TEDBF or ORCA Updates

[randombully]

There's another solution

If the next aircraft carrier is CATOBAR then you can easily modify the AMCA design for a new naval fighter

No.

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

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The Indian Navy is also looking to acquire the indigenous fifth-generation aircraft which will be developed in the next few years by the Defence Research and Development Organisation

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

Can F-35 be launch from ski-jump type carries, it seems to be able to do so from Queen Elizabeth class.

 

[NerVik]

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The Indian Navy is also looking to acquire the indigenous fifth-generation aircraft which will be developed in the next few years by the Defence Research and Development Organisation

Link seems fishy, is there any other source for this?

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

Link seems fishy, is there any other source for this?

Pretty much only source

 

[vicky]

View: https://youtu.be/lZo2zwrKrME?si=bU70f6p4AuOALM2J

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

View: https://youtu.be/lZo2zwrKrME?si=bU70f6p4AuOALM2J

Defence matrix makes these video where he just states some possibilities, they don't have any misinformation but aren't that helpful imo.

 

[vicky]

India is rapidly advancing in military technology with two indigenous fifth-generation fighter programs, the TEDBF for the Navy and the AMCA for the Air Force, aimed at enhancing its defence capabilities and achieving self-reliance.​

Amid China concerns, India ramps up its 5th gen fighter jet programs

India is rapidly advancing in military technology with two indigenous fifth-generation fighter programs, the TEDBF for the Navy and the AMCA for the Air Force, aimed at enhancing its defense capabilities and achieving self-reliance.

www.indiatoday.in

 

[Azaad]

India is rapidly advancing in military technology with two indigenous fifth-generation fighter programs, the TEDBF for the Navy and the AMCA for the Air Force, aimed at enhancing its defence capabilities and achieving self-reliance.​

Amid China concerns, India ramps up its 5th gen fighter jet programs

India is rapidly advancing in military technology with two indigenous fifth-generation fighter programs, the TEDBF for the Navy and the AMCA for the Air Force, aimed at enhancing its defense capabilities and achieving self-reliance.

www.indiatoday.in

From the article

While it will not have full stealth capabilities, it will incorporate radar-evading technologies to enhance survivability.

5th Gen tech will come only after TEDBF has received FOC followed by FOC of AMCA Mk-1 & FF of AMCA Mk-2 i.e post 2035.

As of now only the US operates a 5th Gen Naval Fighter . I'd take Chinese claims of J-35 being 5th Gen with a fistful of salt. The very fact they've designated it for the export market & not the J-20 is a giveaway . At best it's a quasi 5th Gen FA.

Secondly maintanence of the F-35 on land is a tough cost intensive exercise. You can well imagine the kind of maintenance it'd take to keep up operational availability & tempo in case of a war at sea where salinity & humidity take a huge toll on the FA's life & performance.

This means the IN which has the least budget of all the forces will be severely constrained in operating the 5th Gen FA. That'd happen only if their budget is pumped up for which we need to get from a 4 trillion + USD GDP to at least an 8 trillion USD GDP.

Besides as far as the IN goes it needs a CATOBAR AC to fulfill its wish of flying a 5th Gen FA . Where's it ? As of now we haven't even seen CCS sanction for the IAC-2 which has been pending for 3-4 yrs . Let that come through.

Whatever we're considering w.r.t to 5th Gen be it in realising the tech or the platform for it will all be for the 2030s & later. I'd argue even if we go in for a 65,000 Ton CATOBAR AC or IAC-3 with IEPS it'd still serve as a platform for the TEDBF.

After all we've seen reports for procurement of 60 nos TEDBF . Not all of it will go into the proposed IAC -2.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

@SKC @Blademaster @Suryavanshi @Vinash @Indx TechStyle @haldilal
Something has to be done to avoid redundancy.
Either rename older thread to like "4th gen TEDBF", " Naval 4th gen fighter", etc, or merge these 2 threads.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

There is an indication by IN about 5gen TEDBF, means complete stealth.
See the 1st ticked point.

