MRCBF: Dassault Rafale M for Indian Navy

[ArjunMK1A]

Ninja technique to fool Kadi Ninda. After all the original intention is to make Private Sector capable of manufacturing Aerospace tolerant fuselages and Assembly with MRCA competition and Foreign OEM is to impart that expertise to our Private Sector. What's the use of that black box model Dassault gonna do?

This only happens if we are going for the original MMRCA of 126 Jets, these G2G deals are not going to care about it. Dassault is just using its Indian Subsidiary to offset some sub assembly, help them to reduce cost. For GOI it can save face that some X percent is being coming from India.

The second Major aircraft manufacturer will be going to manufacture our own Jets. AMCA will going to have the second system integrator. If GOI is not happy with HAL, then even Tejas MK2 will split with the second manufacturer.

 

[MarDePopins]

Dassault will not fulfill any promise after fighters are delivered they will ask huge money to integrate Astra or drag many years to agree. These French have always fooled us in offset clause + tot in scorpene subs and initial Rafale order of 36.

Lol frenchies also leeched us with mirage upgrade fiasco..

Check this

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/high-cost-of-mirage-2000-upgrade-raises-eyebrows/articleshow/18804336.cms

Why India is set to miss 2021 deadline to upgrade Mirage 2000 fighters

The contract for the upgrade of 51 Mirage 2000s was signed in 2011. Sources say only about 50% upgrade has been completed & the programme will take another 2-3 years to finish.

theprint.in

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Dassault will not fulfill any promise after fighters are delivered they will ask huge money to integrate Astra or drag many years to agree. These French have always fooled us in offset clause + tot in scorpene subs and initial Rafale order of 36.

Scorpenes will be MLUed with our AIP Propulsion. Rafales were the conclusion of long ass procurement saga we started in 2006. We don't have an twin engine fighter apart from Sukhoi and majority of other jets were in retirement age. This will also be the last fighter purchase from outside, unless Chandigarh lobby strikes again.

Future will be like this
1. 215 - Tejas MK1A and MK1
2. 200-250 - MWF (Tejas MK2)
3. Approx 150 - Rafale
4. Approx 272 - SU 30MKI (All upgraded versions)
5. AMCA.

Others will be junked out and this will be the most streamlined we have in our history. Some of members have drank F-35 Kool aid, if Dassault itself stingy to integrate Indian Weapons, Americans will literally refuse to do this.

 

[shade2]

Dassault will not fulfill any promise after fighters are delivered they will ask huge money to integrate Astra or drag many years to agree. These French have always fooled us in offset clause + tot in scorpene subs and initial Rafale order of 36.

These French tricks are known for a long time.

Supposedly many years before the Scorpene deal was signed, the Admirals wanted submarine launched Exocets( because piggies had submarine launched Harpoons ), but the French wanted the Scorpene deal signed first.

Admirals actually got it in writing from the French, as a part of the contract that Exocets would be sold to India irrespective of Scorpene purchase or not.

So the cure for this lies in getting all this on paper, and getting the French to sign on it with penalties if they don't live up to their end.

If you fall for the >"Trust me bro" scam you've already lost.

For that our baboos have to be competent or not sold out, but that's a rant for another day.
For e.g the French made a chutiya out of us with the Scorpene deal, many things( steel, equipment, supplies ) weren't on the contract/deal and had to be purchased seperately by MDL

 

[shade2]

Scorpenes will be MLUed with our AIP Propulsion. Rafales were the conclusion of long ass procurement saga we started in 2006. We don't have an twin engine fighter apart from Sukhoi and majority of other jets were in retirement age. This will also be the last fighter purchase from outside, unless Chandigarh lobby strikes again.

Future will be like this
1. 215 - Tejas MK1A and MK1
2. 200-250 - MWF (Tejas MK2)
3. Approx 150 - Rafale
4. Approx 272 - SU 30MKI (All upgraded versions)
5. AMCA.

Others will be junked out and this will be the most streamlined we have in our history. Some of members have drank F-35 Kool aid, if Dassault itself stingy to integrate Indian Weapons, Americans will literally refuse to do this.

Chandigarh Lobby has a 100% strike rate from HAL Ajeet, HAL Marut and HAL Tejas soon.
Import Marshalls hands are waiting to strangle Tejas mk2 and AMCA once flying prototypes are ready and they can play trial-trial.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Chandigarh Lobby has a 100% strike rate from HAL Ajeet, HAL Marut and HAL Tejas soon.
Import Marshalls hands are waiting to strangle Tejas mk2 and AMCA once flying prototypes are ready and they can play trial-trial.

