Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Satish Sharma Ji]

Lmao ignorant peeps here cooking rhetorics without any substance.. it's just constant crying nd squealing..

Now the truth is IAF will go for fully customised F35 same like Isreali Non nato standard F35 ADIR.. with full autonomy to utilise as it wants just like isreal..

I believe in substance rather than rhetorics nd ranting.. nd the substance is US & INDIA have signed defence pacts for next 10 yrs

https://www.business-standard.com/external-affairs-defence-security/news/india-us-to-deepen-defence-ties-with-new-10-year-cooperation-pact-125021401811_1.html

few people before were ranting that US won't offer F35 when india operates S400.. lol guess what india is now offered F35 while it operates F35.. heck even turkey is being offered F35 again..

Turkey puts the brakes on F-16 deal in favour of F-35s

Ankara mulls rerouting $1.4bn it paid for F-16s to next generation jets if Trump readmits it into the programme

www.middleeasteye.net

Nd few ignorants are also saying that US won't deliver F35 on time lol again fallacy.. but Dassault will deliver on time?

Lol US is currently producing 150 F35 per year now it to increase this year by 190 jets nd plans to manufacture atleast 240 in near future to counter chinese scale of manufacturing.. US could decrease the per unit cost of F35A to 82 milion dollars just due to it's economy of scale.

While Dassault ia currently producing 24-36 jets per year while it aims to increase production by 48 jets per year by 2028-29..

Lol it's not even comparable no country on earth can match mass production capacity of chinese nd americans..

U all can cry nd rant without substance..
But the reality is INDIA will buy F35 nd it's imminent.. u know why because rhetorics won't work in defence deals of two countries..

F35 will create a airforce within a airforce

 

[shade2]

None of it matters.
Because we are NOT getting F-35. P.E.R.I.O.D
America will NEVER EVER EVER sell F-35 to a S-400 operator and we care more about having S-400 than F-35.
So therefore, this discussion is moot. Any and all talk of F-35 is for creating some sort of leverage as negotiation tactic for something else. Thats all there is to it.

F35 will create a airforce within a airforce

India's F-35 Acquisition is as likely as reservation for ST being removed @vin pahadi (kumauni) @MarDePopins

And stop posting from two accounts ffs

 

[maximus777]

F35 will create a airforce within a airforce

If we had a decent 5th gen option, SEAD would have been completed by now. There would be no pissing contest between any J10/PL15 with Rafale/Meteor combos, and it would serve as a serious deterrent on the LAC too.

 

[randombully]

If we had a decent 5th gen option, SEAD would have been completed by now. There would be no pissing contest between any J10/PL15 with Rafale/Meteor combos, and it would serve as a serious deterrent on the LAC too.

Can use stealth loyal wingmans and flying wings for sead.
Ghatak's primarly role will be SEAD.

 

[Satish Sharma Ji]

Can use stealth loyal wingmans and flying wings for sead.
Ghatak's primarly role will be SEAD.

Ghatak should be developed into a sophisticated multi sensor Platform for collecting, processing, data sharing for ISR purpose like F35.
If desired stealth and stand off munition is there then there is no actual need for as such maneuverable fighter platforms or even the multi role ones like F35. Ghatak with flying wing design can deliver much more than AMCA in terms of sead if desired. I suppose it should eots is confirmed for Ghatak.
But right now dark clouds are over Ghatak UCAV since project came under of Ade.

 

[Satish Sharma Ji]

India's F-35 Acquisition is as likely as reservation for ST being removed @vin pahadi (kumauni) @MarDePopins

And stop posting from two accounts ffs

How do you know both are same?

 

[karn]

How do you know both are same?

Posting style and use of emojis. In old DFI one of the accounts rage quite after some laffda so an extra account for more brave posting here.

 

[bruno]

What passive sensor you guys talking about?

If the EM of the adverse radar is detected, the system is able to get a very precise azimut and angle. The TV in the OSF point at it, and the laser give the distance. Now you have precise enough information to have a launch solution.

A test pilot told me that they are able to get in 3D a precise location of SAM radar, and it seems (but I never got official confirmation) that it works the exact same way in A2A.

IR sensor, in search mode, are not precise enough to get a hint in a range greater than approximately 30 nautique miles. But with the previous solution, you can catch a fire solution from a greater distance. But then, it is so far that the TV from OSF can only display to you that there is something, not exactly "what it is". So it depend then what are the rules you use before firing.

