Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[ArjunMK1A]

Too expensive. New Build F35s are cheaper than new build Su30MKIs.

Let that sink in. HAL maxxed out its line at 18 birds a year. LM Fort Worth will deliver 189 F35s this year. Economies of scale are altogether another ballgame.

HAL is useless at maximizing economics.

Order size of 1000s versus order size of 200-240 SU-30MKI.

HAL will not churn out 100+ for the above order size. Even Tejas is maxed out for 8 per year. 83 meaning 10 years. But if IAF goes with extra 97 then we can expect them to upgrade to 16 per year output.

Even LM is going on an decade production. HAL also doing the same. Only thing the order size is small and rate of production is low to maintain production line.

HAL still answerable to Share holders, if they mismanage like this, then their financials gets hit. Unfortunately aerospace sector still a no go for Private companies due to Huge Capex. IAF requirement is still dicey. TASL is one of the principle integator apart from HAL. But they went with C-295 which has India + orders. Other vendors becomes sub-contractor to HAL.

How much MWF you need? Whether it is 12 squadron. Will it increase on par with Chinese squadron size.
Are we going with MMRCA? Whether it is Rafale or anything else?
Are we going to ditch MMRCA with 5th Gen fighters like F-35 or SU-57?
If 5th Gen ordered from outside. What is the requirement of AMCA?


Current 42 squadron is enough to handle the current war scenario. Or do we need additional squadrons.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Now with planned F-35 purchase, the Pakistani psyche has been fully damaged. Before that they were celebrating their purchase of third rate Chinese stealth fighter. They were quick to point out that PAF is 7 to 10 years ahead of IAF. That has been floored. Now they are going around to point out expensive purchase of F-35. Well, India can afford it because they are the one with a begging bowl in hand; India is ten times bigger economy, 50 times bigger cash reserves and exports of $800 billion. It is expensive for them. It is all right to India, if that is what it takes to pull them to the ground.

Okay, now I'm seriously concerned. Why are you so obsessed with Pakistan Sir!?


Just one launching point, hidden well inside our borders, using just two types of missiles, that too lower tiered (BrahMos and Prithvi-III) we're able to cover pretty much the whole of the landmass...and still there you're, damaging their psyche!
Why Sir

 

[samsaptaka]

Guys guys guys important!



What's in it for the generals? How do they get the piece of the pie in case of foreign mal?



we need to explore the mechanics of corruption.

I don't think there is a report anywhere that explain how high ranking defense personnel conduct their money minting.

For a report you need to have an investigation first. For an investigation to happen, GoI or PMO should recognise that there is problem first and more importantly have the balls to conduct investigation against serving gernails and babooze, maulana has neither. So stalemate

 

[Nutcracker]

Not much of a difference because unlike other planes with two variants it lacks a folding wing. So changes should be limited to things like different undercarriage, arresting hook, etc. One tiring part of a theoretical conversion would be adding salt-water corrosion prevention measures to every single exposed part; but then again just tiring, not complicated.

But the conversion won't be the biggest issue; this would be...

No matter what happens, they're not giving up their newish planes. Especially with the kind of rift services have among them.

Thats why I wrote "we/MoD should take", something has to give. Airforce can start enjoying budget-rafale/MK2 by the time transfer takes place. 4 F-35 squadrons should satisfy AF's ego. Although apart from their ego, another problem is what to do with S-400 batteries. All S400 for Pakis, Kusha in 4-5 years for Xhina.

Need to swap the Entire wing structure. May be an easy work. But next part is to replace the undercarriage of M variant.

Under carriage, landing gears, yes.. wing structure doubtful.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Thats why I wrote "we/MoD should take", something has to give. Airforce can start enjoying budget-rafale/MK2 by the time transfer takes place. 4 F-35 squadrons should satisfy AF's ego. Although apart from their ego, another problem is what to do with S-400 batteries. All S400 for Pakis, Kusha in 4-5 years for Xhina.


Under carriage, landing gears, yes.. wing structure doubtful.

Regarding the wing. It should be swap. Most probably entire wing is an sub assembly. Similar to Tejas.