Depends on who will be next IAF chief. Current Chief while crying about Rafale everyday, but he also silently told us that HAL needs an Buddy to make them work like a proper company, Armed forces suffered a lot from this Monopoly of Defense PSU.

 

[shade2]

Depends on who will be next IAF chief. Current Chief while crying about Rafale everyday, but he also silently told us that HAL needs an Buddy to make them work like a proper company, Armed forces suffered a lot from this Monopoly of Defense PSU.

Every syllable that the current ACM has uttered has the approval of GoI , otherwise such public statements wouldn't be made

It is not the ACM or Airforce that wants a private sector fighter jet manuf, it's the govt

 

[MarDePopins]

Scorpenes will be MLUed with our AIP Propulsion. Rafales were the conclusion of long ass procurement saga we started in 2006. We don't have an twin engine fighter apart from Sukhoi and majority of other jets were in retirement age. This will also be the last fighter purchase from outside, unless Chandigarh lobby strikes again.

Future will be like this
1. 215 - Tejas MK1A and MK1
2. 200-250 - MWF (Tejas MK2)
3. Approx 150 - Rafale
4. Approx 272 - SU 30MKI (All upgraded versions)
5. AMCA.

Others will be junked out and this will be the most streamlined we have in our history. Some of members have drank F-35 Kool aid, if Dassault itself stingy to integrate Indian Weapons, Americans will literally refuse to do this.

Lol whole list is inflated with only 5th gen vectors to arrive by 2035 that too being completely optimistic with timelines.. while both our prime adversaries will be flying their respective 5th gen vectors.. northen one in huge no nd in 2035 will shift into 6th gen..

REALISTIC list

Rafale - 76 no in IAF as it seems repeat order of 40 will come ( 36+40) till 2032
Mk2 - 120 no in IAF hv committed (production to start by 2029-30 while being optimistic)
180- mk1A (delivery by 2031-32 atleast)
Su 30 upgrade - 84 now with upgrade starting by 2028..
AMCA mk1 - 40 in no with production starting in 2035

 

[obiwankenobi]

Chandigarh Lobby has a 100% strike rate from HAL Ajeet, HAL Marut and HAL Tejas soon.
Import Marshalls hands are waiting to strangle Tejas mk2 and AMCA once flying prototypes are ready and they can play trial-trial.

Trust me.

Patience has run out at the highest level. The political leadership has had enough of our Generals. Actually don't trust me, recently heard new DefSec saying this early this year, when they kicked off the whole "year of defence reforms" thing. The most blunt expression of what the government is thinking.

EDIT:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01A19xBxYjc

 

[shade2]

Trust me.

Patience has run out at the highest level. The political leadership has had enough of our Generals. Actually don't trust me, recently heard new DefSec saying this early this year, when they kicked off the whole "year of defence reforms" thing. The most blunt expression of what the government is thinking.

It's the other way around, Govt seems to have surrendered to Generals.
Or rather to stop being cheap and bolster the armed forces through whatever means, imported or desi.

As i've said in other places, the main obstacle to import was the Govt being miserly and scared of "scams" allegation, and likewise the Generols like petulant children playing the trial-trial game with domestic hardware, contrary to the Navy model of making Lemonade from the budgetary Lemons.

It seems for now everyone is on the same page.

 

[laxman09]

French maal works and the ray bans drool over it ever since they started flying their Mirage 2000s, but they're literally worth their weight in gold.

1 Rafale C empty weight is 21,000 lbs. At current rates you can buy 1 lbs gold for $47,000 so for 21,000lbs you'll need to pay $987m... We're paying $280m per bird!!

Hope they sign the deal for the next round of Rafale for the ray-bans next year and be done with it. They want another 114 but might get another 72 and then we close this chapter.

Kaveri, Mk2, ORCA and AMCA are crying for funds FFS!

 

[shade2]

Someone should hire an unknown gun men and finish this Chandigarh lobby of iaf and army. My blood boils seeing porkys deploying SPH and ours MGS is still on display trials are yet to conclude. fucking Armenia purchased from us when army fools were busy on ATAHS. ATAGS went up whole solar system trials to get half the orders.

Delete the first sentence or some orop on twitter will get mad and threaten to ban the forum.

 

[Nutcracker]

French maal works and the ray bans drool over it ever since they started flying their Mirage 2000s, but they're literally worth their weight in gold.

