Operation Sindoor and Aftermath

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SwordOfDarkness said:
This sentence seems to be the fundamental problem with your description of the situation.....

Yes, stealth is such a ludicrous advantage that not having it is suicidal vs an opponent that does. It is the be all and end all in modern air combat.

Pakistan's problem, is that unlike china, it cannot have a fleet of 5th gen - Even their own analysis doesnt go beyond two squadrons, which would provide little to no resistance if Indian ground based missile systems are adequately developed to deny airfield operations.

Regarding the "parallel" drawn between J20 and Su57, it is completely wrong. Su57 stealth is just better than Rafale in clean configuration. OTOH, J20 is just slightly worse than F35. Is J-20 without issues? Not at all. But to pretend that it is not an issue for us is a Paki level delusion we should not fall to.

Like the ex ACM said, I think we should push for MUMT drones while expanding missile numbers, and wait till AMCA. For a while, the chinese will also not be able to wield all their 5th gen planes against us, they just dont have the numbers on their side for a realistic 24/7 CAP over sino Indian border. (shiv had a vid calculating this iirc). Till the time they develop that, we could sort out our stealth fighter.


But if you cant wait, or dont want risk, go for F35. IMO ideal scenario would be leasing 2-3 sqn F35s for 10-15 years, but IDTS thats an option, so buying is not irrational.
Click to expand...

It's not, 6th gen focus will not be allowed about stealth.

J20 is a paper tiger with no proven capability and dubious stealth capabilities.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

'Mighty Dragon's hidden flaws: IAF Rafales outclass ‘overhyped’ PLA jets' | India News - Times of India

India News: The Chengdu J-20, also known as the "Mighty Dragon," a Chinese 5th-generation stealth fighter, has come under scrutiny for its stealth capabilities an.
timesofindia.indiatimes.com timesofindia.indiatimes.com

I never argued that J20 or J35 is not an issues. It's the whole reason I'm arguing for Su57 as a counter till the time AMCA comes online.

If Rafael allowed integration with our systems , I'd recommend to go for a few squadrons, but that's unlikely.

F35 is moronic with US restrictions and no integration with our systems. Going for G414 was idiotic too and we are seeing the delays.

Maintenance of F35 is a nightmare and will suck more funds. Besides, the US will never allow their use against Porkies.

As I have repeated several times, if we feel we can handle J20 or J35 without a 5th gen fighter jet of our own, go for it. If not, there is no viable option apart from Su57.
 
Muzh said:
I partially agree with you. It is true that India bitchslapping Chinese military equipments brought some relief to USA; and now, USA will be bolder in defending Taiwan if it came to that.

However, it is would be a colossal mistake to imagine that USA is happy about India bitchslapping Chinese military equipments. Why? As we saw during Operation Sindhoor, Pakistan's usefulness as a nuisance against India is rapidly diminishing. This means USA would need a new scarecrow against India. USA establishment was hoping, China could be that new scarecrow against India. If you examine Operation Shindhoor in this light, only then you would realize USA's predicament, or rather disappointment. The ease with which India brought Pakistan to her knees in mere two days of war, made many established power brokers including USA very uncomfortable. China's helplessness was particularly noteworthy. There were several reports that Chinese satellites provided guidance data to Pakistan but those reports are wrong; India successfully jammed communications between Chinese satellites and Pakistanese military equipments; this is another reason why China was so keen on stopping the war.
Click to expand...

I get your point and agree to an extent.

The US was certainly taken aback by our offensive capability but what would have really hurt is our defensive capability that prevented any Porki attack from landing.

I don't believe we will see any new offers of significant defense sales to India from the US anytime soon. Not that we should even consider any of them.
 
All this noise about the J31........

How many times have we heard this bullshit before? Oh the Pakistanis are being armed with Western and Chinese equipment and India is under-prepared. All of you folks who are running around with their tails tucked between your legs fearing some stealth jet might lock onto it, how much of India's capabilities which were showcased in Op Sindoor were you aware of? You need to read more about Chinese military platforms, their testing and their pricing strategies to understand what a f***ing sham Chinese def equipment is. EVEN IF the Chinese jets are worth their weight in salt, Pakistan won't be getting any, atleast for the next 4-5 years. And btw, a 5th gen fighter is like a Bugatti Veyron. A million dollars to buy and then 150k for a freaking oil change. Even if Pakistan get the Bugatti for free, neither do they have the fuel to keep refilling every 12 mins, nor do they have the 150k for the oil change. This is all geopolitical fear mongering. The only reason China is making a big show of offering the J31 to Pakis is because Trump stirred up a media storm by claiming that India is gonna get the F35 and Pakistan needed an equivalent narrative. Simple as that. Time will prove this.