Then final will be certification of Upgrades by Dassault.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Thats why I wrote "we/MoD should take", something has to give. Airforce can start enjoying budget-rafale/MK2 by the time transfer takes place. 4 F-35 squadrons should satisfy AF's ego.

4 maybe 5 squadrons of F-35 are max what IAF can get past the CAG, and not without significant pushback and hours of power point chai biskit sessions. IAF is not going to fulfill their MRFA requirements of 120+ birds with F-35. I expect a repeat order of 36 Rafales for IAF.

 

[Bleh]

F35KMKB


View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1892598276005773771

View: https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1892525199762870355

 

[Hari Sud]

Okay, now I'm seriously concerned. Why are you so obsessed with Pakistan Sir!?

View attachment 25666
Just one launching point, hidden well inside our borders, using just two types of missiles, that too lower tiered (BrahMos and Prithvi-III) we're able to cover pretty much the whole of the landmass...and still there you're, damaging their psyche!
Why Sir

Just to damage Pakistani psyche who had grown overconfident with their purchase of Chinese Stealth fighter.

 

[daya]

Keep cool, nothing is going to happen. Imports will be there. Tejas ko chhodo.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Just to damage Pakistani psyche who had grown overconfident with their purchase of Chinese Stealth fighter.

I bit skeptical as to how they'll pay for J-35s when they can barely afford more J-10s. But Pakistanis were always proactive in these things, they have been trying to get J-10s since early 2000s, before MRFA was even floated.

 

[Hari Sud]

I bit skeptical as to how they'll pay for J-35s when they can barely afford more J-10s. But Pakistanis were always proactive in these things, they have been trying to get J-10s since early 2000s, before MRFA was even floated.

Chinese never anything free. The Pakistanis have $75 billion debt with China including $55 billion for useless CPEC road. The Pakistanis will not pay but trade away Gawadar port to the Chinese. That would be perpetual fight with the Chinese.

 

[bruno]

They are talking about Rafale M mainly which is pretty expensive machine both to procure and maintain due to economic of scale (rather lack of it) and Froggs insistence of local manufacturing (that is prohibitively expensive for mass market product). Also it’s going to have way less development potential than something like F35 with huge MIC and customer base to back it up.

You want to twist the reality to comfort your opinion. But it doesn't work.

you WANT that the Rafale M to be more expensive and so much different from the C/B version for justifying the fact to switch to the F35. Ok... Got your point. But facts are facts and your opinion is based on twisted facts.

Is Rafale M different from Rafale C/M ? YES
Does it have an impact on the maintenance cost ? YES
Is this difference important ? NO

Why ? Because when it comes to compare maintenance cost, you have to take into account all the different systems and hardware. and 95% of the systems between ALL Rafale are the same. Is the way the mainframe is different have an impact on maintenance ? NO. Because there is no maintenance on structure.
But you'll have maybe something with the integrated ladder, or main landing gear or tail hook.

Anyway, F35C is a nighmare of maintenance. F35 is 2,5X more higher when it comes with cost per flight hour. Availability is also very poor. 30% of full mission capable availability !! Ask the IAF !

Now, when it comes with production cost, sorry but.. Rafale M production cost is about 57 millions of euros (in 2013, without taxes, which is the price a foreign country is paying, I can explain this separately), when for F35C is 100 millions of US dollars. Rafale M Production cost is ruffly the same for the air variant, because, again, almost all the system are the same. Engines which represent 25% of the plane cost are the same. Avionics which represent between 30 and 40% of the cost are the same. Only the structural airframe is quite different. so on average the Rafale M could be something like 15% expensive. What a big deal !

Sorry but if you want to search for advantages over the F35C, there are some, but not here.

