Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[GaudaNaresh]

Your Air Marshall is wrong ? Just like that... Without justifying anything ? You're so sure about your assertion that you throw up the full statement of your own air force chief ? For me his statement was, on a contrary, very logical and makes sense in the context.

You told that SAFRAN REFUSED to transfer the technology for hot part. My questions will be very simple :

- Do you have a source to prove your statment ? On my side I see official communications telling that Safran is ready to transfer 100% of the technology for engine.
- If your statement is true, what is behind this refusal ? A money or contractual issue ? Or the willing to not makes TOT on sensitive stuff ? Because if true, this is against the official communication, so...

I'm waiting for your answer but it seems that you are making confusion between the reality of facts and your personnal opinion.

The refusal is to share keystone technology with anyone. Nobody has ever shared hot section engine tech with a foreign entity. Not the us, not France. Not russia, nobody.

As for our air chief being wrong- he is wrong coz history says he is wrong. Simple. Again, no import military has ever beaten an indigenous military in industrial era. Ever.

 

[bruno]

The refusal is to share keystone technology with anyone. Nobody has ever shared hot section engine tech with a foreign entity. Not the us, not France. Not russia, nobody.

It is not because something hasn't even been done that it will be forever.
You must use the conditional a bit. Because France already accepted to share this technology. But it comes with a cost, indeed.

As for our air chief being wrong- he is wrong coz history says he is wrong. Simple. Again, no import military has ever beaten an indigenous military in industrial era. Ever.

No, but you can use foreign technologies to helps you to learn and fill the gap. A little bit like the Chinese did. They didn't developed everything by them self, but bought a lot from foreign countries (mainly Russia lately). Now they have reached a certain experience they can develop by themselves.

India have 3 problems.
1- IAF inventory is very low and volume requirements is very high. You cannot solve this problem by yourself for, at least, the 10 to 20 next year's. (Because the gap is increasing every year while no decision is taken)

2- following previous point. The local industry, driven by HAL, is unable to provide good quality as well as good rate for new fighter.

3- technology gap. It took 40 years to develop LCA, and the planes does not meet the current requirements. You have big dreams about LCA MK2 or TEDBF. but look the reality in front of you. TEBDF for example is so close from a Rafale that only fanboys can make a difference. And you are talking about dream technologies of the future for AMCA but the reality is the root cause of your issues isn't mitigate yet.
I don't say that indian people are stupid (plenty of my colleagues are Indians). We are all humans with the same abilities. But the decisions of the past in your country, and the issues in the governance are still there. That is why the solution proposed by your air chief Marshal AP Sing could actually work.

Requesting to foreign countries to setup a parallel industry which will work by exporting their way of doing things, which will become standards in few years.

You don't need to buy 100% of technologies. But only takes what you can get on a smooth way, and spend your money with smart on technologies that nobody want to sell to you. Or to take some advances in area which nobody's has explored yet.

How much money did india spent in Kavery programm ? How much late is it ? People whom started to work on it are already retired.

You WANT AP Sing to be wrong , but the reality is what it is.

IT is the first time for me, and I'm covering this topic since a while, that I'm thankful to see, and it is very rare, someone speak true.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

It is not because something hasn't even been done that it will be forever.
You must use the conditional a bit. Because France already accepted to share this technology. But it comes with a cost, indeed.

No, but you can use foreign technologies to helps you to learn and fill the gap. A little bit like the Chinese did. They didn't developed everything by them self, but bought a lot from foreign countries (mainly Russia lately). Now they have reached a certain experience they can develop by themselves.

India have 3 problems.
1- IAF inventory is very low and volume requirements is very high. You cannot solve this problem by yourself for, at least, the 10 to 20 next year's. (Because the gap is increasing every year while no decision is taken)

2- following previous point. The local industry, driven by HAL, is unable to provide good quality as well as good rate for new fighter.

3- technology gap. It took 40 years to develop LCA, and the planes does not meet the current requirements. You have big dreams about LCA MK2 or TEDBF. but look the reality in front of you. TEBDF for example is so close from a Rafale that only fanboys can make a difference. And you are talking about dream technologies of the future for AMCA but the reality is the root cause of your issues isn't mitigate yet.
I don't say that indian people are stupid (plenty of my colleagues are Indians). We are all humans with the same abilities. But the decisions of the past in your country, and the issues in the governance are still there. That is why the solution proposed by your air chief Marshal AP Sing could actually work.

Requesting to foreign countries to setup a parallel industry which will work by exporting their way of doing things, which will become standards in few years.