All this noise about F35 or Su57.......

How many times has the US stabbed India in the back? EVEN NOW in the present moment Trump is trying to backstab Modi. You think the Americans will allow us to fly the F35s in the event that Op Sindoor 2.0 needs to be carried out? Do you think they'll allow India to integrate the F35s in the IACCS or NC3I with all the other Russian equipment? Do you think they'll allow India to do future India specific upgrades like we did to the Sukhois and MiGs. A big fat NO. F35 in IAF inventory is as good as a paper plane on your office desk that you can do aerial patrolling in. Sure, it adds to deterrence but what about when this deterrence is tested?
Now let's look at Big Red. Is Russia a WAY more reliable partner than USA? ABSOLUTELY. But the Su57 is essentially not in the same class as the F35 or J31. It's a much larger jet, akin to the J20 or F22. But it nowhere is as stealthy as the F22. The Su 57's RCS for eg is between 0.1 - 0.5 square meters depending on distance of detection. The Rafale's RCS ranges between 0.1-1 square meters. Sure as a stop gap, a few Su57's might do the trick for the next 4-5 years but beyond that, we'd be fools to think the Su57 is potent enough a platform and from everything that has happened in the last month and a half, Indian military and political leadership is far from fools. They are bloody good at their job, and have atleast surpassed my appreciation of India's military might and political will to yield that might.



IMHO, we NEED to fast track the Kaveri and AMCA programs as much as possible. The Kaveri isn't a complete failure. From my appreciation, the project can be massively fast-tracked if India signs MOUs to develop specific systems that we're unable to perfect for the engine with private companies, separately for all such components. For the AMCA Mk1 which will have considerable foreign tech, we should again look at specific fifth gen tech components that will take the longest to develop indigenously. We should compromise on the degree of indigenousness in the Mk1 and have atleast a couple of squadrons by 2035. If we can do that, then Mk2 can be a fully indigenous 5.5 gen platform. Also, India should consider joining the European 6th Gen program. Join, jointly develop the tech in design phase, and then leave the program before prototyping phase, like France did with the Eurofighter. Till the time the AMCA joins the IAF, India should focus on completely operationalizing the Ghatak UAV and CATS warrior program in the next 3-4 years. That is an asymmetric capability, especially in how the India-Pak conflict is escalating in the air domain.
 
Nicky said:
It's not, 6th gen focus will not be allowed about stealth.

J20 is a paper tiger with no proven capability and dubious stealth capabilities.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

'Mighty Dragon's hidden flaws: IAF Rafales outclass ‘overhyped’ PLA jets' | India News - Times of India

India News: The Chengdu J-20, also known as the "Mighty Dragon," a Chinese 5th-generation stealth fighter, has come under scrutiny for its stealth capabilities an.
timesofindia.indiatimes.com timesofindia.indiatimes.com

I never argued that J20 or J35 is not an issues. It's the whole reason I'm arguing for Su57 as a counter till the time AMCA comes online.

If Rafael allowed integration with our systems , I'd recommend to go for a few squadrons, but that's unlikely.

F35 is moronic with US restrictions and no integration with our systems. Going for G414 was idiotic too and we are seeing the delays.

Maintenance of F35 is a nightmare and will suck more funds. Besides, the US will never allow their use against Porkies.

As I have repeated several times, if we feel we can handle J20 or J35 without a 5th gen fighter jet of our own, go for it. If not, there is no viable option apart from Su57.
Click to expand...
Su-57 is just Russian deception. It's not a 5th gen aircraft. 5th gen aircrafts are VLO. Su-57 is just LO at best.

F-35 has an estimated radar cross section of 0.001 m². The Su-57 has an estimated radar cross section of 0.1 m². To put it into perspective, the Su-57 can be detected by X band radars or high resolution radars, at a distance 4.6 times that of the distance at which the F-35 can be detected. And that is not even considering the overwhelming advantage the F-35s have over the Su-57 in avionics including the radar.

Their offering to us is just an attempt to swindle us. We should not fall for it. We should fast track the AMCA and wait until then for a 5th gen aircraft. Meanwhile, we should strengthen our layered Air Defence systems and focus of drones, including manned, unmanned teaming systems.
 
Last edited:
Anantanaga said:
Su-57 is just Russian deception. It's not a 5th gen aircraft. 5th gen aircrafts are VLO. Su-57 is just LO at best. Their offering to us is just an attempt to swindle us. We should not fall for it.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but so is J20 a fake 5th gen.

As I have said, Rafales should be able to handle J20. The problem is integration with our own systems, which is critical.

