Pahalgam Islamic Terror Attack

Do you think a Military response going to happen?.

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everyone who wants an immediate confrontation, i suggest they read this diary of this one certain chap named Julius Caesar.
Most would call him one of the greatest generals in history and the seige of Alesia was such a brilliant double seige that it is STILL studied in military academies today.

Well, the nickname of Caesar amongst his detractors was that of a 'roman she-male, who soils roman dignity'.
Because Julius Caesar was FAMOUSLY NOTORIOUS for refusing to give battle unless situation was PERFECTO.
Battle of Gergovia ? Casear was winning and it started to rain. Remember, Romans are not archers or cavalry force. But Caesar thought the ground too muddy to maintain formation- so he fucked off.
Battle of Agendicum ?(I think) Caesar literally took the field 3 consecutive days, and 3 consecutive days it wasnt CLEAR sunlight ( it was cloudy) - Caesar went 'nah bro, it doesnt look good, lets fuck off'.

Make of it what you will - one of the greatest generals in history, literally made fun of and called a hijra by his own damn senate, coz Ceasar was always about 'i want least casualties on my side, so everything has to be tip top - the legion didnt piss in the morning ? awww man !!!! no battle today!' .
 
Azaad said:
To make matters worse , 56" has gone in for rationalization of the army by slashing numbers & going in for the Agniveer program - an ill advised move especially since none of the 2.5 fronts have been resolved. Infact to make matter worse we've now 3.5 or 4.5 fronts in the shape of a BD & Myanmar.
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This is not the first time they have experimented with such an endeavour. In late 90's when ACM Krishnaswamy was the chief of Air Staff, at that time government was eager to slash the manpower to save defense budget. Air Marshals who wanted to come into the good book's of rulers came up with an idea i.e. slashing manpower of IAF by reducing recruitment and giving the opportunity of voluntary retirement to Airmen. IAF man power reduced to 1,20,000 from 1,70,000 in early 90's . It caused the shortage of skilled manpower like Sergeant and SNCO's. Later on they realised their folly and in mid 2000's started increasing the manpower again, which caused a situation where unskilled Airmen were in large numbers in every unit and there were few Sergeant and SNCO's to provide them on Job training.
 
tarunraju said:
Let me set some expectations right in this thread.

You are not going to beat Pakistan with economic warfare.
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I agree. Quite a few members in here are saying that Pakistan should be brought down via non-Military options like IWT, economic and trade blockade etc. which will bring Pakistan to its knees "without firing a single bullet." They also say have the TTP/Baloch attack PA, which will further bleed and emasculate the Pakistani Army. But these are just half-measures and as you have rightly said, economic measures will not result in scenario that we have envisaged as punitive for Pakistan. Pakistan will get help from other nations to stave off the crisis.

BLA/TTP may be carrying out attacks with impunity on the Pakistani army but let us be straight-forward here, they will not just be the ones who will bleed their own blood for India. They will sooner realize that India is using them to settle their own personal score with Pakistan without endangering their own lives.

I am of the opinion that while IWT and economic and trade embargo serve their purpose in "economic/resource" warfare. If we could defeat Pakistan through mere economic warfare, why not disband the Indian army and just keep a police force like CRPF/BSF/ITBP? The Indian army has been fighting counter-insurgency in J&K and north-east for several decades now with no end in sight. The Indian army needs a war to determine where does it stand in today's battlefield and where does it comes short with their adversary. Keep in mind it is not just military hardware that I am talking about but also the mindset and battle preparedness of the military leadership. The IA soldiers, on the ground, are not lacking in skills, courage and bravery but what can be said about the higher ups?

USSR's war with Finland in 1939, gave them valuable lessons on the conduction of warfare in winters, in sub-zero temperatures and snow, which helped them during the WWII and they also went in for an organization-wide re-structuring of the Red Army, which was still going on until the eve of Operation Barbarossa.