You don't need to buy 100% of technologies. But only takes what you can get on a smooth way, and spend your money with smart on technologies that nobody want to sell to you. Or to take some advances in area which nobody's has explored yet.

How much money did india spent in Kavery programm ? How much late is it ? People whom started to work on it are already retired.

You WANT AP Sing to be wrong , but the reality is what it is.

IT is the first time for me, and I'm covering this topic since a while, that I'm thankful to see, and it is very rare, someone speak true.

Chinese planes do not meet requirement either. No plane manufacturer meets requirement from it's first models
China is where China is because it kept inducting substandard material to learn to improve it through process iteration.
India made mistake by buying rafale and not going through process iteration to improve it's own product.
And that is why import lobby must end. We don't get much by buying 36 jets from france- we get a lot more by making 300 local jets for same price and improving our own product through process iteration.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

High altitude isn't the yippee this guy thinks it is, when the horizon can't save your ass from getting lit up by a monster radar. If you want a hypersonic fighter, it's more economical to just fire a longer ranged hypersonic missile or forward/stage assets closer to target. The MiG-41 is pure snake oil right now. GCAP's project goals have been scrapped and rewritten so many times, it's hard to say if it'll even get made. Knowing Japan, they'll skedaddle soon enough citing cost overruns, maybe get an engine from US and go with their own design. I have no retort for this guy's chinese space fighter, other than we should ask the Japanese for help.
View attachment 33185​

Having different opinion, thinking about far future is not a problem, but it should be based on some tech foundation & time constraint.

But problem with this guy is that just like Transformer, he has tried to transform every thread, derailed every thread doing this piggybacking propaganda that -
- IAF doesn't need 6gen jet, so no need to join GCAP, FCAS or make our own.
- But AMCA with just 4 BVR-AAMs is fine till 2070s. CATS will do the rest.
- IAF should wait for Russia to roll out MiG-41, get few squads of them,
- After that in 2050s IAF should design 7gen Hypersonic near space or space fighter.

The world doesn't even have any outline of 7gen when trying to understand 6gen fully.

About Turbofan/Turbojet, even VCE, we can talk about its parameters like OPR, BPR, TET, air mass flow, SFC, fuel tank capacity, etc.
But for SCRamjet we common citizens don't know any parameter.

The studies on hypersonics have been going on but mostly top secret, only some diagrams, animations.
X-15 is the only known manned HySo aircraft, that too rocket powered, not jet powered.
USA wanted to make something out of X-30 NASP but couldn't.
1990s rumors like Aurora, SR-91, XR-7, etc have remained rumors till today.
SR-72 Darkstar exists only in movie, videogames, animations.

SR-71 Blackbird & its attack version A-12 with AAMs in IWBs, needed big body with big fuel tanks & AAR. A HySo jet imagined with IWB will also need massive fuel & AAR.

A HySo jet cannot fly HySo in enemy space bcoz if LEO satellite can be shot down, so can a HySo jet.

A HySo jet cannot be agile at lower speeds due to its highly swept body. At HySo speed also at high altitude, it'll need thrusters bcoz low air density reduces control surface efficiency. I wonder how can a massive jet like that be an ASF.

We cant make a 4gen afterburning engine properly, asking around for ToT & JV, then some people overconfidently straight away CONCLUDE things about SCRamjet space fighter based on just DRDOs HSTDV & preliminary ground test.



I suspect that this guy is even Indian.

 

[bruno]

Chinese planes do not meet requirement either.

WHAT ?! Are you serious ? Or you are still leaving in a parallel dimension ?
Maybe China is not able to produce fighters with the same quality than russia or occident. But we are no more sure anymore. In fact we don't know. But we can say without any hesitation that India is waaaaay behind them.

No plane manufacturer meets requirement from it's first models

So you consider that LCA is the first model of fighter aircraft built in India ?
But what about the HF-24 Marut ? What about the Ajeet ? Old aircraft maybe, but India was never able, due to a lot of factor, to maintain the course.
A lot of other countries started from scratch long time after India, and they already have results. Like Korea with T50 and with start of development of the KF21, Or Turkey with Kaan.
They got help from foreign countries, but there are advancing very fast.
You can tell that no plane manufacturer meets requirement from the first model, but do you know ANY OTHER company in the WORLD, which took 40 year to produce one unfinished product such as the LCA ?

China is where China is because it kept inducting substandard material to learn to improve it through process iteration.
India made mistake by buying rafale and not going through process iteration to improve it's own product.

And China, at the time there were starting to produce their own aicraft, bought a LOT of fighter jets from foreign countries. They bought about 100 of Su30MKK approximately at the same time than india. It is also "amusing" to compare by telling that the J10 program started approximately at the same time than the LCA. But the difference is that the airplane is in service since 20 years, and they have 600 of them in their inventory today.