There are multiple ignorant peeps out here who thinks only rafale will save them from imminent PAF purchase of 5th gen vectors.. lol

Here french pilots themselves are saying it's impossible to fight 5th gen vectors.. check for urself below interview is in french.. translate it in google

There is lobbying in France too. I have published an article in a french magazine which I will resume.
Fights have been conducted with, at best, F3R version of Rafale
There is no tactics or special training against VLO aircraft. Which is normal, because we doesn't have ennemies which have such planes. At best, J20 and Su-57 are considered as LO, and not impossible to detect. Just, from a lower distance, but enough to use long range A2A weapon.

But there is a thing. If Rafale isn't able to fight with VLO aircrafts, VLO aircrafts can't eather. Because they use basically the same technologies of sensors (Radar and IRST).
So if a VLO aircraft wants to stay VLO, he will need to remain silent and not use his Radar. So once the Radar is used they take the big risk, with planes like Rafale in front of them, which have very good integrated and sensitive sensors, to be detected. And so their stealth goes to trash.

If the VLO airplanes rely on their own passive sensors, so the other planes can do the same.

The next 10 years in therms of tactics and sensors will be... Interesting.

If India choose to go with Rafale F5 with UCAV integrated in the combat system, so you will have the benefit of the VLO platform AND the benefit of a NOT STEALTH airplane, which come with lower price, lower cost per flight hour, geat number, etc.

 

[randombully]

If the EM of the adverse radar is detected, the system is able to get a very precise azimut and angle. The TV in the OSF point at it, and the laser give the distance. Now you have precise enough information to have a launch solution.

A test pilot told me that they are able to get in 3D a precise location of SAM radar, and it seems (but I never got official confirmation) that it works the exact same way in A2A.

IR sensor, in search mode, are not precise enough to get a hint in a range greater than approximately 30 nautique miles. But with the previous solution, you can catch a fire solution from a greater distance. But then, it is so far that the TV from OSF can only display to you that there is something, not exactly "what it is". So it depend then what are the rules you use before firing.

There is lobbying in France too. I have published an article in a french magazine which I will resume.
Fights have been conducted with, at best, F3R version of Rafale
There is no tactics or special training against VLO aircraft. Which is normal, because we doesn't have ennemies which have such planes. At best, J20 and Su-57 are considered as LO, and not impossible to detect. Just, from a lower distance, but enough to use long range A2A weapon.

But there is a thing. If Rafale isn't able to fight with VLO aircrafts, VLO aircrafts can't eather. Because they use basically the same technologies of sensors (Radar and IRST).
So if a VLO aircraft wants to stay VLO, he will need to remain silent and not use his Radar. So once the Radar is used they take the big risk, with planes like Rafale in front of them, which have very good integrated and sensitive sensors, to be detected. And so their stealth goes to trash.

If the VLO airplanes rely on their own passive sensors, so the other planes can do the same.

The next 10 years in therms of tactics and sensors will be... Interesting.

If India choose to go with Rafale F5 with UCAV integrated in the combat system, so you will have the benefit of the VLO platform AND the benefit of a NOT STEALTH airplane, which come with lower price, lower cost per flight hour, geat number, etc.

*********"There is no tactics or special training against VLO aircraft. Which is normal, because we doesn't have ennemies which have such planes. At best, J20 and Su-57 are considered as LO, and not impossible to detect. Just, from a lower distance, but enough to use long range A2A weapon."
.
I'd take issue with this, I've done multinational excercises with the French in the middle East where they didn't have a chance of doing so against our supers.

We stayed carrying the Luneberg lenses simply to make it worth the flight. Without them there were several missions I recall where our guys 'killed' the Rafales twice in BFR without even being detected, and then by the time they had been detected had closed to such a distance that it was a WVR fight given the closing speeds... At which point the Rafales were killed again.

They've recieved upgrades since then to be fair, but so have everything else.*******


Seems to me the distance of fso getting a firing solution is highly exaggerated by you

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

*********"There is no tactics or special training against VLO aircraft. Which is normal, because we doesn't have ennemies which have such planes. At best, J20 and Su-57 are considered as LO, and not impossible to detect. Just, from a lower distance, but enough to use long range A2A weapon."
.
I'd take issue with this, I've done multinational excercises with the French in the middle East where they didn't have a chance of doing so against our supers.

