NETRA AEW&Cs Family. (1 Viewer)

[Kapil]

At this point no more awacs will arrive quickly.
If we are being forced to buy burgerican weapons we should just buy 5 to 6 e3 awacs that they are retiring as a stop gap solution.

Both Mk1 and Mk1A will arrive by 2030. I don't think even e3 will arrive before that if evaluation and negotiation starts now.

Also,
Under the tariff related negotiations, Viswaguru has probably given some promises.
We will end up buying more American stuff to maintain balance of trade.
One of the areas will be defence.
If that happens, I only want to max out on
(1) MH60 helicopters
(2) P8is and
(3)MQ-9B for Navy and
(4) Injuns for Tejas and MWF for IAF
(5) Electronics for ELINT and Recon aircrafts for ARC
That's it.
We possibly don't need US for anything else. Not for NASAMS, not for Stryker, Not for Sig rifles.

 

[Gyyaan]

IAF should have asked for more Embraer ERJ 145 based Nethra Mk1.
First they waited for DRDO Chapati on top of a Airbus A330.
Then they realised the cost is nearly $400-500M for a single one basis the order volumes and budget they have.
So they said let's buy more of Israeli Phalcom on IL-76. The vendors(both Russia and Israel) quoted rates which were 2-3 times of the first lot(due to inflation).
Then IAF realised they can't afford a Chapati, either on A330 or IL-76, so let's buy Nethra but ask for more changes and longer loitering time.
Someone decided 2nd hand A320s will do so Nethra Mk2 was born.
Then they woke up post Balakot and decided Nethra Mk1 is too good so let's order more Mk1 as well. This then became Mk1A.

Man, whichever way you look at it, it's f*ed up.
We should have gone for 9-12 Mk1 when it was successfully handed over and operated.

BTW - ERJ-145 has aerial refueling to extend time on station.

But no, we had awesome brains(even CDS level guys) saying buying in short numbers is good as they can keep getting latest versions with every lot. So we have 3 Phalcons and 3 Nethra.

If Nethra Mk2 is the way forward, why don't we max out on the orders? Order 15-18 of them basis A320s from 2nd hand market. But we somehow are masters in creating a zoo.

Here is what we will possibly have 10yrs from now :
1. Nethra Mk1 - 3 on ERJ-145
2. Nethra Mk1A - 6 on ERJ-145(2nd hand)
3. Nethra Mk2 - 6 on A320(2nd hand)
4. Phalcon - 3 on IL-76
5. Nethra XYZ Chapati -3 or 6 on A330


Total 21-24, 4 different systems based on 4 different platforms(assuming older Mk1 will be upgraded to Mk2 level electronics).
Total Netra Idli aka Mk3 plans have been shelved IIRC.

I may be wrong but Netra Idli aka Mk3 plans have been shelved.

 

[redpanda]

I may be wrong but Netra Idli aka Mk3 plans have been shelved.

Was there even one planned to begin with? I'm hearing about there being a Mk3 variant for the first time.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

I may be wrong but Netra Idli aka Mk3 plans have been shelved.

At the end of the day, it is an Radar on an plane. DRDO already developed the radar system. Depends on requirement of IAF which is supposed to be 6, they selected the A320 Platform. ]

Next step will be system integration on the plane. If IAF requirement for extra number with bigger platforms then we need to buy bigger planes.

 

[redpanda]

At the end of the day, it is an Radar on an plane. DRDO already developed the radar system. Depends on requirement of IAF which is supposed to be 6, they selected the A320 Platform. ]

Next step will be system integration on the plane. If IAF requirement for extra number with bigger platforms then we need to buy bigger planes.

Yep the issue is not with DRDO tbh. It's between IAF and Airbus. Airbus has no experience of converting this platform into AWAC. So they are demanding more money while IAF don't wanna give them that much money. Usual haggling drama. There were some reports in ThePrint irrc, that they have recently reached some level of understanding when it comes to cost negotiation..

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Yep the issue is not with DRDO tbh. It's between IAF and Airbus. Airbus has no experience of converting this platform into AWAC. So they are demanding more money while IAF don't wanna give them that much money. Usual haggling drama. There were some reports in ThePrint irrc, that they have recently reached some level of understanding when it comes to cost negotiation..