And that is why import lobby must end.

Ok but what you do with your air force ? HAL is trying hard to produce but, and even if we don't take into account the engine delivery issue from US, the 40 first jets are not delivered yet, since... 10 years !
So, I fully agree, India need to develop its own industry. But can your armed force wait for 30 years to get new planes in numbers ?

We don't get much by buying 36 jets from france- we get a lot more by making 300 local jets for same price and improving our own product through process iteration.

Ok so you thing that the Air chief Marshal doesn't want more Tejas, and when he speak hardly against the inability from HAL to produce aircraft, in fact it does not support them, and there is a kind of conspiracy from a lobby which doesn't want to produce locally ? What are your explanations about the today lack of production rating ?

 

[GaudaNaresh]

WHAT ?! Are you serious ? Or you are still leaving in a parallel dimension ?
Maybe China is not able to produce fighters with the same quality than russia or occident. But we are no more sure anymore. In fact we don't know. But we can say without any hesitation that India is waaaaay behind them.

Thats irrlevant. What i said is, Chinese jets, especially every single jet before the J-20 doesnt meet specifications either. Especially the 100s of jets they made in the 90s and early 2000s.

So you consider that LCA is the first model of fighter aircraft built in India ?
But what about the HF-24 Marut ? What about the Ajeet ? Old aircraft maybe, but India was never able, due to a lot of factor, to maintain the course.

Not same company, not same plane. When you make first plane model for your company, its your first plane. If you built another plane 50 years ago and shut shop and destroyed the designs, then its irrelevant and contributes nothing to iterative development.

A lot of other countries started from scratch long time after India, and they already have results. Like Korea with T50 and with start of development of the KF21, Or Turkey with Kaan.
They got help from foreign countries, but there are advancing very fast.
You can tell that no plane manufacturer meets requirement from the first model, but do you know ANY OTHER company in the WORLD, which took 40 year to produce one unfinished product such as the LCA ?

On what planet is KAAN even comparable to the Tejas lol.

And China, at the time there were starting to produce their own aicraft, bought a LOT of fighter jets from foreign countries. They bought about 100 of Su30MKK approximately at the same time than india. It is also "amusing" to compare by telling that the J10 program started approximately at the same time than the LCA. But the difference is that the airplane is in service since 20 years, and they have 600 of them in their inventory today.

They bought 100 Su-30 MKK and then made 400 of their knockoff copies. We bought 270 Su-30 MKI and didnt make a single knockoff copy. J10 is a success because china doesnt have import lobby like India does, which retards indegenous tech development.

Ok but what you do with your air force ? HAL is trying hard to produce but, and even if we don't take into account the engine delivery issue from US, the 40 first jets are not delivered yet, since... 10 years !
So, I fully agree, India need to develop its own industry. But can your armed force wait for 30 years to get new planes in numbers ?

I prefer we put in cavery in Tejas and make 1000 of them. In the process of making them, we will make iterative developments and make them better and better, like every manufacturer.

Ok so you thing that the Air chief Marshal doesn't want more Tejas, and when he speak hardly against the inability from HAL to produce aircraft, in fact it does not support them, and there is a kind of conspiracy from a lobby which doesn't want to produce locally ? What are your explanations about the today lack of production rating ?

Yes. they are bribed by your arms industry to buy useless shit. This is known worldwide how most third world country tenders work - he who bribes the most gets the deal.

 

[bruno]

Thats irrlevant. What i said is, Chinese jets, especially every single jet before the J-20 doesnt meet specifications either. Especially the 100s of jets they made in the 90s and early 2000s.

Not same company, not same plane. When you make first plane model for your company, its your first plane. If you built another plane 50 years ago and shut shop and destroyed the designs, then its irrelevant and contributes nothing to iterative development.


On what planet is KAAN even comparable to the Tejas lol.


They bought 100 Su-30 MKK and then made 400 of their knockoff copies. We bought 270 Su-30 MKI and didnt make a single knockoff copy. J10 is a success because china doesnt have import lobby like India does, which retards indegenous tech development.

I prefer we put in cavery in Tejas and make 1000 of them. In the process of making them, we will make iterative developments and make them better and better, like every manufacturer.

Yes. they are bribed by your arms industry to buy useless shit. This is known worldwide how most third world country tenders work - he who bribes the most gets the deal.

Ok so it seems that we leave in two parallel reality of the same word. I won't debate more.
But you didn't reply to one of the most important question (and avoid others). What your Air force should do in the meantime ?