India hasn't had a conventional battle or war with adversaries since Kargil (1999) and that war embarrassingly exposed the incompetence and ineptness that had creeped into the organization.

The other thing is, as some people have suggested here, that Modi will keep the hostilities beneath the threshold of escalation and call it a day because it would be enough theatrics for his voter base. I think, any limited strike against Pakistan, now that they have mobilized their troops along the border will definitely lead to escalation. Pakistani Army will not take any such conflagrations it lying down and regardless whatever they think will be the outcome, they will attack. So Modi has no choice but to go ahead with the aim of limited war that has the potential to flare up into a full blown war.

So yes, while economic and other non-Military warfare is important but they can help only to an extent with which the conventional military war becomes more easier to conduct.
 
ChandraSingh said:
I agree. Quite a few members in here are saying that Pakistan should be brought down via non-Military options like IWT, economic and trade blockade etc. which will bring Pakistan to its knees "without firing a single bullet." They also say have the TTP/Baloch attack PA, which will further bleed and emasculate the Pakistani Army. But these are just half-measures and as you have rightly said, economic measures will not result in scenario that we have envisaged as punitive for Pakistan. Pakistan will get help from other nations to stave off the crisis.

BLA/TTP may be carrying out attacks with impunity on the Pakistani army but let us be straight-forward here, they will not just be the ones who will bleed their own blood for India. They will sooner realize that India is using them to settle their own personal score with Pakistan without endangering their own lives.

I am of the opinion that while IWT and economic and trade embargo serve their purpose in "economic/resource" warfare. If we could defeat Pakistan through mere economic warfare, why not disband the Indian army and just keep a police force like CRPF/BSF/ITBP? The Indian army has been fighting counter-insurgency in J&K and north-east for several decades now with no end in sight. The Indian army needs a war to determine where does it stand in today's battlefield and where does it comes short with their adversary. Keep in mind it is not just military hardware that I am talking about but also the mindset and battle preparedness of the military leadership. The IA soldiers, on the ground, are not lacking in skills, courage and bravery but what can be said about the higher ups?

USSR's war with Finland in 1939, gave them valuable lessons on the conduction of warfare in winters, in sub-zero temperatures and snow, which helped them during the WWII and they also went in for an organization-wide re-structuring of the Red Army, which was still going on until the eve of Operation Barbarossa.

India hasn't had a conventional battle or war with adversaries since Kargil (1999) and that war embarrassingly exposed the incompetence and ineptness that had creeped into the organization.

The other thing is, as some people have suggested here, that Modi will keep the hostilities beneath the threshold of escalation and call it a day because it would be enough theatrics for his voter base. I think, any limited strike against Pakistan, now that they have mobilized their troops along the border will definitely lead to escalation. Pakistani Army will not take any such conflagrations it lying down and regardless whatever they think will be the outcome, they will attack. So Modi has no choice but to go ahead with the aim of limited war that has the potential to flare up into a full blown war.

So yes, while economic and other non-Military warfare is important but they can help only to an extent with which the conventional military war becomes more easier to conduct.
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I dont see anyone saying that here. What people are saying, is if you are SERIOUS about a definitive response and not just a 'thappar ka badlaa thappar- bomb one of 3 million terrorist camps in pakistan and come home', you HAVE TO DO the bolded part before you attack, to weaken the logistical capacity of your enemy, just like we did for six months straight in 1971.
 
tarunraju said:
Let me set some expectations right in this thread.

You are not going to beat Pakistan with economic warfare. Pakis run on credit lines, and any economic damage you inflict will be part of their next bheek application to Beijing or Washington, which will be promptly granted. You are not trying to wage economic war against the paki exchequer but the chicom/wignat exchequer--it's like pissing against the wind.

An erratic water supply means failed crops, which could cause some domestic political upheaval, because bheek will import food from the world food markets (there's plenty of food in the world); but the paki feudal farmer will have lighter wallets. Pakis have a very similar feudal farming system to the arthiyas of Indian Punjab. The trickle down of that bheek to peasants under each feudal farmer will be much less.