Yes, there is small cost war is going with Airbus and DRDO for Integration. Also Defense Ministry gave approval for Netra MK1A which is again based on ERJ Platform. The required number is 6 and hope these babus were sane enough to purchase those ERJs. Embraer have good rapport with us. Also we should swallow the pill and get that Airbus deal going on. We don't have any choice.

If all went well,

1. 3+6 = 9 Netra MK1 & MK1A variants based on ERJ145.
2. 6 Netra 2 based on Airbus A321

Total 12 AWACS planes along with 3 IL-76 AWE & CS.

Also we are also working on ISTAR and COMJAM Planes. Again for now, we did not procure planes for this. This is another big project currently gathering dust for now.

 

[Kapil]

Was there even one planned to begin with? I'm hearing about there being a Mk3 variant for the first time.

Assume Mk3 = Chapati on top of A330

I may be wrong but Netra Idli aka Mk3 plans have been shelved.

Nothing gets shelved. It's too costly right now but money will be found later on. Research done on it anyways will not go waste.

 

[Pundit Pikachu]

IAF should have asked for more Embraer ERJ 145 based Nethra Mk1.
First they waited for DRDO Chapati on top of a Airbus A330.
Then they realised the cost is nearly $400-500M for a single one basis the order volumes and budget they have.
So they said let's buy more of Israeli Phalcom on IL-76. The vendors(both Russia and Israel) quoted rates which were 2-3 times of the first lot(due to inflation).
Then IAF realised they can't afford a Chapati, either on A330 or IL-76, so let's buy Nethra but ask for more changes and longer loitering time.
Someone decided 2nd hand A320s will do so Nethra Mk2 was born.
Then they woke up post Balakot and decided Nethra Mk1 is too good so let's order more Mk1 as well. This then became Mk1A.

Man, whichever way you look at it, it's f*ed up.
We should have gone for 9-12 Mk1 when it was successfully handed over and operated.

BTW - ERJ-145 has aerial refueling to extend time on station.

But no, we had awesome brains(even CDS level guys) saying buying in short numbers is good as they can keep getting latest versions with every lot. So we have 3 Phalcons and 3 Nethra.

If Nethra Mk2 is the way forward, why don't we max out on the orders? Order 15-18 of them basis A320s from 2nd hand market. But we somehow are masters in creating a zoo.

Here is what we will possibly have 10yrs from now :
1. Nethra Mk1 - 3 on ERJ-145
2. Nethra Mk1A - 6 on ERJ-145(2nd hand)
3. Nethra Mk2 - 6 on A320(2nd hand)
4. Phalcon - 3 on IL-76
5. Nethra XYZ Chapati -3 or 6 on A330


Total 21-24, 4 different systems based on 4 different platforms(assuming older Mk1 will be upgraded to Mk2 level electronics).
Total

Oh and don't forget the masterstroke these guys were planning on doing by Combining Refuellers and AWACS in one

Nothing gets shelved. It's too costly right now but money will be found later on. Research done on it anyways will not go waste.

Chinese seems to have gone back to dual panel configuration in their circular rotodome, after experimenting with tri panel configuration, what exactly were our DRDO folks thinking here going with a 4 panel configuration

Post in thread 'NETRA AEW&Cs Family.'

Oct 1, 2024

Netra AEW&C(I) or Netra Mk 3 details from a older Technology Focus Documents

• Pundit Pikachu

• 

Both Mk1 and Mk1A will arrive by 2030. I don't think even e3 will arrive before that if evaluation and negotiation starts now.

Also,
Under the tariff related negotiations, Viswaguru has probably given some promises.
We will end up buying more American stuff to maintain balance of trade.
One of the areas will be defence.
If that happens, I only want to max out on
(1) MH60 helicopters
(2) P8is and
(3)MQ-9B for Navy and
(4) Injuns for Tejas and MWF for IAF
(5) Electronics for ELINT and Recon aircrafts for ARC
That's it.
We possibly don't need US for anything else. Not for NASAMS, not for Stryker, Not for Sig rifles.