1 Rafale C empty weight is 21,000 lbs. At current rates you can buy 1 lbs gold for $47,000 so for 21,000lbs you'll need to pay $987m... We're paying $280m per bird!!

Hope they sign the deal for the next round of Rafale for the ray-bans next year and be done with it. They want another 114 but might get another 72 and then we close this chapter.

Kaveri, Mk2, ORCA and AMCA are crying for funds FFS!

Barebone AC costs around 120M. Rest are for spares and armament.

 

[BHARAT KA BETA]

I have a question, " Do the upcoming Indian Navy 26 Rafale M possess folding wing mechanism? "... If anyone has any information regarding this, Please Share. Thank you.

 

[BON PLAN]

How much payload can a Rafale take off with on a ski jump?

What India needs to do is convert INS Vikrant and its follow-on to CATOBAR. 100% can be done, especially with EMALS, and the work can classify as literally just a refit. Similar option was proposed for HMS Prince of Wales but later turned down because of cost (UK shipbuilding is tooooooo expensive).

There is already enough power onboard with LM2500 turbines delivering a total of 320 MW. An EMALS launch only requires about a 100MW, that too for just the 2-3 seconds when it actually launches the bird. You can even have a large power reserve in super capacitors or many other solutions.

Then you can have higher sortie rates, Rafales taking off with full payload, ability to operate F35C in the future, and even AWACS operating off the deck.

We have seen a Rafale with 2x2000l tanks + 1 exocet + 4 MICA during the STOBAR try.
Ie : 2 x 2000L tanks (full or empty or ???) + 700kg + 4 x 100kg

 

[BON PLAN]

Not sure about 114 but another bunch of reports say 40 will be purchased in G2G form for IAF, It's well within chindi Govt's budget without breaking the bank.

I believe the MRFA carrot needs to be dangled to get the other vendor nations to behave themselves, especially Dolund's America
Just dangled, cancel it after 10 years

For the beginning my bet was for a final between 72 and 108 Rafale for IAF. Not more.
Let's see.

 

[BON PLAN]

I have a question, " Do the upcoming Indian Navy 26 Rafale M possess folding wing mechanism? "... If anyone has any information regarding this, Please Share. Thank you.

No folding wings : the choice was made early in the developpement stage because it add a lot of weight and reduce the G load factor (as SH18 is 7.5G limited).

So the french Navy agreed not to have folding wings, but the delta config naturally gas a lower width than classical jet. But it is indeed a penalty.

 

[obiwankenobi]

We have seen a Rafale with 2x2000l tanks + 1 exocet + 4 MICA during the STOBAR try.
Ie : 2 x 2000L tanks (full or empty or ???) + 700kg + 4 x 100kg

Thats impressive for the plane and frankly more than I thought it would be.

But as a capability thats pretty pathetic, reducing your payload by 50%. Thats primarily an anti ship configuration with 1 missile. The MICAs are for self defence and Rafale carries 4 of those in any configuration just like Tejas carries two ASRAAMs.

With catapult you can take off with the whole 8 ton payload, possibly even more. The circle around that carrier more than doubles in radius. The effective sortie rate increases by a factor of 2 as well.

 

[obiwankenobi]

REALISTIC list

Rafale - 76 no in IAF as it seems repeat order of 40 will come ( 36+40) till 2032
Mk2 - 120 no in IAF hv committed (production to start by 2029-30 while being optimistic)
180- mk1A (delivery by 2031-32 atleast)
Su 30 upgrade - 84 now with upgrade starting by 2028..
AMCA mk1 - 40 in no with production starting in 2035

Interesting, so IAF will have 40 5th gen and 360 4th gen fighters. We won't just be China's bitch, but even Pakistan's bitch.

PLAAF 2035 (40? 6th gen, 1000 5th gen, 1100 4th gen)
J10 - 610 upgraded to the latest S standard, possibly even later upgrades including engines
J11 - 245 upgraded with possibly newer systems and engines
J16 - 300+ with more upgrades and new engines
J20 - 1000+ although they might decide to limit orders. 200 in service today and producing 120 a year. These will also be upgraded with new engines by then.
J36 - some initial numbers of 6th gen LRIP fighters,
J7 - Retired
Su35 - Retired
Su30MKK/2 - Retired
JH7 - Retired


PAF 2035 (80 5th gen, 340 4th gen)
J35 - Assuming at least 80 (current order for 40 being negotiated, they will have those by 2030)
JF17B3 - 160 all upgraded to block 3, no future orders as they are moving to J10
J10CE - 20 plus definite future orders. I will assume 100+
F16 - 85 upgraded to latest block 70 standard. Or retired altogether if US doesn't support
Mirage 3/5 - Retired
F7 - Retired