Pakistan stopped being a conventional adversary as of 1971, it is fighting textbook Islamic war. Losses are not measured in lives but territory. Pakis could attempt to encroach India, get pushed back, but as long as they're pushed back to the status quo (LC/WB/IB, whatever), the attempt is never written as a defeat in their books, no matter how many lives were lost.

The only real damage you can cause to pakis is loss of territory. Loss of territory, especially in a war they started, would have a devastating impact on the hukumat. When pakis lost territory in 1971, it was a bloodbath in West Pakistan for almost the entire decade of the 1970s--jernails and feudal families, everyone lost lives (Zia, Zulfikar Bhutto, you name it).

Any Indian response to a conflict pakis started should aim to grab territory, however small that might be, even if it means smoothing out bulges along the LC. Those dumbasses practically handed this option to us by walking away from Simla Agreement. Even telling pakis "hey look, these are the peaks and bulges we grabbed," would devastate their morale, no amount of retorting with losses of life on the Indian side will hide their cope. Establishing loss of territory as a new normal for paki gandmasti would have a deterrent effect like no other.

For there to be any meaningful peace in Kashmir, both pakis the local kashmiris need to be told that India has complete area domination, and all of their acts will be invoiced--payable in territory.

All that said, I have no clue what India is planning. Paki mobilisation is aimed to create a Parakram-like stalemate, which means at some level they realise India is going to tug at the LC and IB.

There are two factors that pakis are overplaying, exactly because they are overrated:
1. Nukes
2. Chicoms

Nukes--pakis are not going to nuke us over any ingress we make into PoK. No elaboration needed. Even the looniest mulla holding the nuclear trigger knows that starting a nuclear exchange over Kashmir only causes them to haemorrhage territory.

Chicom intervention--they will not start a hot war on paki's behalf, they will try to build-up and try to stimulate a mirror mobilisation on the Indian side that stretches Indian force thin on two fronts, but this will not result in a hot war. Chicoms swapped out at least 3 known theater commanders and had to bring in central theater command troops during Galwan. They do not dominate anything in that front.
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You captured excellent points. The colonist punjabi army doesn't care about anything except the territory it holds. It currently holds enough territory to replenish itself and maintain heavy power imbalance in its favor against some insurgent groups in the same territory. It need a subject population to replenish its manpower too. No one expects chinese to go kinetic to protect pig farmer. It will go kinetic only when it senses the vulnerability. It however will be more than happy to bankroll the pig farmer. This line of credit will also be limited. Its not going to be very deep. I don't think west has any more use to extensively bankroll the pakistanis.


You are very aptly summarized both the internal dynamics and external dynamics of the porkis. Thats why we need to engage in a pro longed low decibel kinetic action with the punjabi army. Our idea is to give enough operational room to insurgent and disgruntled power seekers to entrench themselves. Our objective should be to capture some strategic heights but not invade deeper into pig farm. A deeper invasion will change the dynamics of the war in that region. It will turn into a war for ummah. But a shallow invasion just enough to limit the kinetic response inside pakistani territory will not alter that dynamic and other power centres who are competing with punjabi army will see it as an oppurtunity to firm their hold at the cost of punjabi army. We just need to put enough pressure that the balance of power which is highly favorable to punjabi army slightly becomes favorable to its power competitiors.

This is exactly going to be our response. Balochs for the first time have captured a city. Let them capture a few more. Let us loosen the hold of punjabi colonist empire over its territory. Only when we critically dwindle their power hold will they splinter.
 
shade2 said:
Most are worried that will the Pakis be served this dish if at all.

And no, appetizers delivered by TTP and Balochi doesn't count.

I would prefer the dish best served cold retaliation

For now they are all fired up and doing exercises, eventually out of kangali or "kuch nhi hoga" they will get complacent.

