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I think CDS was simply referring to Pakistan's willingness to deescalate after India started hitting their nuclear facilities. If you look at it objectively, it is quite rational.
Operation Sindoor and Aftermath
- Thread starter haldilal
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That is exactly what I am thinking we should do. We will have our spy satellites up soon which will provide 24/7 coverage of Porkistan. Once we have the capability to detect all their fighter aircrafts where they are based, when they are operated, their logistics like Jet fuel supplies, their locations of air defense systems, then we need to go for a preemptive strike and take out their assets with overwhelming force within 1-2 hours max before they can even react.
I have been advocating preemptive strikes on Porkistan. I wanted one this winter. But now I think we should hold on and focus on reconnaissance and with 100% certainty we should be able to tell where their assets are parked. Once they receive their priced gadgets, with all the data we have gathered through reconnaissance, we need to train for this mission and hit them with precision like we did in operation sindoor.
Well, I think we have an option, we can hit them this winter once we stock up supplies for a month. Take out all their airbases along with air defense systems and aircrafts. Or wait for their priced gadgets to arrive and then strike. The former option will weaken and their planned acquisitions of few 5th generation planes won't make a difference as they have to build up lost assets which will take lot of time given their economic situation. The later might also work although we will be up against more air defense systems and more aircrafts.
exactly, They also explained the op Chaddi Banyan was for internal consumption and showbaazi.. as they haad no other option available from a Porkie POV...
.chinese arm pakis
.us armed pakis
. italian,french, german weapons are with pakis
. turkey armed pakis
.most of chini arms sale to paki is of Russian origin
.it was something that the pakis never expected that we will escalate the war for 4 days
.and that escalation was what got the pakis to de-escalate it seems
. So new ROEs are set it seems
.us armed pakis
. italian,french, german weapons are with pakis
. turkey armed pakis
.most of chini arms sale to paki is of Russian origin
.it was something that the pakis never expected that we will escalate the war for 4 days
.and that escalation was what got the pakis to de-escalate it seems
. So new ROEs are set it seems
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This sentence seems to be the fundamental problem with your description of the situation.....
Yes, stealth is such a ludicrous advantage that not having it is suicidal vs an opponent that does. It is the be all and end all in modern air combat.
Pakistan's problem, is that unlike china, it cannot have a fleet of 5th gen - Even their own analysis doesnt go beyond two squadrons, which would provide little to no resistance if Indian ground based missile systems are adequately developed to deny airfield operations.
Regarding the "parallel" drawn between J20 and Su57, it is completely wrong. Su57 stealth is just better than Rafale in clean configuration. OTOH, J20 is just slightly worse than F35. Is J-20 without issues? Not at all. But to pretend that it is not an issue for us is a Paki level delusion we should not fall to.
Like the ex ACM said, I think we should push for MUMT drones while expanding missile numbers, and wait till AMCA. For a while, the chinese will also not be able to wield all their 5th gen planes against us, they just dont have the numbers on their side for a realistic 24/7 CAP over sino Indian border. (shiv had a vid calculating this iirc). Till the time they develop that, we could sort out our stealth fighter.
But if you cant wait, or dont want risk, go for F35. IMO ideal scenario would be leasing 2-3 sqn F35s for 10-15 years, but IDTS thats an option, so buying is not irrational.
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Would need almost 24/7 surveillance of base assets. Not impossible (with ~48 sats you can get 15 minute updates of anything in the entirety of pakistan), but not cheap nor easy.
Looks like mostly porki accounts promoting their shitty youtube channels and their fake propaganda like that low iq quwa.
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View: https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1931713499593343164
Could be useful along LOC or the ceasefire line as Pakistani minister said Shimla agreement is over.
It's not, 6th gen focus will not be allowed about stealth.
J20 is a paper tiger with no proven capability and dubious stealth capabilities.
'Mighty Dragon's hidden flaws: IAF Rafales outclass ‘overhyped’ PLA jets' | India News - Times of India
India News: The Chengdu J-20, also known as the "Mighty Dragon," a Chinese 5th-generation stealth fighter, has come under scrutiny for its stealth capabilities an.
timesofindia.indiatimes.com
I never argued that J20 or J35 is not an issues. It's the whole reason I'm arguing for Su57 as a counter till the time AMCA comes online.
If Rafael allowed integration with our systems , I'd recommend to go for a few squadrons, but that's unlikely.
F35 is moronic with US restrictions and no integration with our systems. Going for G414 was idiotic too and we are seeing the delays.
Maintenance of F35 is a nightmare and will suck more funds. Besides, the US will never allow their use against Porkies.
As I have repeated several times, if we feel we can handle J20 or J35 without a 5th gen fighter jet of our own, go for it. If not, there is no viable option apart from Su57.
I get your point and agree to an extent.
The US was certainly taken aback by our offensive capability but what would have really hurt is our defensive capability that prevented any Porki attack from landing.
