MRCBF: Dassault Rafale M for Indian Navy

[Azaad]

View: https://youtu.be/5VugqNXP840?si=XllDPT5R3KKFrads

Interesting panel & discussions on the procurement of the Rafale M due for signing possibly by the end of this financial year which if undertaken will see first induction as early as 2028. Hopefully the IN gets the full complement by 2030.

 

[BON PLAN]

View: https://youtu.be/5VugqNXP840?si=XllDPT5R3KKFrads

Interesting panel & discussions on the procurement of the Rafale M due for signing possibly by the end of this financial year which if undertaken will see first induction as early as 2028. Hopefully the IN gets the full complement by 2030.

Some B models (or all 4), for boosting the crew training, can probably be delivered early.

 

[Azaad]

India bargaining hard for better deal with France for Rs 50,000 crore-plus Rafale Marine jets contract

India and France are negotiating over Rs 50,000 crore for Rafale Marine jets including Astra missiles and enhancements. The jets, to be based at INS Dega, Vishakhapatnam, will operate from INS Vikrant and INS Vikramaditya. The 10-12 day negotiation, involving the Directorate General of Armament...

m.economictimes.com

 

[BON PLAN]

India bargaining hard for better deal with France for Rs 50,000 crore-plus Rafale Marine jets contract

India and France are negotiating over Rs 50,000 crore for Rafale Marine jets including Astra missiles and enhancements. The jets, to be based at INS Dega, Vishakhapatnam, will operate from INS Vikrant and INS Vikramaditya. The 10-12 day negotiation, involving the Directorate General of Armament...

m.economictimes.com

Bargaining is in the indian blood

 

[Fatalis]

View: https://x.com/ANI/status/1916777887396421725

 

[BON PLAN]

View: https://x.com/ANI/status/1916777887396421725

It is important to add that this price is not only for the 22 M + 4 B birds, but also to add some support of the 36 of IAF, and the weapons for this 26 and some more for IAF.
I don't have the details.

 

[shade2]

Y'all nibbiars know the chronology for this? AoN issuing date, RFP issuing date?
I know last year trials were completed between F18 and Rafale and the latter was chosen

 

[obiwankenobi]

How much payload can a Rafale take off with on a ski jump?

What India needs to do is convert INS Vikrant and its follow-on to CATOBAR. 100% can be done, especially with EMALS, and the work can classify as literally just a refit. Similar option was proposed for HMS Prince of Wales but later turned down because of cost (UK shipbuilding is tooooooo expensive).

There is already enough power onboard with LM2500 turbines delivering a total of 320 MW. An EMALS launch only requires about a 100MW, that too for just the 2-3 seconds when it actually launches the bird. You can even have a large power reserve in super capacitors or many other solutions.

Then you can have higher sortie rates, Rafales taking off with full payload, ability to operate F35C in the future, and even AWACS operating off the deck.

 

[shade2]

Production facility for Rafale Fuselage to be setup in India as a part of Rafale-M Order

This is true, It's mentioned in the PIB Release also

Inter-Governmental Agreement inked with France for 26 Rafale-Marine aircraft for Indian Navy

The Governments of India and France have signed an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for the procur

pib.gov.in

In line with the Government's thrust on Aatmanirbhar Bharat, the agreement includes Transfer of Technology for integration of indigenous weapons in India. It also includes setting up of production facility for Rafale Fuselage as well as Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul facilities for aircraft engine, sensors and weapons in India. The deal is expected to generate thousands of jobs and revenue for a large number of MSMEs in setting up, production and running of these facilities.

 

[FalconSlayers]

It is important to add that this price is not only for the 22 M + 4 B birds, but also to add some support of the 36 of IAF, and the weapons for this 26 and some more for IAF.
I don't have the details.

Y'all nibbiars know the chronology for this? AoN issuing date, RFP issuing date?
I know last year trials were completed between F18 and Rafale and the latter was chosen

Looks like deal is bigger than anticipated, and it seems 114 additional Rafales are confirmed for IAF (anyways were).

In line with the Government's thrust on Aatmanirbhar Bharat, the agreement includes Transfer of Technology for integration of indigenous weapons in India. It also includes setting up of production facility for Rafale Fuselage as well as Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul facilities for aircraft engine, sensors and weapons in India. The deal is expected to generate thousands of jobs and revenue for a large number of MSMEs in setting up, production and running of these facilities.

Standardising Rafales make obvious sense. Navy went for MiG-29K as it was a common platform with Indian Airforce's MiG-29 Baaz.

 

[shade2]

Looks like deal is bigger than anticipated, and it seems 114 additional Rafales are confirmed for IAF (anyways were).



Standardising Rafales make obvious sense. Navy went for MiG-29K as it was a common platform with Indian Airforce's MiG-29 Baaz.

Not sure about 114 but another bunch of reports say 40 will be purchased in G2G form for IAF, It's well within chindi Govt's budget without breaking the bank.

I believe the MRFA carrot needs to be dangled to get the other vendor nations to behave themselves, especially Dolund's America
Just dangled, cancel it after 10 years

 

[FalconSlayers]

Not sure about 114 but another bunch of reports say 40 will be purchased in G2G form for IAF, It's well within chindi Govt's budget without breaking the bank.

I believe the MRFA carrot needs to be dangled to get the other vendor nations to behave themselves, especially Dolund's America
Just dangled, cancel it after 10 years

114 or 40, more Rafales are coming and they should asap. MRFA is a sham and every vendor knows India will only buy either French or Russian aircraft if at all it has to buy them.

