MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[johny_baba]

A thread to discuss everything about Indian Air Force's highly ambitious MRCA competition and tender - now post Rafale times

 

[Abhijeet]

Airbus Joins India’s Fighter Jet Competition with advanced Eurofighter (Tranche 5)​

Airbus Joins India’s Fighter Jet Competition with advanced Eurofighter

In a bold move for India’s massive Medium Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) tender, Airbus has unveiled its latest iteration of the Eurofighter Typhoon. With India seeking to acquire 114 jets, Airbus is positioning its Tranche 5 variant of the Eurofighter as a top contender for this prestigious...

jetlinemarvel.net

 

[darkflame]

Airbus Joins India’s Fighter Jet Competition with advanced Eurofighter (Tranche 5)​

Airbus Joins India’s Fighter Jet Competition with advanced Eurofighter

In a bold move for India’s massive Medium Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) tender, Airbus has unveiled its latest iteration of the Eurofighter Typhoon. With India seeking to acquire 114 jets, Airbus is positioning its Tranche 5 variant of the Eurofighter as a top contender for this prestigious...

jetlinemarvel.net

Typhoon may have a chance and the biggest reason is that Dassault isn't ready to make rafales with HAL,they want to produce in their own factory in India,making sure no TOT happens

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

Typhoon may have a chance and the biggest reason is that Dassault isn't ready to make rafales with HAL,they want to produce in their own factory in India,making sure no TOT happens

first nd last qus should be:- do our government nd IAF ready to spend 30+ billion dollars (by old deal parameters) deal of 114 MRFA fighters??
secondly after buying 36 rafale, typhoon dont make sense. it will complecate logistics etc. typhoon comes with atleast 4 countries veto power.
this time best option is buy directly 36 more rafale....nd focus on making 32-36 fighter per year production facility. so we can get atleast 200 tejas mark 1a nd 200 tejas mark 2 untill 2037 approx. that time may be AMCA will ready for production, although i think it will take 2040.

 

[BON PLAN]

Typhoon may have a chance and the biggest reason is that Dassault isn't ready to make rafales with HAL,they want to produce in their own factory in India,making sure no TOT happens

You are wrong.
No one want to work with HAL. They worked for Boeing : a pity. They made the Mirage 2000 upgrade : it crashed.
HAL is a lazy company. They thought they are good, but they aren't so good.

No ToT ? a factory built in India is running with indian workers, indian engineers. Only top brass is french, specially about financial aspects.

EF2000 : it will loose for the same reasons it lost before : Only air to air potent (the Su30MKI role), short legs, problems of stability and agility with massive loads, german components....

 

[darkflame]

You are wrong.
No one want to work with HAL. They worked for Boeing : a pity. They made the Mirage 2000 upgrade : it crashed.
HAL is a lazy company. They thought they are good, but they aren't so good.

No one wants to work with Dassault either rafales only get puny orders from 3rd world countries,whom you are able to successfully bribe. don't compare yourselves with Boeing what ever they are they are miles ahead of you guys technologically." no one wants to work HAL " what it is lmao, another cope after rafales is better than F35

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

first nd last qus should be:- do our government nd IAF ready to spend 30+ billion dollars (by old deal parameters) deal of 114 MRFA fighters??
secondly after buying 36 rafale, typhoon dont make sense. it will complecate logistics etc. typhoon comes with atleast 4 countries veto power.
this time best option is buy directly 36 more rafale....nd focus on making 32-36 fighter per year production facility. so we can get atleast 200 tejas mark 1a nd 200 tejas mark 2 untill 2037 approx. that time may be AMCA will ready for production, although i think it will take 2040.

I also wanted that they may give order for 54 rafale with 26 rafale marine so that we get good price too but thats a sensible thing govt doesnt like that

 

[BON PLAN]

No one wants to work with Dassault either rafales only get puny orders from 3rd world countries,whom you are able to successfully bribe. don't compare yourselves with Boeing what ever they are they are miles ahead of you guys technologically." no one wants to work HAL " what it is lmao, another cope after rafales is better than F35

LOL.
Greece, Croatia, UAE are 3rd world countries ? Congrats. You are prouving in 3 sentences that you are an idiot.

 

[Spitfire IX]

I can see the MRFA competition taking so long (started 2019, I think) that it will run close to the Tejas Mk2 timeline.

MRFA timeline guess
down selection 2025
selection 2026
contract 2027
FAL ready and production start 2029/2030

Tejas Mk2 optimistic guess
certified 2029
production start 2031

Why not just order 36/54 more Rafale and wait for Tejas Mk2? Rafale would serve as an insurance in case of very late AMCA delivery near 2040.