Then, hopefully during night your plan is implemented of hitting PN and PAF assets
I want in addition their karachi port and any oil storage facilities to also be hit
Then we call a unilateral Cease Fire after fighting any Swift Retreats they may manage.
See if they're willing to de-escalate or not
This should be a punitive strike with small land-grabs of daggers and bulges across the LoC and IB

Shame and humiliation of the Fauji Foundation is the primarily goal, destruction of their assets is secondary.


There are no consequences for inaction so this would be purely on Leaderji's pleasure if he wishes to do so.
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There should be small land grab ! Keep LOC HOT every month alternately ! Irrespective of settlement of the current issue! I know it is very difficult to deal with those who do not have any moral or rules. Secondly , PAK Army has nothing to worry about.
If economy falls , and even people has nothing to eat , they still will not worry(PA) . In name of Islam and Jihad , they can starve or burn their people. We do not have that physic , forget about that , even fighting PAK people citizenship mylords do not Support GOI and IA. I have started thinking that unless we set our house in order (0.5 Front) , we can not tackle PAK.
Secondly , To deal with PA , we need out of box thinking since 1989 , we are following same pattern. There must be some strategy to keep PAK under check . may be IWT can be good one but not on immediate basis. But this is one option only. There should be a combination of options like this.
I am also concerned about the handling of neighbors , Nepal , Bhutan , Shrilanka and Bangla ect.
Of course every thing dose not come in front , but Shrilanka and Maldives seems to have been tapperd down . But all the Islamic countries will come together in future in event of conflict with India , our policy makers must keep this fact in mind . Even KSA and UAE can not trusted for this.
What PAK want is situation like Isreal and Palestine to drag India down , and that's what US/China also want.
 
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ChandraSingh said:
I agree. Quite a few members in here are saying that Pakistan should be brought down via non-Military options like IWT, economic and trade blockade etc. which will bring Pakistan to its knees "without firing a single bullet." They also say have the TTP/Baloch attack PA, which will further bleed and emasculate the Pakistani Army. But these are just half-measures and as you have rightly said, economic measures will not result in scenario that we have envisaged as punitive for Pakistan. Pakistan will get help from other nations to stave off the crisis.

BLA/TTP may be carrying out attacks with impunity on the Pakistani army but let us be straight-forward here, they will not just be the ones who will bleed their own blood for India. They will sooner realize that India is using them to settle their own personal score with Pakistan without endangering their own lives.

I am of the opinion that while IWT and economic and trade embargo serve their purpose in "economic/resource" warfare. If we could defeat Pakistan through mere economic warfare, why not disband the Indian army and just keep a police force like CRPF/BSF/ITBP? The Indian army has been fighting counter-insurgency in J&K and north-east for several decades now with no end in sight. The Indian army needs a war to determine where does it stand in today's battlefield and where does it comes short with their adversary. Keep in mind it is not just military hardware that I am talking about but also the mindset and battle preparedness of the military leadership. The IA soldiers, on the ground, are not lacking in skills, courage and bravery but what can be said about the higher ups?

USSR's war with Finland in 1939, gave them valuable lessons on the conduction of warfare in winters, in sub-zero temperatures and snow, which helped them during the WWII and they also went in for an organization-wide re-structuring of the Red Army, which was still going on until the eve of Operation Barbarossa.

India hasn't had a conventional battle or war with adversaries since Kargil (1999) and that war embarrassingly exposed the incompetence and ineptness that had creeped into the organization.

The other thing is, as some people have suggested here, that Modi will keep the hostilities beneath the threshold of escalation and call it a day because it would be enough theatrics for his voter base. I think, any limited strike against Pakistan, now that they have mobilized their troops along the border will definitely lead to escalation. Pakistani Army will not take any such conflagrations it lying down and regardless whatever they think will be the outcome, they will attack. So Modi has no choice but to go ahead with the aim of limited war that has the potential to flare up into a full blown war.