Unrealistic but this is the MINIMUM IAF we need by 2035 in order to just survive and not end up being Pakistan's bitch
IAF 2035 (190 5th gen, 450+ 4th gen)
F35A - 150 (sadly, no other option. Su57 is not a thing. We can't buy J35/KAAN)
AMCA Mk1 - first 40 hopefully
Rafale - 76
Su30MKI - 100+ of the newest ones, heavily upgraded with new avionics, engines, aesa.
Tejas Mk1A - 182 (83+99)
Tejas Mk2 - 200+
Jaguar - Retired
Mirage2k - Retired
Su30MKI - Retired, older ones
Mig21 - Retired
Mig29 - Retired

 

[MarDePopins]

Interesting, so IAF will have 40 5th gen and 360 4th gen fighters. We won't just be China's bitch, but even Pakistan's bitch.

PLAAF 2035 (40? 6th gen, 1000 5th gen, 1100 4th gen)
J10 - 610 upgraded to the latest S standard, possibly even later upgrades including engines
J11 - 245 upgraded with possibly newer systems and engines
J16 - 300+ with more upgrades and new engines
J20 - 1000+ although they might decide to limit orders. 200 in service today and producing 120 a year. These will also be upgraded with new engines by then.
J36 - some initial numbers of 6th gen LRIP fighters,
J7 - Retired
Su35 - Retired
Su30MKK/2 - Retired
JH7 - Retired


PAF 2035 (80 5th gen, 340 4th gen)
J35 - Assuming at least 80 (current order for 40 being negotiated, they will have those by 2030)
JF17B3 - 160 all upgraded to block 3, no future orders as they are moving to J10
J10CE - 20 plus definite future orders. I will assume 100+
F16 - 85 upgraded to latest block 70 standard. Or retired altogether if US doesn't support
Mirage 3/5 - Retired
F7 - Retired


Unrealistic but this is the MINIMUM IAF we need by 2035 in order to just survive and not end up being Pakistan's bitch
IAF 2035 (190 5th gen, 450+ 4th gen)
F35A - 150 (sadly, no other option. Su57 is not a thing. We can't buy J35/KAAN)
AMCA Mk1 - first 40 hopefully
Rafale - 76
Su30MKI - 100+ of the newest ones, heavily upgraded with new avionics, engines, aesa.
Tejas Mk1A - 182 (83+99)
Tejas Mk2 - 200+
Jaguar - Retired
Mirage2k - Retired
Su30MKI - Retired, older ones
Mig21 - Retired
Mig29 - Retired

U got the jist about how phuvked IAF is when compared to its peers.. however ur list is on optimistic side for PAF & IAF.. while china is a different behemoth.. we won't be able to compete on the scales of china for few coming decades with our inept nd lethargic DPSUs plagued with badudom culture..

Problem with emotional peeps here is that they are happy squandering our defence preparedness while chanting atmanirbharta jargon. They are so delusional that they think that we will fight PAF 5th gen J35 with our tejas mk1A lol.. while both are adversaries will be running circles around IAF with their respective 5th gen.. ours we hv to wait for 2035 heck that is decade away..

Nd here peeps are ranting against capabilities induction why because it's easy to pass comments from the comfort of their home.. while it's the men in our armed forces who hv to go fight the real enemy not these keyboard warriors..

Ek din me 5th gen nhi bante it takes decades of experiences .. while for all our domestic jets we have like mk1A, mk2, AMCA we have placed our bets on inefficient HAL whose inefficiencies hv been flagged in CAG audits..

CAG pulls up state-run HAL for mismanagement in aircraft engine project that caused loss of Rs 159-cr

In report on PSUs tabled in Parliament, auditor says Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd did not plan design and development activities properly, nor did it envisage the associated risks.

theprint.in

Both IAF nd GOVT knows that we lack horribly in our defence preparedness thus we are seeing some movements in south block

https://www.financialexpress.com/business/defence-why-delay-the-fighter-jets-for-the-iaf-says-the-parliamentary-committee-on-defence-3019056/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThe%20government%20should%20consider%20buying,Government%20are%20treating%20as%20important.

From the above article parliamentary committee advised govt to-
"The government should consider buying state-of-the-art fifth-generation fighter aircraft over the counter without losing time to keep the force in a comfortable position,” the committee said."