I don't believe we will see any new offers of significant defense sales to India from the US anytime soon. Not that we should even consider any of them.
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All this noise about the J31........
How many times have we heard this bullshit before? Oh the Pakistanis are being armed with Western and Chinese equipment and India is under-prepared. All of you folks who are running around with their tails tucked between your legs fearing some stealth jet might lock onto it, how much of India's capabilities which were showcased in Op Sindoor were you aware of? You need to read more about Chinese military platforms, their testing and their pricing strategies to understand what a f***ing sham Chinese def equipment is. EVEN IF the Chinese jets are worth their weight in salt, Pakistan won't be getting any, atleast for the next 4-5 years. And btw, a 5th gen fighter is like a Bugatti Veyron. A million dollars to buy and then 150k for a freaking oil change. Even if Pakistan get the Bugatti for free, neither do they have the fuel to keep refilling every 12 mins, nor do they have the 150k for the oil change. This is all geopolitical fear mongering. The only reason China is making a big show of offering the J31 to Pakis is because Trump stirred up a media storm by claiming that India is gonna get the F35 and Pakistan needed an equivalent narrative. Simple as that. Time will prove this.
All this noise about F35 or Su57.......
How many times has the US stabbed India in the back? EVEN NOW in the present moment Trump is trying to backstab Modi. You think the Americans will allow us to fly the F35s in the event that Op Sindoor 2.0 needs to be carried out? Do you think they'll allow India to integrate the F35s in the IACCS or NC3I with all the other Russian equipment? Do you think they'll allow India to do future India specific upgrades like we did to the Sukhois and MiGs. A big fat NO. F35 in IAF inventory is as good as a paper plane on your office desk that you can do aerial patrolling in. Sure, it adds to deterrence but what about when this deterrence is tested?
Now let's look at Big Red. Is Russia a WAY more reliable partner than USA? ABSOLUTELY. But the Su57 is essentially not in the same class as the F35 or J31. It's a much larger jet, akin to the J20 or F22. But it nowhere is as stealthy as the F22. The Su 57's RCS for eg is between 0.1 - 0.5 square meters depending on distance of detection. The Rafale's RCS ranges between 0.1-1 square meters. Sure as a stop gap, a few Su57's might do the trick for the next 4-5 years but beyond that, we'd be fools to think the Su57 is potent enough a platform and from everything that has happened in the last month and a half, Indian military and political leadership is far from fools. They are bloody good at their job, and have atleast surpassed my appreciation of India's military might and political will to yield that might.
IMHO, we NEED to fast track the Kaveri and AMCA programs as much as possible. The Kaveri isn't a complete failure. From my appreciation, the project can be massively fast-tracked if India signs MOUs to develop specific systems that we're unable to perfect for the engine with private companies, separately for all such components. For the AMCA Mk1 which will have considerable foreign tech, we should again look at specific fifth gen tech components that will take the longest to develop indigenously. We should compromise on the degree of indigenousness in the Mk1 and have atleast a couple of squadrons by 2035. If we can do that, then Mk2 can be a fully indigenous 5.5 gen platform. Also, India should consider joining the European 6th Gen program. Join, jointly develop the tech in design phase, and then leave the program before prototyping phase, like France did with the Eurofighter. Till the time the AMCA joins the IAF, India should focus on completely operationalizing the Ghatak UAV and CATS warrior program in the next 3-4 years. That is an asymmetric capability, especially in how the India-Pak conflict is escalating in the air domain.
How many times have we heard this bullshit before? Oh the Pakistanis are being armed with Western and Chinese equipment and India is under-prepared. All of you folks who are running around with their tails tucked between your legs fearing some stealth jet might lock onto it, how much of India's capabilities which were showcased in Op Sindoor were you aware of? You need to read more about Chinese military platforms, their testing and their pricing strategies to understand what a f***ing sham Chinese def equipment is. EVEN IF the Chinese jets are worth their weight in salt, Pakistan won't be getting any, atleast for the next 4-5 years. And btw, a 5th gen fighter is like a Bugatti Veyron. A million dollars to buy and then 150k for a freaking oil change. Even if Pakistan get the Bugatti for free, neither do they have the fuel to keep refilling every 12 mins, nor do they have the 150k for the oil change. This is all geopolitical fear mongering. The only reason China is making a big show of offering the J31 to Pakis is because Trump stirred up a media storm by claiming that India is gonna get the F35 and Pakistan needed an equivalent narrative. Simple as that. Time will prove this.
All this noise about F35 or Su57.......