If we can get Frenchies to agree, I'd say go for them and pour resources into AMCA.
 
Anantanaga said:
AWACS?
Click to expand...
Nope. Both are different. In laymen terms ISTARs are like mothership of AWACS. ISTAR can do ground, marine and aerial surveillance. Members can feel free to correct my mistakes.
 
JConline said:
All this noise about the J31........

How many times have we heard this bullshit before? Oh the Pakistanis are being armed with Western and Chinese equipment and India is under-prepared. All of you folks who are running around with their tails tucked between your legs fearing some stealth jet might lock onto it, how much of India's capabilities which were showcased in Op Sindoor were you aware of? You need to read more about Chinese military platforms, their testing and their pricing strategies to understand what a f***ing sham Chinese def equipment is. EVEN IF the Chinese jets are worth their weight in salt, Pakistan won't be getting any, atleast for the next 4-5 years. And btw, a 5th gen fighter is like a Bugatti Veyron. A million dollars to buy and then 150k for a freaking oil change. Even if Pakistan get the Bugatti for free, neither do they have the fuel to keep refilling every 12 mins, nor do they have the 150k for the oil change. This is all geopolitical fear mongering. The only reason China is making a big show of offering the J31 to Pakis is because Trump stirred up a media storm by claiming that India is gonna get the F35 and Pakistan needed an equivalent narrative. Simple as that. Time will prove this.


All this noise about F35 or Su57.......

How many times has the US stabbed India in the back? EVEN NOW in the present moment Trump is trying to backstab Modi. You think the Americans will allow us to fly the F35s in the event that Op Sindoor 2.0 needs to be carried out? Do you think they'll allow India to integrate the F35s in the IACCS or NC3I with all the other Russian equipment? Do you think they'll allow India to do future India specific upgrades like we did to the Sukhois and MiGs. A big fat NO. F35 in IAF inventory is as good as a paper plane on your office desk that you can do aerial patrolling in. Sure, it adds to deterrence but what about when this deterrence is tested?
Now let's look at Big Red. Is Russia a WAY more reliable partner than USA? ABSOLUTELY. But the Su57 is essentially not in the same class as the F35 or J31. It's a much larger jet, akin to the J20 or F22. But it nowhere is as stealthy as the F22. The Su 57's RCS for eg is between 0.1 - 0.5 square meters depending on distance of detection. The Rafale's RCS ranges between 0.1-1 square meters. Sure as a stop gap, a few Su57's might do the trick for the next 4-5 years but beyond that, we'd be fools to think the Su57 is potent enough a platform and from everything that has happened in the last month and a half, Indian military and political leadership is far from fools. They are bloody good at their job, and have atleast surpassed my appreciation of India's military might and political will to yield that might.



IMHO, we NEED to fast track the Kaveri and AMCA programs as much as possible. The Kaveri isn't a complete failure. From my appreciation, the project can be massively fast-tracked if India signs MOUs to develop specific systems that we're unable to perfect for the engine with private companies, separately for all such components. For the AMCA Mk1 which will have considerable foreign tech, we should again look at specific fifth gen tech components that will take the longest to develop indigenously. We should compromise on the degree of indigenousness in the Mk1 and have atleast a couple of squadrons by 2035. If we can do that, then Mk2 can be a fully indigenous 5.5 gen platform. Also, India should consider joining the European 6th Gen program. Join, jointly develop the tech in design phase, and then leave the program before prototyping phase, like France did with the Eurofighter. Till the time the AMCA joins the IAF, India should focus on completely operationalizing the Ghatak UAV and CATS warrior program in the next 3-4 years. That is an asymmetric capability, especially in how the India-Pak conflict is escalating in the air domain.
Click to expand...
Rafale rcs u are quoting is extreme bullshit ,maybe bare bones rafale without weapons and drop tanks.

With those ,it's rcs should be easily 3-5 metres square.

No comparison with su-57.That plane is made specifically to detect stealth ,has 3 x band radars and 2 L band ones.

We can negotiate the modern version with flat nozzles too...they already have a prototype flying ,we can negotiate AL-51 engines for future AMCA rather than relying on shitty 100-110 Kn class small engines on offer from France.
It's disadvantages can be negated to some extent with ram coating and engine radar blocker.
 
Nicky said:
Maybe, but so is J20 a fake 5th gen.

As I have said, Rafales should be able to handle J20. The problem is integration with our own systems, which is critical.

If we can get Frenchies to agree, I'd say go for them and pour resources into AMCA.
Click to expand...
Rafales have 0 chance against J-20 simply based on stealth.
The nose cone of rafale is also very small so not many T/R modules can be added affecting the overall power.Then there is issue of Ga arsenide aesa only in our rafales.