View attachment 25330

IDK the complete video or transcript but the current TEDBF design could be scrapped or heavily modified. Bcoz MWF will fly 1st so 1st-hand delta-canard expertise will come through it, no need for redundant Naval delta-canard, basically same airframe design. So MWF can act as TD like X-35 & final Naval TEDBF can be stealthy like F-35C, although inflated to 2-engine AHCA.
So, ideally a bigger Su-33 size airframe would be required. To hope for Naval AMCA, 1st DoD needs to show custom weapons for AMCA's IWB (not just SAAW), increased IWB capacity more than 4 AAMs. And then will-power to modify AMCA or cleansheet design AHCA. But the 1st step of RFI/RFP itself is missing.

The era of 5gen is said to begin with B-2 & F-117 revealed in 1988, then YF-22/23 revealed in 1990.
They were developed in 1980s & initiated in 1970s.
There has been only indication by IN for 5gen TEDBF. IDK if RFI/RFP has been released.
So we are 30-40 years behind



There are 2 options now - tweak AMCA or current TEDBF design, but IMO they need to be inflated with stronger engines for a good airframe TWR to take-off & carry sufficient minimum custom weapons.
Our engine JV shoud cater to this, meanwhile we should arrange interim engine for prototype.

Also, a panic has been created about humidity, salinity, etc as if it is a solid barrier in way of tech advancement. It sounds like 4.5gen is the end of line & pinnacle of Naval jet tech & no future version of RAM & RAS can protect the jets in affordable cost. On land/sea, in space, deep under water, if something needs to be done will be done. So let's not fuel this point which goes against stealth naval jet rather than being constructive & progressive.

The next carrier should have EMALS which should be sanctioned a.s.a.p.

 

[Azaad]

The era of 5gen is said to begin with B-2 & F-117 revealed in 1988, then YF-22/23 revealed in 1990.
They were developed in 1980s & initiated in 1970s.
There has been only indication by IN for 5gen TEDBF. IDK if RFI/RFP has been released.
So we are 30-40 years behind

View attachment 25584

There are 2 options now - tweak AMCA or current TEDBF design, but IMO they need to be inflated with stronger engines for a good airframe TWR to take-off & carry sufficient minimum custom weapons.
Our engine JV shoud cater to this, meanwhile we should arrange interim engine for prototype.

Also, a panic has been created about humidity, salinity, etc as if it is a solid barrier in way of tech advancement. It sounds like 4.5gen is the end of line & pinnacle of Naval jet tech & no future version of RAM & RAS can protect the jets in affordable cost. On land/sea, in space, deep under water, if something needs to be done will be done. So let's not fuel this point which goes against stealth naval jet rather than being constructive & progressive.

Frankly I don't think you've understood what I've written there. There're technology constraints & then there's the OPEX as far as the IN goes TODAY , which isn't an assumption or speculation, it's a plain fact.

Further please check on the OPEX spent by the USAF on maintaining the F-35A which is the land version. You may get similar OPEX statistics for F-35B & C versions from the GAO website as well.

Now extrapolate that to the Indian scenario & check the IN's OPEX budget & tell me the amount you think theyd be able to spare for OPEX of say a N-AMCA in TODAY'S context.

I've never written developments in Naval Aviation with 4.5th Gen ends coz of technology constraints like what you've mentioned.

The IN were in discussions with ADA for a potential N-AMCA till it was made clear by the latter they lack the resources to develop two 5th Gen FA simultaneously , that too one Deck Based FA for the IN.

Eventually both charted out a road map for executing an advanced 4.5th Gen ++ FA which would theoretically serve the same purpose as the LCA Mk-2 for the AMCA Mk-1 , in demonstrating certain technologies which goes into the AMCA or the N-AMCA in case of the IN & wait for full realisation of the AMCA Mk-1 , post which they'd go in developing the N-AMCA.