The only thing we should be buying from the Burgerchods should be P8i (buy fooling 12 more of them for all I care) and F 404 and F 414 engines, nothing more nothing less.

 

[silentassassin265]

Both Mk1 and Mk1A will arrive by 2030. I don't think even e3 will arrive before that if evaluation and negotiation starts now.

Also,
Under the tariff related negotiations, Viswaguru has probably given some promises.
We will end up buying more American stuff to maintain balance of trade.
One of the areas will be defence.
If that happens, I only want to max out on
(1) MH60 helicopters
(2) P8is and
(3)MQ-9B for Navy and
(4) Injuns for Tejas and MWF for IAF
(5) Electronics for ELINT and Recon aircrafts for ARC
That's it.
We possibly don't need US for anything else. Not for NASAMS, not for Stryker, Not for Sig rifles.

E3 awacs are not being produced anymore, I was talking about the ones they are retiring as second hand purchase, with little refit they will arrive in a year

 

[Kapil]

E3 awacs are not being produced anymore, I was talking about the ones they are retiring as second hand purchase, with little refit they will arrive in a year

I am not sure where are you getting this impression that our own AWACS can't come early.

If we can find suitable 2nd hand ERJ-145( because new ones are not getting produced now), we will get Nethra Mk1A in 3 yrs.

Also, the timeline for delivery of Nethra Mk2 on Airbus A320 is also around 2026-27, so it will actually land earlier than Mk1A.

 

[Pundit Pikachu]

Highly Informative video presentation on Netra Mk-1

View: https://youtu.be/EL6y55-a2kg?si=rlb_iDeBlIwuhfWc


View: https://youtu.be/bvIx1gFVzRw?si=W4SOMJNTgK2tMv8y

2019 CABS presentation on this subject , for archival purpose post only.


View: https://youtu.be/O1h8MmydgcI?si=WZX1xrN6UfaG29h4

 

[NerVik]

Defence Expo 2012 Brochure of the Radar used on Netra Mk 1

View attachment 38871


"LSTAR" - ACTIVE PHASED ARRAY RADAR
(Long range Solid state Active aperture array Radar)

OBJECTIVES
• Development of Active Phased Array Radar in S Band Frequency, configured for a Medium PRF Pulsed Doppler Operation, with Multifunction Capabilities for Detection Ranges of 200 Kms to 300 Kms
• Technology Demonstrator APAR, with associated Subsystems and their Integration on a Ground Based Platform
• To meet the Specification Requirements of Primary Radar for AEW & C
• A Leading Radar Programme for the AEW & C System

Radar Detection Range : 200 Kms for 2m² target (Normal Mode)
300 Kms for 2m² target (Extended Mode)
Electronic Scanning : +60° in Azimuth
Azimuth Beamwidth : 1° (Receive) 0.66° (Transmit)
Elevation Beamwidth : 8.5°
Resolution : 200m in Range, 1.5° in Azimuth
Accuracy : 50 m in Range, 0.5° in Azimuth, 1° in Elevation

200km range against 2sq m seems too small a range. Can someone more knowledgeable explain under whag conditions normal range is used and when extended range is used and what strain does it put on the system to use extended range.

 

[Pundit Pikachu]

Defence Expo 2012 Brochure of the Radar used on Netra Mk 1


"LSTAR" - ACTIVE PHASED ARRAY RADAR
(Long range Solid state Active aperture array Radar)

OBJECTIVES
• Development of Active Phased Array Radar in S Band Frequency, configured for a Medium PRF Pulsed Doppler Operation, with Multifunction Capabilities for Detection Ranges of 200 Kms to 300 Kms
• Technology Demonstrator APAR, with associated Subsystems and their Integration on a Ground Based Platform
• To meet the Specification Requirements of Primary Radar for AEW & C
• A Leading Radar Programme for the AEW & C System

SPECIFICATIONS
Radar Detection Range : 200 Kms for 2m² target (Normal Mode)
300 Kms for 2m² target (Extended Mode)
Electronic Scanning : +60° in Azimuth
Azimuth Beamwidth : 1° (Receive) 0.66° (Transmit)
Elevation Beamwidth : 8.5°
Resolution : 200m in Range, 1.5° in Azimuth
Accuracy : 50 m in Range, 0.5° in Azimuth, 1° in Elevation




LONG RANGE SOLID STATE ACTIVE APERTURE ARRAY RADAR (LSTAR)

Long range solid state active phased array radar based on Transmit Receive modules and multifunction function capabilities for Surveillance, Detection and Tracking of airborne targets in the range of 200 Kms to 300 Kms and covering a volume of 240° in Azimuth.