We stayed carrying the Luneberg lenses simply to make it worth the flight. Without them there were several missions I recall where our guys 'killed' the Rafales twice in BFR without even being detected, and then by the time they had been detected had closed to such a distance that it was a WVR fight given the closing speeds... At which point the Rafales were killed again.

They've recieved upgrades since then to be fair, but so have everything else.*******


Seems to me the distance of fso getting a firing solution is highly exaggerated by you

can rafale meteor or our other BVR missiles (like astra 1 nd 2) guide by AWACS toward target??? i mean if our AWACS can guide our BVR missiles, they can track nd trace enemy 5 genration aircraft at far more distance than fighter aircraft radars. how many countries hv that capability? any idea.

 

[randombully]

can rafale meteor or our other BVR missiles (like astra 1 nd 2) guide by AWACS toward target??? i mean if our AWACS can guide our BVR missiles, they can track nd trace enemy 5 genration aircraft at far more distance than fighter aircraft radars. how many countries hv that capability? any idea.

Awacs use S band and L band radar, which are not good at tracking, only detecting.

So while awacs can guide while using datalink, but it needs tracking info from another platform much closer to the target which has a radar(x band) that can track the targets, so awacs can be used as a relay network, but so can other fighter jets "network centric".
But awacs can't use it's own radar for tracking targets at a distance fighter radars can't, but it can detect targets at very long range compared to fighter radar( X band).

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

Awacs use S band and L band radar, which are not good at tracking, only detecting.

So while awacs can guide while using datalink, but it needs tracking info from another platform much closer to the target which has a radar(x band) that can track the targets, so awacs can be used as a relay network, but so can other fighter jets "network centric".
But awacs can't use it's own radar for tracking targets at a distance fighter radars can't, but it can detect targets at very long range compared to fighter radar( X band).

thnks....i see this argument from pakistani defence forum that their PL 15 can get AWACS guidence from 200+ km range. than i thought isnt it better to make many hardpoints under our boieng C17 globemaster nd launch many BVR missiles from it with help of AWACS.

 

[bruno]

*********"There is no tactics or special training against VLO aircraft. Which is normal, because we doesn't have ennemies which have such planes. At best, J20 and Su-57 are considered as LO, and not impossible to detect. Just, from a lower distance, but enough to use long range A2A weapon."
.
I'd take issue with this, I've done multinational excercises with the French in the middle East where they didn't have a chance of doing so against our supers.

We stayed carrying the Luneberg lenses simply to make it worth the flight. Without them there were several missions I recall where our guys 'killed' the Rafales twice in BFR without even being detected, and then by the time they had been detected had closed to such a distance that it was a WVR fight given the closing speeds... At which point the Rafales were killed again.

They've recieved upgrades since then to be fair, but so have everything else.*******


Seems to me the distance of fso getting a firing solution is highly exaggerated by you

You can't rely with one situation to explain the overall situation. For the reason I already gave to you.
When exercises are organised, first it depend on which side you are. Red or blue ? And what are the rules of engagement? We don't know that.

Now try to re-read what I wrote already.

 

[randombully]

You can't rely with one situation to explain the overall situation. For the reason I already gave to you.
When exercises are organised, first it depend on which side you are. Red or blue ? And what are the rules of engagement? We don't know that.

Now try to re-read what I wrote already.

****I've got too much direct involvement with all of the types to give out exact numbers
But safe to say the Rafales, although they're an incredibly well built and very balanced multirole fighter, is simply not a match against the supers in an equal flight
To the extent that we would not even deviate from target when pushing through a defensive screen made up of Rafales, there was no need****.


******The rafale will not engage something like the F-35, 22 or J-20 before it engages them.

several exercises have proved this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

they were one of the gen 4s that needed the rules changed during red flag because they couldn't get a shot off against VLOs.

the only alert you'd realistically get would be a missile launch/terminal signal.
without turning your radar on.
and that would be with the latest hardware currently fielded.*******


So about the rules, yeah.
Though radar in passive mode and then TV of FSO will alow much greater distance than IRST, but it's not enough to give it chance against VLO.
From whar I talked about with those guys, the Range Is still significantly less than active radar against variety of targets.


Also I came to know SHblk3, mogged rafale f3s during exercises.

 

[bruno]

Ok let me ask you a very simple question. How a F35 engage another F35C ? Or a J20 ?

 

[randombully]

Ok let me ask you a very simple question. How a F35 engage another F35C ? Or a J20 ?

Right now, most engagements will happen in within visual range of each other between stealth fighters.
Even if one is detected beyond that range.