 

[Mangal]

A very good analogy given by Shiv aroor in his podcast explaining the problem with F 35 deal is by comparing with an imaginary Iphone where the phone might be best in the world in itself but if we are not able to connect it to services like Gmail, YouTube and other third party apps we won't be able to use it to its full potential. Made sense.
However, every expert that I have listened to is talking about problems with the deal. No one is able to suggest a solution that would take the IAF, GOI and the country out of this mess. If anyone has they should do this nation a great service by guiding MOD and IAF and most importantly the nation. This problem has been created by dedicating over 30! years. and might take as much time if not more to come out of it.
The people and agencies that were responsible for keeping the country safe by proper planning and timely decision making have messed it up. And now no one seems to find an answer for this situation whereas a country that is nearly bankrupt will be having 5th gen planes in few years. While AMCA will do " FIRST FLIGHT " in 2036. That's when if "ALL GOES WELL"
On one interview Some old expert was talking and expressing anger at the supposed deal stating that there what will be the TOT? If there won't be TOT what do we get? Well we are getting a chance to not to get our asses beaten black n blue by the PLAF. You can sit in your room and talk TOT for the next 50 years you want and let the nation suffer a defeat and embarrassment that would dwarf 1962? TOT my .


View: https://youtu.be/2PlQbDenSZ4?si=hscvUB521IZVJ3D7

 

[AbRaj]

A very good analogy given by Shiv aroor in his podcast explaining the problem with F 35 deal is by comparing with an imaginary Iphone where the phone might be best in the world in itself but if we are not able to connect it to services like Gmail, YouTube and other third party apps we won't be able to use it to its full potential. Made sense.
However, every expert that I have listened to is talking about problems with the deal. No one is able to suggest a solution that would take the IAF, GOI and the country out of this mess. If anyone has they should do this nation a great service by guiding MOD and IAF and most importantly the nation. This problem has been created by dedicating over 30! years. and might take as much time if not more to come out of it.

Because let’s face it, we’ve fucked up big time. Our Defence policy is dysfunctional and needs a complete demolition and rebuilding job. Our Defense is in the hands of scoundrels and ignorants

The people and agencies that were responsible for keeping the country safe by proper planning and timely decision making have messed it up. And now no one seems to find an answer for this situation whereas a country that is nearly bankrupt will be having 5th gen planes in few years. While AMCA will do " FIRST FLIGHT " in 2036. That's when if "ALL GOES WELL"

True

On one interview Some old expert was talking and expressing anger at the supposed deal stating that there what will be the TOT? If there won't be TOT what do we get? Well we are getting a chance to not to get our asses beaten black n blue by the PLAF. You can sit in your room and talk TOT for the next 50 years you want and let the nation suffer a defeat and embarrassment that would dwarf 1962? TOT my .


View: https://youtu.be/2PlQbDenSZ4?si=hscvUB521IZVJ3D7

TOnTi is a chooran both the manufacturers and dalals love selling to dumb customers.
No one is going to hand hold you to make fighter jets, if you yourself are not interested.
They will keep you selling magical TOnTis for money and keep making fool out of yourself.

 

[Brood Father]

A very good analogy given by Shiv aroor in his podcast explaining the problem with F 35 deal is by comparing with an imaginary Iphone where the phone might be best in the world in itself but if we are not able to connect it to services like Gmail, YouTube and other third party apps we won't be able to use it to its full potential. Made sense.
However, every expert that I have listened to is talking about problems with the deal. No one is able to suggest a solution that would take the IAF, GOI and the country out of this mess. If anyone has they should do this nation a great service by guiding MOD and IAF and most importantly the nation. This problem has been created by dedicating over 30! years. and might take as much time if not more to come out of it.
The people and agencies that were responsible for keeping the country safe by proper planning and timely decision making have messed it up. And now no one seems to find an answer for this situation whereas a country that is nearly bankrupt will be having 5th gen planes in few years. While AMCA will do " FIRST FLIGHT " in 2036. That's when if "ALL GOES WELL"
On one interview Some old expert was talking and expressing anger at the supposed deal stating that there what will be the TOT? If there won't be TOT what do we get? Well we are getting a chance to not to get our asses beaten black n blue by the PLAF. You can sit in your room and talk TOT for the next 50 years you want and let the nation suffer a defeat and embarrassment that would dwarf 1962? TOT my .