 

[Spitfire IX]

I see today in idrw and indiandefenceupdates media that India wishes to apply late delivery penalties for MRFA. If an OEM is affected by world supply disruption of materials needed for production, would a late delivery penalty clause for MRFA make those materials more available?

I think that penalties would (a) raise the price OEM's would offer (b) cause problems if Indian component suppliers were late delivering, so delaying MRFA deliveries (c) cause some or all of the OEM's to scrap their proposed bid. Not a clever idea.

I think that MRFA, as now proposed, should be scrapped. It promises to be a waste of time and money for all concerned.

 

[Abhijeet]

I see today in idrw and indiandefenceupdates media that India wishes to apply late delivery penalties for MRFA. If an OEM is affected by world supply disruption of materials needed for production, would a late delivery penalty clause for MRFA make those materials more available?

I think that penalties would (a) raise the price OEM's would offer (b) cause problems if Indian component suppliers were late delivering, so delaying MRFA deliveries (c) cause some or all of the OEM's to scrap their proposed bid. Not a clever idea.

I think that MRFA, as now proposed, should be scrapped. It promises to be a waste of time and money for all concerned.

Suppose if an american company is selected for MRFA (F-21, F-15EX, F/A-18E/F). Due to supply chain issues if the concerned company is unable to deliver the aircraft as per the deadline given in yet to be signed contract, do you think India will penalise the americans? US deep state is capable of creating the hell out of India just like they did in Bangladesh recently.

India should cancel this MRFA procurement. But IAF needs fighters right now due to dwindling squadron strength.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Suppose if an american company is selected for MRFA (F-21, F-15EX, F/A-18E/F). Due to supply chain issues if the concerned company is unable to deliver the aircraft as per the deadline given in yet to be signed contract, do you think India will penalise the americans? US deep state is capable of creating the hell out of India just like they did in Bangladesh recently.

India should cancel this MRFA procurement. But IAF needs fighters right now due to dwindling squadron strength.

If India feels it would not be able to activate penalty clauses against US OEM's, why incorporate penalty clauses in the deal?

Whatever OEM failed to deliver on time, if GOI wanted Indian-made components in the chosen aircraft and one of those (let's say a hydraulic pump) was late, would the OEM be responsible for the delay in delivering the aircraft?

MRFA is too late to mitigate IAF's fighter crisis. 5 years on, the type selection process has not yet been completed. What confidence can anyone have in the hopelessly deficient procurement process resulting in MRFA being delivered to IAF in a timely manner? IAF has an urgent need to arrange supply of a fighter suited to replacing M2K, Jaguar and MiG-29.

Tejas Mk2 is also cursed by the Indian procurement process but looks a better risk than MRFA to me in terms of getting IAF supplied with the fighters it needs.

IAF cannot have fighters now. Tejas Mk1A may be available in small numbers soon but not now. No other new build fighters could be delivered for several years.

 

[Spitfire IX]

A stopped clock is wrong nearly all the time but is nevertheless right twice a day. On that basis I pass on the Indian Defence Updates story that KF-21 could be joining the MRFA tender.

To me it would be a good choice. AMCA could become a 5.5G aircraft to be manufactured sometime between 2040 and 2050. ROK proposes development of an engine of similar dimensions to F414 that produces more thrust than F414, avoiding the need to develop an engine for AMCA.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtWEOyWFKmA

 

[SlayingHell]

A stopped clock is wrong nearly all the time but is nevertheless right twice a day. On that basis I pass on the Indian Defence Updates story that KF-21 could be joining the MRFA tender.

To me it would be a good choice. AMCA could become a 5.5G aircraft to be manufactured sometime between 2040 and 2050. ROK proposes development of an engine of similar dimensions to F414 that produces more thrust than F414, avoiding the need to develop an engine for AMCA.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtWEOyWFKmA

The entire fighter jet circus is India is due to lack of domestic engine and Uncle Sam being unreliable. And you are here suggesting again to import a plane that is no different from Rafale but with more con being equipped with American engines. Add on to that you again saying no need to develop engine for AMCA?

 

[Spitfire IX]

The entire fighter jet circus is India is due to lack of domestic engine and Uncle Sam being unreliable. And you are here suggesting again to import a plane that is no different from Rafale but with more con being equipped with American engines. Add on to that you again saying no need to develop engine for AMCA?

If the KF-21 is not a candidate for MRFA, I would say the obvious choice is Rafale. If KF-21 is a candidate, the choice becomes more complicated.

