt="EJ2000">
    <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Safran_M88.jpg/500px-Safran_M88.jpg" alt="M88">
    <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Kaveri_Engine.JPG/500px-Kaveri_Engine.JPG" alt="Kaveri">
    <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/IHI_XF5_Engine.jpg/500px-IHI_XF5_Engine.jpg" alt="IHI XF5">
</div>

<!-- Table -->
<table>
    <thead>
        <tr>
            <th>Engine Model</th>
            <th>Dimensions (mm)</th>
            <th>Bypass Ratio</th>
            <th>Compressor Stages</th>
            <th>Metallurgy</th>
            <th>Thrust Dry (kN)</th>
            <th>Thrust Wet (kN)</th>
            <th>Overall Pressure Ratio</th>
            <th>Engine Type</th>
            <th>Source</th>
        </tr>
    </thead>
    <tbody>
        <tr>
            <td>GE F404 IN</td>
            <td>1,500 x 1,100</td>
            <td>0.28</td>
            <td>9 (Axial-Flow)</td>
            <td>Titanium, Steel</td>
            <td>59</td>
            <td>83</td>
            <td>30</td>
            <td>Twin-spool, low-bypass afterburning turbofan</td>
            <td>General Electric (GE)</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
            <td>GE F414</td>
            <td>1,570 x 1,120</td>
            <td>0.32</td>
            <td>10 (Axial-Flow)</td>
            <td>Titanium, Steel</td>
            <td>77</td>
            <td>98</td>
            <td>32</td>
            <td>Twin-spool, low-bypass afterburning turbofan</td>
            <td>General Electric (GE)</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
            <td>EJ 2000</td>
            <td>1,530 x 1,200</td>
            <td>0.45</td>
            <td>12 (Axial-Flow)</td>
            <td>Al-Li, Steel</td>
            <td>90</td>
            <td>100</td>
            <td>35</td>
            <td>Twin-spool, low-bypass afterburning turbofan (blisks for weight reduction)</td>
            <td>Rolls-Royce</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
            <td>M88</td>
            <td>1,600 x 1,200</td>
            <td>0.25</td>
            <td>10 (Axial-Flow)</td>
            <td>Titanium, Steel</td>
            <td>75</td>
            <td>94</td>
            <td>30</td>
            <td>Twin-spool, low-bypass afterburning turbofan (FADEC enabled)</td>
            <td>Safran</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
            <td>Kaveri</td>
            <td>1,200 x 1,000</td>
            <td>0.35</td>
            <td>14 (Axial-Flow)</td>
            <td>Alloy Steel</td>
            <td>50</td>
            <td>62</td>
            <td>28</td>
            <td>Twin-spool, low-bypass afterburning turbofan (Indigenous design)</td>
            <td>GTRE</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
            <td>IHI XF5</td>
            <td>1,550 x 1,100</td>
            <td>0.50</td>
            <td>11 (Axial-Flow)</td>
            <td>Titanium, Steel</td>
            <td>75</td>
            <td>95</td>
            <td>35</td>
            <td>Twin-spool, low-bypass afterburning turbofan (Thrust vectoring enabled)</td>
            <td>Mitsubishi Heavy Industries</td>
        </tr>
    </tbody>
</table>

</body>
</html>

Can you also include the weight of each engine for better comparison?

 

[Anants]

Can you also include the weight of each engine for better comparison?

 

[Blademaster]

View attachment 18708

Much obliged. Moderators, please make this post a sticky!