The next carrier should have EMALS which should be sanctioned a.s.a.p.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Frankly I don't think you've understood what I've written there. There're technology constraints & then there's the OPEX as far as the IN goes TODAY , which isn't an assumption or speculation, it's a plain fact.

Further please check on the OPEX spent by the USAF on maintaining the F-35A which is the land version. You may get similar OPEX statistics for F-35B & C versions from the GAO website as well.

Now extrapolate that to the Indian scenario & check the IN's OPEX budget & tell me the amount you think theyd be able to spare for OPEX of say a N-AMCA in TODAY'S context.

I've never written developments in Naval Aviation with 4.5th Gen ends coz of technology constraints like what you've mentioned.

The IN were in discussions with ADA for a potential N-AMCA till it was made clear by the latter they lack the resources to develop two 5th Gen FA simultaneously , that too one Deck Based FA for the IN.

Eventually both charted out a road map for executing an advanced 4.5th Gen ++ FA which would theoretically serve the same purpose as the LCA Mk-2 for the AMCA Mk-1 , in demonstrating certain technologies which goes into the AMCA or the N-AMCA in case of the IN & wait for full realisation of the AMCA Mk-1 , post which they'd go in developing the N-AMCA.

Buddy, i sense a change in your replies as if someone has taken over your account.
I didn't quote you, so it is not about your statement, but i've watched certain reasons given so many times that i feel some people are reflexive negators, discouragers, possible psycological influencers, misleaders, saboteurs. So much negativity & pessimism, I doubt if they really want something better for our forces. We've seen the drama on StartFront which still continues, right?

Technology constraints, challenges, hurdles, complexities, etc are NORMAL part of Engineering.
Some people panic way too much.
So whatever be the CAPEX & OPEX, it didn't stop making of F-35, F-22, F-117, B-2, B-21, NGAD.
Moreover, repeating myself, our Socialist mixed economy is supposed to be more economical than Capitalist free market one. If we can't regulate properly, it is our fault.
We have our RAM & RAS today.

In most populous country with technical colleges in almost every city, 10s of 1000s of tech students passing out every year, If ADA, DRDO, HAL lacks resources then obviously it should expand. we need private startups also which are coming actually in aerospace for example, but not so critical in aeronautics yet.
Hence, I also said that our linear approach is contributing problem, rather than parallel, independent projects like in USA, Russia, China.



ADA, DRDO, HAL have monopoly w/o competition, accountability which is a big problem. And they keep blaming each other.

A decade after YF-22/23, with F-35 underway, our people in early 2000s were thinking about 1-engine N-LCA. But our RAM & RAS R&D might have started in 2000s, right?
MWF was initiated in 2009 as upgrade of LCA, ok fine but it should have been AMWF.
We got MiG-29K in 2009 onwards.
AMCA was initiated in 2010, very late. J-20 flew in 2011.
TEDBF was initiated in 2020, again very late.
So whatever ROADMAP the IN, ADA, GoI/MoD/CCS had made is not working anymore
Deep into era of 5gen they couldn't see this coming earlier?



Again i said this earlier that after revealing of YF-22/23, 35 years have been less for ADA to give stealth geometry to MWF & TEDBF.
Don't worry, IAF will also cry against MWF soon if it doesn't transforms to AMWF, otherwise Su-75 import tender will come.
Can't people see a simple thing that every fighter jet flies with some minimum payload. We just have to bring them closer to center-line in an IWB, that's all, nothing rocket science. I'll come up with an updated diagram of following which i showed earlier on MWF thread:



So bcoz our RAM & RAS R&D started long back, hence right from beginning,
> MWF could have been 5gen AMWF.
> either AMCA & TEDBF could have been 1 program of common-fuselage jet like Rafale & F-35.
OR
TEDBF could have been steathy 5gen.

Defence is something, either you adapt, upgrade, catch up with time or be ready for war, defeat, invasion, occupation, slavery, territory snatching, looting, etc. We alread had our 1000+ years.