Chinese can't be underestimated.
 
India needs a proper INFO WAR ROOM....
we have almost perfect Army, Air , Naval Integrated Grid, and we are working in all the front to get it to the best of its preparation....
we need mature info war room which can not only counter the narrative but should be updated in real time scenario...
 
JConline said:
All this noise about the J31........

How many times have we heard this bullshit before? Oh the Pakistanis are being armed with Western and Chinese equipment and India is under-prepared. All of you folks who are running around with their tails tucked between your legs fearing some stealth jet might lock onto it, how much of India's capabilities which were showcased in Op Sindoor were you aware of? You need to read more about Chinese military platforms, their testing and their pricing strategies to understand what a f***ing sham Chinese def equipment is. EVEN IF the Chinese jets are worth their weight in salt, Pakistan won't be getting any, atleast for the next 4-5 years. And btw, a 5th gen fighter is like a Bugatti Veyron. A million dollars to buy and then 150k for a freaking oil change. Even if Pakistan get the Bugatti for free, neither do they have the fuel to keep refilling every 12 mins, nor do they have the 150k for the oil change. This is all geopolitical fear mongering. The only reason China is making a big show of offering the J31 to Pakis is because Trump stirred up a media storm by claiming that India is gonna get the F35 and Pakistan needed an equivalent narrative. Simple as that. Time will prove this.


All this noise about F35 or Su57.......

How many times has the US stabbed India in the back? EVEN NOW in the present moment Trump is trying to backstab Modi. You think the Americans will allow us to fly the F35s in the event that Op Sindoor 2.0 needs to be carried out? Do you think they'll allow India to integrate the F35s in the IACCS or NC3I with all the other Russian equipment? Do you think they'll allow India to do future India specific upgrades like we did to the Sukhois and MiGs. A big fat NO. F35 in IAF inventory is as good as a paper plane on your office desk that you can do aerial patrolling in. Sure, it adds to deterrence but what about when this deterrence is tested?
Now let's look at Big Red. Is Russia a WAY more reliable partner than USA? ABSOLUTELY. But the Su57 is essentially not in the same class as the F35 or J31. It's a much larger jet, akin to the J20 or F22. But it nowhere is as stealthy as the F22. The Su 57's RCS for eg is between 0.1 - 0.5 square meters depending on distance of detection. The Rafale's RCS ranges between 0.1-1 square meters. Sure as a stop gap, a few Su57's might do the trick for the next 4-5 years but beyond that, we'd be fools to think the Su57 is potent enough a platform and from everything that has happened in the last month and a half, Indian military and political leadership is far from fools. They are bloody good at their job, and have atleast surpassed my appreciation of India's military might and political will to yield that might.



IMHO, we NEED to fast track the Kaveri and AMCA programs as much as possible. The Kaveri isn't a complete failure. From my appreciation, the project can be massively fast-tracked if India signs MOUs to develop specific systems that we're unable to perfect for the engine with private companies, separately for all such components. For the AMCA Mk1 which will have considerable foreign tech, we should again look at specific fifth gen tech components that will take the longest to develop indigenously. We should compromise on the degree of indigenousness in the Mk1 and have atleast a couple of squadrons by 2035. If we can do that, then Mk2 can be a fully indigenous 5.5 gen platform. Also, India should consider joining the European 6th Gen program. Join, jointly develop the tech in design phase, and then leave the program before prototyping phase, like France did with the Eurofighter. Till the time the AMCA joins the IAF, India should focus on completely operationalizing the Ghatak UAV and CATS warrior program in the next 3-4 years. That is an asymmetric capability, especially in how the India-Pak conflict is escalating in the air domain.
Click to expand...
Any source for the RCS numbers for Rafale? I doubt those numbers.

The Su 57 is still stealthier than anything we can field. It also has a big advantage of having radars designed to detect stealth.
 
Noob_Saibot said:
Any source for the RCS numbers for Rafale? I doubt those numbers.

The Su 57 is still stealthier than anything we can field. It also has a big advantage of having radars designed to detect stealth.
Click to expand...

Rafale RCS source: https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsanda...023/04/08/rafale-radar-scattering-simulation/

Su57 RCS source: https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsanda...2022/09/26/su-57-radar-scattering-simulation/

Note that these RCS readings are from a point-blank range of the jet.

The radar on the Felon is truly impressive. Like I mentioned, India should focus on specific 5th gen components like the radar on the Felon rather than full jets with whatever sham ToT Russia wants to dump on us.
 
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