FUNCTIONS
• Search, Verify, Track initialization & Tracking of targets
• Programmable waveforms
• Target Classification
• LPRF & MPRF operation
• Track while scan
• Built in Test Facility
• Online Calibration facility

BRIEF SPECIFICATIONS

• Radar Detection Range : 200 Kms for 2m² target (Normal Mode)
300 Kms for 2m² target (Extended Mode)
• Electronic Scanning : ± 120° in Azimuth : ± 2.5° in Elevation
• Azimuth Beamwidth : Rx. : 1° Tx : 0.7°
• Elevation Beamwidth : 8.5° (Receive)
• Resolution : 200 m in Range, 1.5° in Azimuth
• Accuracy : 30 m in Range, 0.5° in Azimuth, 2° in Elevation

TECHNOLOGY : State-of-the-art Planar antenna, Digital Receiver, COTS based SDP



LSTAR - CENTRAL UNIT

TECHNOLOGY
• DDS based Exciter Unit with Programmable Waveform Generator for better visibility & Clutter rejection
• 6 channel RF to Analog Receiver Down Converter Unit
• 6 Channel Digital Receiver Down Converter Unit
• Optical output to SP (SFPDP)
• Central Unit Controller on COTS board
• IOT Module
• RES Module

FEATURES
• Adaptive Waveform generation for better visibility & clutter rejection
• Programmable Pulse Expansion Waveform
• 2.5 μsec - 20μsec for Normal/Extended modes 100 μsec for sea surface modes
•LFM / Polyphase coded Pulse Expander waveform at COHO level
• Platform Motion Compensation
• Frequency Offset Correction of COHO during transmission

 

[liberalredditor]

200 km for 2m^2 target?? are we cooked?? i used to think its 350-400 km for 1 m^2 target given its an aewac with a huge radar compared to a fighter.

i hope netra mk1a and mk2 are much much better

 

[Pundit Pikachu]

200 km for 2m^2 target?? are we cooked?? i used to think its 350-400 km for 1 m^2 target given its an aewac with a huge radar compared to a fighter.

i hope netra mk1a and mk2 are much much better

@NerVik old data, as far as i am aware As of right now range is atleast 450 km in super extended mode, and 250 km in normal mode.

nevermind most of the PAF aircrafts will have a RCS higher than 2m² when they are on combat air patrol thanks to whatever payload they are carrying, do you really think JF 17s are that stealthy

 

[liberalredditor]

@NerVik old data, as far as i am aware As of right now range is atleast 450 km in super extended mode, and 250 km in normal mode.

nevermind most of the PAF aircrafts will have a RCS higher than 2m² when they are on combat air patrol thanks to whatever payload they are carrying, do you really think JF 17s are that stealthy
View attachment 38922

i am talking about trashcan17, i was worried about j35 which will definitely have rcs below 0.1 m^2, current aewacs would not be able to track j35 if it is used, and also paf isnt our sole enemy

plaaf has many jets which can go till below 2 m^2 thats why i was shocked to see the old data

 

[randombully]

the

i am talking about trashcan17, i was worried about j35 which will definitely have rcs below 0.1 m^2, current aewacs would not be able to track j35 if it is used, and also paf isnt our sole enemy

plaaf has many jets which can go till below 2 m^2 thats why i was shocked to see the old data

"Many jets" are all stealth ones, j20, stealth drone etc.
No "non stealth" jet in plaaf service has front arc rcs of lower than 2m2 when loaded with even light weapon load.

If we go by stealth flanker sims, Rafale which the frenchies hype has rcs higher than 2m2 in x band front front when loaded with just lighter weapons load.