 

[obiwankenobi]

[2025] India buys 26 Rafale M for $7.4 billion (63,000 Cr, USDINR of 85) (with planes, weapons, equipment, spares yadda yadda).
Unknown: It includes some maintenance for the existing 36 Rafales bought in 2016. This can't be much since most of the sustainment and support costs were already baked into the 2016 deal.
$280m/bird (subtract 10-20% for the support component of the other 36 bird if you want, but then add that to the previous deal)

[2016] India buys 36 Rafale C for $8.6 billion (59,000 Cr, USDINR of 68, inflation indexed cost of $15.73 billion) (with planes, weapons, equipment, spares yadda yadda).
$435m/bird (inflation indexed)

[2020] Japan buys 147 F35 for $23.1 billion ($32.39 billion applying 7% inflation from 2020 to 2025) (with planes, weapons including JASSM, AIM-9X, equipment, spares, support yadda yadda, probably more yadda yadda than our Rafale deal)
$220m/bird (inflation indexed)

Interesting comparison of G2G deals with similar scope i.e. including sustainment, spares, training, weapons, support etc. over at least a 10 year period.

 

[sameer]

[2025] India buys 26 Rafale M for $7.4 billion (63,000 Cr, USDINR of 85) (with planes, weapons, equipment, spares yadda yadda).
Unknown: It includes some maintenance for the existing 36 Rafales bought in 2016. This can't be much since most of the sustainment and support costs were already baked into the 2016 deal.
$280m/bird (subtract 10-20% for the support component of the other 36 bird if you want, but then add that to the previous deal)

[2016] India buys 36 Rafale C for $8.6 billion (59,000 Cr, USDINR of 68, inflation indexed cost of $15.73 billion) (with planes, weapons, equipment, spares yadda yadda).
$435m/bird (inflation indexed)

[2020] Japan buys 147 F35 for $23.1 billion ($32.39 billion applying 7% inflation from 2020 to 2025) (with planes, weapons including JASSM, AIM-9X, equipment, spares, support yadda yadda, probably more yadda yadda than our Rafale deal)
$220m/bird (inflation indexed)

Interesting comparison of G2G deals with similar scope i.e. including sustainment, spares, training, weapons, support etc. over at least a 10 year period. European costs are just too damn high, there is enormous waste as I've seen personally working in the A&D industry here - somebody has to drink those espressos and eat all those croissants.

Euros don't have the economies of scale of the Yankee. Lockheed is pumping out like 150 F35's a year, supposed to be 200 next year. How many Rafale's or EF's do europeans manufacture per year. Dassault is producing like what? maybe ~20 per year. Not sure of the numbers.

Also doesn't help that India's procurement tends to be peace-meal. 30 here, 20 there. Drives up the costs. Just sign a single G2G deal for all 114 or whatever is the number of birds they want taking into account future plans.

 

[obiwankenobi]

Euros don't have the economies of scale of the Yankee. Lockheed is pumping out like 150 F35's a year, supposed to be 200 next year. How many Rafale's or EF's do europeans manufacture per year. Dassault is producing like what? maybe ~20 per year. Not sure of the numbers.

Also doesn't help that India's procurement tends to be peace-meal. 30 here, 20 there. Drives up the costs. Just sign a single G2G deal for all 114 or whatever is the number of birds they want taking into account future plans.

100%

150 a year is just right now because there has been question mark over future orders. The Fort Worth line is designed to produce a >20 F35s a month i.e. 240 a year. China also producing 120 J20s annually.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Not sure about 114 but another bunch of reports say 40 will be purchased in G2G form for IAF, It's well within chindi Govt's budget without breaking the bank.

I believe the MRFA carrot needs to be dangled to get the other vendor nations to behave themselves, especially Dolund's America
Just dangled, cancel it after 10 years

Seems to be IAF may get 2nd batch of Rafales, Also few Dassault may get some Vendors from India, need to see who will the vendor.

 

[shade2]

Seems to be IAF may get 2nd batch of Rafales, Also few Dassault may get some Vendors from India, need to see who will the vendor.

AFAIK Dassault had purchased chota Ambani's share of the facility in Nagpur, so i guess Dassault will have ownership of the facility for the fuselage, like how Saab has a factory in Haryana to make Car Gustaf and AT4

 

[ArjunMK1A]

AFAIK Dassault had purchased chota Ambani's share of the facility in Nagpur, so i guess Dassault will have ownership of the facility for the fuselage, like how Saab has a factory in Haryana to make Car Gustaf and AT4

Now remembering it, they are using the facility for Dassault Falcon planes. If bigger order is coming, most likely they will expand the facility to handle military planes also. France can have some cost control by sourcing it from India. For us, Job opportunity to our people.

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

AFAIK Dassault had purchased chota Ambani's share of the facility in Nagpur, so i guess Dassault will have ownership of the facility for the fuselage, like how Saab has a factory in Haryana to make Car Gustaf and AT4

Ninja technique to fool Kadi Ninda. After all the original intention is to make Private Sector capable of manufacturing Aerospace tolerant fuselages and Assembly with MRCA competition and Foreign OEM is to impart that expertise to our Private Sector. What's the use of that black box model Dassault gonna do?

 

[Gandaberunda]

Dassault will not fulfill any promise after fighters are delivered they will ask huge money to integrate Astra or drag many years to agree. These French have always fooled us in offset clause + tot in scorpene subs and initial Rafale order of 36.