How many times has the US stabbed India in the back? EVEN NOW in the present moment Trump is trying to backstab Modi. You think the Americans will allow us to fly the F35s in the event that Op Sindoor 2.0 needs to be carried out? Do you think they'll allow India to integrate the F35s in the IACCS or NC3I with all the other Russian equipment? Do you think they'll allow India to do future India specific upgrades like we did to the Sukhois and MiGs. A big fat NO. F35 in IAF inventory is as good as a paper plane on your office desk that you can do aerial patrolling in. Sure, it adds to deterrence but what about when this deterrence is tested?
Now let's look at Big Red. Is Russia a WAY more reliable partner than USA? ABSOLUTELY. But the Su57 is essentially not in the same class as the F35 or J31. It's a much larger jet, akin to the J20 or F22. But it nowhere is as stealthy as the F22. The Su 57's RCS for eg is between 0.1 - 0.5 square meters depending on distance of detection. The Rafale's RCS ranges between 0.1-1 square meters. Sure as a stop gap, a few Su57's might do the trick for the next 4-5 years but beyond that, we'd be fools to think the Su57 is potent enough a platform and from everything that has happened in the last month and a half, Indian military and political leadership is far from fools. They are bloody good at their job, and have atleast surpassed my appreciation of India's military might and political will to yield that might.
IMHO, we NEED to fast track the Kaveri and AMCA programs as much as possible. The Kaveri isn't a complete failure. From my appreciation, the project can be massively fast-tracked if India signs MOUs to develop specific systems that we're unable to perfect for the engine with private companies, separately for all such components. For the AMCA Mk1 which will have considerable foreign tech, we should again look at specific fifth gen tech components that will take the longest to develop indigenously. We should compromise on the degree of indigenousness in the Mk1 and have atleast a couple of squadrons by 2035. If we can do that, then Mk2 can be a fully indigenous 5.5 gen platform. Also, India should consider joining the European 6th Gen program. Join, jointly develop the tech in design phase, and then leave the program before prototyping phase, like France did with the Eurofighter. Till the time the AMCA joins the IAF, India should focus on completely operationalizing the Ghatak UAV and CATS warrior program in the next 3-4 years. That is an asymmetric capability, especially in how the India-Pak conflict is escalating in the air domain.
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Su-57 is just Russian deception. It's not a 5th gen aircraft. 5th gen aircrafts are VLO. Su-57 is just LO at best.It's not, 6th gen focus will not be allowed about stealth.
J20 is a paper tiger with no proven capability and dubious stealth capabilities.
'Mighty Dragon's hidden flaws: IAF Rafales outclass ‘overhyped’ PLA jets' | India News - Times of India
India News: The Chengdu J-20, also known as the "Mighty Dragon," a Chinese 5th-generation stealth fighter, has come under scrutiny for its stealth capabilities an.
I never argued that J20 or J35 is not an issues. It's the whole reason I'm arguing for Su57 as a counter till the time AMCA comes online.
If Rafael allowed integration with our systems , I'd recommend to go for a few squadrons, but that's unlikely.
F35 is moronic with US restrictions and no integration with our systems. Going for G414 was idiotic too and we are seeing the delays.
Maintenance of F35 is a nightmare and will suck more funds. Besides, the US will never allow their use against Porkies.
As I have repeated several times, if we feel we can handle J20 or J35 without a 5th gen fighter jet of our own, go for it. If not, there is no viable option apart from Su57.
F-35 has an estimated radar cross section of 0.001 m². The Su-57 has an estimated radar cross section of 0.1 m². To put it into perspective, the Su-57 can be detected by X band radars or high resolution radars, at a distance 4.6 times that of the distance at which the F-35 can be detected. And that is not even considering the overwhelming advantage the F-35s have over the Su-57 in avionics including the radar.
Their offering to us is just an attempt to swindle us. We should not fall for it. We should fast track the AMCA and wait until then for a 5th gen aircraft. Meanwhile, we should strengthen our layered Air Defence systems and focus of drones, including manned, unmanned teaming systems.
Last edited:
Deepak Vohra, Senior-most ex- Diplomat, served as Ambassador to Armenia and then Poland.
View: https://x.com/mumbaichadon/status/1931752903431041327?s=46&t=s5Zjz3wgeVF4a5zNfD4EYA
View: https://x.com/mumbaichadon/status/1931752903431041327?s=46&t=s5Zjz3wgeVF4a5zNfD4EYA
Maybe, but so is J20 a fake 5th gen.
As I have said, Rafales should be able to handle J20. The problem is integration with our own systems, which is critical.
If we can get Frenchies to agree, I'd say go for them and pour resources into AMCA.
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Nope. Both are different. In laymen terms ISTARs are like mothership of AWACS. ISTAR can do ground, marine and aerial surveillance. Members can feel free to correct my mistakes.
Egypt's Air Force flew a cargo aircraft with unspecified cargo, possibly Boron, into Pakistan the day after the ceasefire was announce. Here is the chronology:
View: https://x.com/anshumatvakra/status/1921644143865917495?s=46&t=s5Zjz3wgeVF4a5zNfD4EYA
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