The probability of AMCA flying with a non-US engine by 2035 is extremely low IMO. The probability of KF-21 flying with a non-US engine by 2035 is much higher IMO. The engine is supposed to be a 'drop in' replacement for F414. Hanwha, an ROK company, will be the lead developer. India could join with Hanwha in developing the engine.

If included in MRFA, I see reasons to commend KF-21, for reasons beyond strict MRFA considerations.

 

[SlayingHell]

If the KF-21 is not a candidate for MRFA, I would say the obvious choice is Rafale. If KF-21 is a candidate, the choice becomes more complicated.

The probability of AMCA flying with a non-US engine by 2035 is extremely low IMO. The probability of KF-21 flying with a non-US engine by 2035 is much higher IMO. The engine is supposed to be a 'drop in' replacement for F414. Hanwha, an ROK company, will be the lead developer. India could join with Hanwha in developing the engine.

If included in MRFA, I see reasons to commend KF-21, for reasons beyond strict MRFA considerations.

Importing Rafale makes sense since ecosystem is already setup here and it is a more mature product. You are correct that probability of AMCA flying with Non-US Engine by 2035 is not even low, its Big Fat Zero. It can only rely on F-414 until a Domestic Engine materializes. In terms of Engine, even for a country with Matured Engine Ecosystem and Legacy it takes 10 years at minimum to realize High Performance Fighter Jet Engine. The KF-21 Program yielded quick results because Lockheed Martin helped them. This is for Airframe itself, and I don't think anyone helps them know-how and know-why in much more guarded secret as Jet Engines. Even 10 years would be a Miracle that too with a International Partner.

As for you suggestion of DRDO partnering with Hanwha, its not gonna happen. Koreans have Inferiority-Superiority Complex and it touches more on Culture than Geopolitics .They only suck up to Big Brothers.

 

[Spitfire IX]

As for you suggestion of DRDO partnering with Hanwha, its not gonna happen. Koreans have Inferiority-Superiority Complex and it touches more on Culture than Geopolitics .They only suck up to Big Brothers.

Korean arrogance may be a problem, by the sound of it. However, if Korea can build an engine that India cannot build, their superiority in this domain is a fact. It needs a strange sort of 'national' psychology to recognise another country's know how and expertise are superior but to find acknowledging that superiority so unpalatable that you choose not to benefit from it - and forgo the chance of getting what you badly need, namely a non-American engine for AMCA (and possibly Tejas Mk2).

 

[sathya]

Korean arrogance may be a problem, by the sound of it. However, if Korea can build an engine that India cannot build, their superiority in this domain is a fact. It needs a strange sort of 'national' psychology to recognise another country's know how and expertise are superior but to find acknowledging that superiority so unpalatable that you choose not to benefit from it - and forgo the chance of getting what you badly need, namely a non-American engine for AMCA (and possibly Tejas Mk2).

We ll have two experimental 5 th generation aircraft at hand we ll make a deal now.

Decade later, it may be promising if Amca didn't take off.

 

[BON PLAN]

A stopped clock is wrong nearly all the time but is nevertheless right twice a day. On that basis I pass on the Indian Defence Updates story that KF-21 could be joining the MRFA tender.

To me it would be a good choice. AMCA could become a 5.5G aircraft to be manufactured sometime between 2040 and 2050. ROK proposes development of an engine of similar dimensions to F414 that produces more thrust than F414, avoiding the need to develop an engine for AMCA.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtWEOyWFKmA

South Korea has no habit to study and produce jet engine. I'm afraid of another Kaveri story....

 

[BON PLAN]

If the KF-21 is not a candidate for MRFA, I would say the obvious choice is Rafale. If KF-21 is a candidate, the choice becomes more complicated.

The probability of AMCA flying with a non-US engine by 2035 is extremely low IMO. The probability of KF-21 flying with a non-US engine by 2035 is much higher IMO. The engine is supposed to be a 'drop in' replacement for F414. Hanwha, an ROK company, will be the lead developer. India could join with Hanwha in developing the engine.

If included in MRFA, I see reasons to commend KF-21, for reasons beyond strict MRFA considerations.

KF-21 is a nice aero show jet : so far it has absolutely no weapon system (ie a multimode radar that works with the electronical counter measures system without jamming each other, a sensor fusion that works without too much false alarm, a powerfull threat data base, etc....)
Remember the time needed to transform Rafale in a mature fighter, same for F35.
KF-21 may be fully effective in 10 years, at best.