Though in future cca's can change that by acting as sensor extenders.




Though given the size and Power of radar array of f35, f35 should not have problem with detecting a loaded rafale at ~100km in LPI mode and ~60-80km for Tracking rafale. In normal active mode 150-200km tracking.

And for rafale to detect the lpi mode emission of f35's radar using its own radar in passive mode , even with latest tech the distance should be highly optimistically ~40-50km at most to detect a lpi signal, realitistically though 20-40km.

F35 can get a firing solution and rafale won't even know their is f35.
Even with spectra on( so called " active stealth").

 

[bruno]

Right now, most engagements will happen in within visual range of each other between stealth fighters.
Even if one is detected beyond that range.

Because they also don't want to use their own active sensors. In that scenario, chance against a well equiped fighter, even not stealth, are quite equals... Because you are at close range.

Though in future cca's can change that by acting as sensor extenders.

Though given the size and Power of radar array of f35, f35 should not have problem with detecting a loaded rafale at ~100km in LPI mode and ~60-70km for Tracking rafale. In normal active mode 150+km tracking.

This is exactly where your error is. A LPI radar is not a NPI radar. Because low is not "not" (there are no magical technology yet). If the F35 turn on his radar, there is a chance to catch it. And then it become the range of the EM specialists. Maybe at first engagement you'll not get it, but each radar have its own signature and then it will be mouse and cat chasing by rewriting library every few months or weeks. (It is here by the way that there is an issue if you don't have an access to the software with the F35)

And for rafale to detect the lpi mode emission of f35's radar using its own radar in passive mode , even with latest tech the distance should be highly optimistically ~40-50km at most to detect a lpi signal, realitistically though 20-40km.

Second error, and a big one is you think that the LPI runs in magical mode which allows him to ignore physic. You can't say that the radar wave is able to detect a Rafale at 150+ km and in the same time that the same signal can be detected at only 20-40km. It makes no sense.

Lets assume one moment that the LPI signal is intercepted and well known by your own system. Into this situation, if your plane is able to be detected at 150+km, so we can detect the energy of your radar at, at least, 450km. Because the same signal is getting reduced when he reach the target, but he need to get enough energy to be detected by the source radar when the beam return to the radar.


In conclusion, I'm not saying that a Rafale will be able to detect and fight against a VLO aircraf. No. What I'm saying is that in the sky, during the war, we don't have only two pilots fighting in the sky for bravoure and honor.
it is much more complex than that, and we need to create scenario and evaluate precisely how you can use your tools. In these scenario (sweep, interception, attack, penetration, interdiction, etc.) Will a Rafale being able to be useful ? And what about a F35 ? And what about a mix of two ? And what about all the rest of your equipments ?

 

[Gandaberunda]

If we had a decent 5th gen option, SEAD would have been completed by now. There would be no pissing contest between any J10/PL15 with Rafale/Meteor combos, and it would serve as a serious deterrent on the LAC too.

This is straight out of modi’s - Aaj Rafale hote toh after Pulwama

 

[Gandaberunda]

thnks....i see this argument from pakistani defence forum that their PL 15 can get AWACS guidence from 200+ km range. than i thought isnt it better to make many hardpoints under our boieng C17 globemaster nd launch many BVR missiles from it with help of AWACS.

lol we can use our P8I without any modifications

 

[DumbPilot]

Awacs use S band and L band radar, which are not good at tracking, only detecting.

So while awacs can guide while using datalink, but it needs tracking info from another platform much closer to the target which has a radar(x band) that can track the targets, so awacs can be used as a relay network, but so can other fighter jets "network centric".
But awacs can't use it's own radar for tracking targets at a distance fighter radars can't, but it can detect targets at very long range compared to fighter radar( X band).

Just to add to this, S/L band radars are also able to track objects, it's just that the larger wavelength means a lower frequency, which means a lower resolution(i.e if 4 planes are bunched together, maybe only 2 or 3 would show up on the display. by "bunched together" I mean as close as Suryakiran display team during airshows):



How does the transmitting wave actually look like?(a dipole antenna is pictured here)

Tracking through radar is a different topic altogether: but monopulse tracking system is usually the norm for simple radars. Tracking almost always utilizes a doppler-effect based mechanism, and any sort of wave can do that

PS: I have big doubts if our AWACS actually suffer from this problem in practice - the only place where this might be possible is if the PAF jets fly like it's a parade formation, which no one does in reality and in combat.