So yes, while economic and other non-Military warfare is important but they can help only to an extent with which the conventional military war becomes more easier to conduct.
Click to expand...
Totally agree.
But according to armchair Major Generals, Pakistan has "gamed" all military scenarios and will give such a fierce retaliation to India, that all will be at a loss! Such genius and fearsome Pakistanis are supposed to be, on military front.
However, same experts say, that Pakistan have not gamed the 5D chess "Economic and Water warfare", they have no way on this earth to beg for more money and arms, and hence India will prevail.

I have been around long enough to recognise the same noises which came from armchair major generals when the chips are down. Same noises were raised after 26-11. Same ploy now. Only difference, we see the opposite end of the political spectrum making such noises.
 
GaudaNaresh said:
everyone who wants an immediate confrontation, i suggest they read this diary of this one certain chap named Julius Caesar.
Most would call him one of the greatest generals in history and the seige of Alesia was such a brilliant double seige that it is STILL studied in military academies today.

Well, the nickname of Caesar amongst his detractors was that of a 'roman she-male, who soils roman dignity'.
Because Julius Caesar was FAMOUSLY NOTORIOUS for refusing to give battle unless situation was PERFECTO.
Battle of Gergovia ? Casear was winning and it started to rain. Remember, Romans are not archers or cavalry force. But Caesar thought the ground too muddy to maintain formation- so he fucked off.
Battle of Agendicum ?(I think) Caesar literally took the field 3 consecutive days, and 3 consecutive days it wasnt CLEAR sunlight ( it was cloudy) - Caesar went 'nah bro, it doesnt look good, lets fuck off'.

Make of it what you will - one of the greatest generals in history, literally made fun of and called a hijra by his own damn senate, coz Ceasar was always about 'i want least casualties on my side, so everything has to be tip top - the legion didnt piss in the morning ? awww man !!!! no battle today!' .
Click to expand...
Exactly wars are not brawl. They are a full commitment and in current Indian scenario it requires the same from us. I will be pissed if we go half prepared. I am happy for the forces to take the time to fully sort out their logistics, get their troops in groove and plan for even the worst outcome. We are a greater power and we should leverage our strength.
 
spikey360 said:
Totally agree.
But according to armchair Major Generals, Pakistan has "gamed" all military scenarios and will give such a fierce retaliation to India, that all will be at a loss! Such genius and fearsome Pakistanis are supposed to be, on military front.
However, same experts say, that Pakistan have not gamed the 5D chess "Economic and Water warfare", they have no way on this earth to beg for more money and arms, and hence India will prevail.

I have been around long enough to recognise the same noises which came from armchair major generals when the chips are down. Same noises were raised after 26-11. Same ploy now. Only difference, we see the opposite end of the political spectrum making such noises.
Click to expand...
You need to calm down. Keyboard bravado be damned. You think war is a video game. Its not.
 
The Shrike said:
BTW did that guy who would post ~ "disengagement ho gaya kya?" every day - did he join DFB? He's services will be much needed here.
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:) yea remmeber him , forgot his name , ukle.... something ?

fire starter said:

View: https://x.com/aravind/status/1919236284792357316?t=nEkVdTeNOCPqQh4rhZk1SQ&s=19
Click to expand...


China didn't expect it. And had to back off in shame, for a so-called "superpower", as its economy weakened and the standoff hurt its other geopolitical ambitions.

usual exaggeration from this guy , PLA took 1 small step back - credit to army and govt for that . but still there in large numbers right at LAC , new permanent fortifications for artys/tanks .

Chinese wont give a fuck even if bomb pak hq , but if military action escalates to war , PLA movement will be something to watch for.
 
Yuyutsu said:
This thread is finally cooling down, so is the hope of common people. nothing will happen this time it seems. full scale war is not an option , some senior members quoted, strategic placing of assassins in enemy country like sleeper cells was the only way through at times like these. but we are not brave and smart like israelis. they silently destroyed every senior , local member, without taking the fight to lebanon or syria or any other middle east country.
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NO ! The longer it takes , the better results it will give. I am hopeful for anything from now till next 6-7 months. :D:D
 
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