View: https://youtu.be/2PlQbDenSZ4?si=hscvUB521IZVJ3D7

Lol. ..TOT should be the scam of century , GOI and IAF should get this through their thick skull ..no country will share their critical techs with you ..never ..you need to invest on RnD if you really want TOT

 

[ArjunMK1A]

A very good analogy given by Shiv aroor in his podcast explaining the problem with F 35 deal is by comparing with an imaginary Iphone where the phone might be best in the world in itself but if we are not able to connect it to services like Gmail, YouTube and other third party apps we won't be able to use it to its full potential. Made sense.
However, every expert that I have listened to is talking about problems with the deal. No one is able to suggest a solution that would take the IAF, GOI and the country out of this mess. If anyone has they should do this nation a great service by guiding MOD and IAF and most importantly the nation. This problem has been created by dedicating over 30! years. and might take as much time if not more to come out of it.
The people and agencies that were responsible for keeping the country safe by proper planning and timely decision making have messed it up. And now no one seems to find an answer for this situation whereas a country that is nearly bankrupt will be having 5th gen planes in few years. While AMCA will do " FIRST FLIGHT " in 2036. That's when if "ALL GOES WELL"
On one interview Some old expert was talking and expressing anger at the supposed deal stating that there what will be the TOT? If there won't be TOT what do we get? Well we are getting a chance to not to get our asses beaten black n blue by the PLAF. You can sit in your room and talk TOT for the next 50 years you want and let the nation suffer a defeat and embarrassment that would dwarf 1962? TOT my .


View: https://youtu.be/2PlQbDenSZ4?si=hscvUB521IZVJ3D7

Unless the flight Mission computer is Indian. It is difficult to integrate Indian weapons. Everything needs to be certified by OEM.

Certification - Cost in USD.

We are at the stage where we have our own Arsenal of Missiles.

BVR - Astra MK1, Astra MK2
WVR - No Indian version.
Anti Radiation Missile - Rudram 1, Rudram 2.
Bombs - Gaurav, Gautam, HSLD
Precision Strike - TARA


Also the upcoming Support Combat system like CATS, Abhimanyu.

We will we ripped off by Foreign OEM for this Integration. To avoid we end up importing the weapons of those planes. Ends in premature death of Indian product.

TOT is a scam. No one going to give secrets like West gave to China. SAFRAN will still manufacture the Hot section and HAL cold section. Whatever critical it will be from Foreign OEM.

 

[Azaad]

I bit skeptical as to how they'll pay for J-35s when they can barely afford more J-10s. But Pakistanis were always proactive in these things, they have been trying to get J-10s since early 2000s, before MRFA was even floated.

They'd get the J-35 the same way they got the J-10s thru credit repaying the Chinese at usurious rates over the years. That's not the issue.

The issue is what do they get ? Quite obviously it'd be a monkey model & frankly I don't even think the J-35 would be a Stealth / VLO FA but more of a quasi stealth FA. The Chinese will subject it to the same restrictions the US does with all those they've sold the F-35 to.

End of the day , Paxtan is a very leaky place . Information flows are both ways from the US to China & vice versa sometimes thru the same conduit.

I'd also be interested in knowing the kind of restrictions they've set on the sale of the J-10s to Paxtan . Not that it matters to the Americans but it's important from our PoV for with the J-35 all they'd do is multiply those restrictions.

 

[BON PLAN]

Its Airframe is totally different due to different requirements for carrier ops. LRU and component commonalities are irrelevant for the conversation

NO.
Only the front frame and undercarriage are different.
What make the price, engine, radar, electronic support systems ARE THE SAME.

 

[BON PLAN]

Need to swap the Entire wing structure. May be an easy work. But next part is to replace the undercarriage of M variant.

NO.
Same wings for all Rafale.
The stronger (for carrier use) the better (longer life span for air variants).