 

[randombully]

View: https://x.com/Aryan_warlord/status/1932349074910417209

 

[Pundit Pikachu]

Defence Expo 2014 Brochure of Netra Mk 1 and related subsystems

Features
• Primary AESA Surveillance Radar
• Secondary Surveillance Radar
• Electronic Support Measures
• Communication Support Measures
• C'-Band Data Link , 'Ku'-Band SATCOM
• V/UHF Voice / Data link
• Mission System Controller
• Self Protection Suite
• Five Operator Work Stations

Performance
• Service Celing : 35,000ft ASML
• Radar Operational Altitude : 30,000ft AMSL
• Endurance: 5 Hours
• Additional Internal Fuel Tanks with in Flight Refueling System

Primary Surveillance Radar

The primary sensor for the AEW&C is an Active Electronically Steered Array Radar operating in 'S' band. Two radiating planar arrays assembled back to-back and mounted on top of the aircraft fuselage provide coverage on either side of the Antenna Array Unit.

The sensor has the abilities to search, track-while-scan, priority tracking, high performance tracking etc. In priority tracking, the targets are placed in full track mode where the target updates are increased depending upon the target type and its maneuvering capability etc.
In high performance tracking, additional measurements are made to improve tracking accuracies, Utilizing the active aperture technology the radar provides a system that can operate in several modes concurrently.


Secondary Surveillance Radar

The Secondary Surveillance Radar or the Identification Friend or Foe system determines whether the target detected by the primary radar is a 'friend' or 'foe'. The system is IFF MK XII(S) which is capable of operating in various Modes 1,2,3/A,C,4 and S ( level 2). It is designed as per the regulations laid down by International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Annex 10 and Standardisation of NATO Agreement (STANAG) 4193.



Mission System Controller

The Mission System Controller integrates information from all mission sensors. Functions include mission controls, data storage & multi sensor data fusion, database management, integrity function, health monitoring, time synchronization, bus control and other housekeeping functions. In addition it can carry out the Intercept Control Functions. It interfaces with the Data Handling and Display System for all operator control and display features

 

[Pundit Pikachu]

Defence Expo 2014 Brochure of Netra Mk 1 related subsystems


Data Handling and Display System

Data Handling and Display System facilitates mission system operators to interface with the AEW&C system. The AEW&C system has five Operator Work Stations for Surveillance, interception, ESM and CSM functions. All the consoles are reconfigurable as required.
In general, menus, display and other presentation logic can be performed by each console. The system helps in planning of the mission, communication handling, mission data preparation and handling



Electronic Support Measures and Communication Support Measures

The ESM and CSM Systems support detection and monitoring of hostile radar and communication signals

The ESM system covers a wide range of frequencies and has a coverage of 360° in azimuth. Variants are available up to 'Ku' and 'Ka' band. The system provides bearing and location of the hostile emitters to augment the AEW&C mission.

The system is capable of analyzing and identifying the emitter characteristics with a very high frequency and directional accuracy. The system provides the facility to scan through a database library of a large number of emitters. The system also has the capability to record the data for post flight analysis.

The CSM system intercepts communication signals and provide the capability to monitor and analyse signals in-flight. It additionally records the signals on-board for post-flight analysis



Data Link

The system has a 'C' band LOS and 'Ku' band SATCOM link for data and voice communication between AEW&C aircraft and GES. AEW&C system is capable of interoperating with other AEW&C systems, fighters & other early-warning and air-defence system on the ground. The system is capable of being interfaced with existing user networks.


Mission Communication System

The Mission Communication System provides Air-to-Air, Air-to-Ground V/UHF voice and data channels. It also provides integrated control of all on-board communication sets and intercom for the mission Operators as well as flight crew. The communication channels have in-built ECCM features as well.



AEW&C Support System

The ground complement of AEW&C consists of Ground Exploitation Station (GES) and 'C & 'Ku' band ground data terminals. Mission Planning and Analysis station supports the preparation of mission plan and offline analysis of recorded data. The Operator Training Station (OTS) is available for training of operators. An ATE is provided for functional performance checking of aircraft mission systems.