 

[ezsasa]

Year	System	Quantity	Cost	Remarks
1996	SU-30MKI	50
2000	SU-30MKI	140
2002	IL-78 MKI	6		Air refuelling
2004	BAE Hawk	66
2007	SU-30MKI	40
2008	JAGUAR	68	2400 Cr.	DARIN 2 upgrade by HAL
2008	BAE Hawk	40
2008	Akash SAM	2 Squadrons		Order given
2009	SPYDER SAM	18 Squadrons		Order Given
2009	MR-SAM			Contract signed but project delay by 4 years
2010	C-17	10
2010	Akash SAM	6 Squadrons		Order Given
2011	MAFI PHASE 1	30 airfields	36000 Cr.	completed in 2020 Modernisation of Airfields Infrastructure
2011	MIG-29 UPG	69
2012	Pilatus PC-7 Mk3	75
2012	SU-30MKI	42
2012	Akash SAM			Delivery begins
2012	SPYDER SAM			Delivery completed
2013	C-130J	12
2015	CH-47 Chinook	15
2015	AH-64E Apache	22
2015	Akash SAM			Induction
2016	JAGUAR	3		DARIN 3 IOC
2016	Rafale	36	59000 Cr.	Contract signed
2018	SU-30MKI			First domestic overhaul of existing inventory
2018	S-400	5 Squadrons	35000 Cr.
2019	Rafale			First delivery
2020	MAFI PHASE 2
2021	C-295	56	21935 Cr.	Order
2021	LCA-MK1A	83	48000 Cr.
2021	SU-30MKI			Last of 222 order delivered
2021	MR-SAM	18 Squadrons	8396 Cr.	Induction starts
2021	S-400			First Delivery
2022	Rafale			Delivery completes
2022	HTT-40 Trainer	70	6800 Cr.	Order
2022	S-400			Second Delivery
2023	S-400			Third Delivery
2024	AL-31FP engines	240	26000 Cr.	Order given, delivery period spread across 8 years

IAF acquisitions

Year	System	Quantity	Cost	Remarks
1996	SU-30MKI	50
2000	SU-30MKI	140
2002	IL-78 MKI	6		Air refuelling
2004	BAE Hawk	66
2007	SU-30MKI	40
2008	JAGUAR	68	2400 Cr.	DARIN 2 upgrade by HAL
2008	BAE Hawk	40
2008	Akash SAM	2 Squadrons		Order given
2009	SPYDER SAM	18 Squadrons		Order Given
2009	MR-SAM			Contract signed but project delay by 4 years
2010	C-17	10
2010	Akash SAM	6 Squadrons		Order Given
2011	MAFI PHASE 1	30 airfields	36000 Cr.	completed in 2020 Modernisation of Airfields Infrastructure
2011	MIG-29 UPG	69
2012	Pilatus PC-7 Mk3	75
2012	SU-30MKI	42
2012	Akash SAM			Delivery begins
2012	SPYDER SAM			Delivery completed
2013	C-130J	12
2015	CH-47 Chinook	15
2015	AH-64E Apache	22
2015	Akash SAM			Induction
2016	JAGUAR	3		DARIN 3 IOC
2016	Rafale	36	59000 Cr.	Contract signed
2018	SU-30MKI			First domestic overhaul of existing inventory
2018	S-400	5 Squadrons	35000 Cr.
2019	Rafale			First delivery
2020	MAFI PHASE 2
2021	C-295	56	21935 Cr.	Order
2021	LCA-MK1A	83	48000 Cr.
2021	SU-30MKI			Last of 222 order delivered
2021	MR-SAM	18 Squadrons	8396 Cr.	Induction starts
2021	S-400			First Delivery
2022	Rafale			Delivery completes
2022	HTT-40 Trainer	70	6800 Cr.	Order
2022	S-400			Second Delivery
2023	S-400			Third Delivery
2024	AL-31FP engines	240	26000 Cr.	Order given, delivery period spread across 8 years
2024	SU-30MKI	12	13,500 Cr.	62.6 % indegenous content
2024	RD-33 engines		5249.42 Cr.	100+ Mig-29 engines
2024	CIWS		7668.82 Cr.	Sudharshan from L&T
2024	High Powered Radar		5700.13 Cr.	Order given, delivery over 5 years

feel free to copy the table and update the list.