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Ok so it seems that we leave in two parallel reality of the same word. I won't debate more.
But you didn't reply to one of the most important question (and avoid others). What your Air force should do in the meantime ?

i am the one talking OF reality : Chinese put up with substandard junk planes for 20 years that they made,so they could get GOOD at making planes via interative refinement. Your own french air industry did the same - your planes between ww1 and ww2 were uttter horseshit. You didnt buy foreign, you made garbage frenchie planes for 30 years and got better by interative development.

I want the same for my country. Not to buy shiny toys from outside that wont help us win a war anyways.

I told you what my airforce should do - putter around with what they have and spend 10 billion to buy 300 tejas instead of 10 billion to buy 30 rafales. Quantity is a quality of its own as Russians proved by beating the technologically superior nazis.
i would rather have 10 substandard tejas with caveri than 1 Rafale.

 

[DancingPeacock]

WHAT ?! Are you serious ? Or you are still leaving in a parallel dimension ?
Maybe China is not able to produce fighters with the same quality than russia or occident. But we are no more sure anymore. In fact we don't know. But we can say without any hesitation that India is waaaaay behind them.

So you consider that LCA is the first model of fighter aircraft built in India ?
But what about the HF-24 Marut ? What about the Ajeet ? Old aircraft maybe, but India was never able, due to a lot of factor, to maintain the course.
A lot of other countries started from scratch long time after India, and they already have results. Like Korea with T50 and with start of development of the KF21, Or Turkey with Kaan.
They got help from foreign countries, but there are advancing very fast.
You can tell that no plane manufacturer meets requirement from the first model, but do you know ANY OTHER company in the WORLD, which took 40 year to produce one unfinished product such as the LCA ?

And China, at the time there were starting to produce their own aicraft, bought a LOT of fighter jets from foreign countries. They bought about 100 of Su30MKK approximately at the same time than india. It is also "amusing" to compare by telling that the J10 program started approximately at the same time than the LCA. But the difference is that the airplane is in service since 20 years, and they have 600 of them in their inventory today.

Ok but what you do with your air force ? HAL is trying hard to produce but, and even if we don't take into account the engine delivery issue from US, the 40 first jets are not delivered yet, since... 10 years !
So, I fully agree, India need to develop its own industry. But can your armed force wait for 30 years to get new planes in numbers ?

Ok so you thing that the Air chief Marshal doesn't want more Tejas, and when he speak hardly against the inability from HAL to produce aircraft, in fact it does not support them, and there is a kind of conspiracy from a lobby which doesn't want to produce locally ? What are your explanations about the today lack of production rating ?

Iam not gonna write any long ass para- Reply to this if you can think beyond 2-braincells.

Funding to First Flight: J-10(12-Years) vs Tejas(15-Years)
First Flight to Operational: J-10(08-Years) vs Tejas(10-Years)
Total: 20-Years vs 25-Years

The Miracle is that India is able to even deliver just 5-years late with the amount of roadblocks thrown at it like Sanctions, Internal Sabotage, lack of Political Support is a miracle.

"Muh 40-year timeline" is like that of statements made by low intelligent people who can't throw numbers or facts to back them up.

For 40-years timeline argument to even work, Tejas has to be say if started in 1986 would have to get IOC in 2026. You really need to back up with facts instead of throwing statements that exposes sub-human IQ.

 

[DancingPeacock]

WHAT ?! Are you serious ? Or you are still leaving in a parallel dimension ?
Maybe China is not able to produce fighters with the same quality than russia or occident. But we are no more sure anymore. In fact we don't know. But we can say without any hesitation that India is waaaaay behind them.

So you consider that LCA is the first model of fighter aircraft built in India ?
But what about the HF-24 Marut ? What about the Ajeet ? Old aircraft maybe, but India was never able, due to a lot of factor, to maintain the course.
A lot of other countries started from scratch long time after India, and they already have results. Like Korea with T50 and with start of development of the KF21, Or Turkey with Kaan.
They got help from foreign countries, but there are advancing very fast.
You can tell that no plane manufacturer meets requirement from the first model, but do you know ANY OTHER company in the WORLD, which took 40 year to produce one unfinished product such as the LCA ?

And China, at the time there were starting to produce their own aicraft, bought a LOT of fighter jets from foreign countries. They bought about 100 of Su30MKK approximately at the same time than india. It is also "amusing" to compare by telling that the J10 program started approximately at the same time than the LCA. But the difference is that the airplane is in service since 20 years, and they have 600 of them in their inventory today.

Ok but what you do with your air force ? HAL is trying hard to produce but, and even if we don't take into account the engine delivery issue from US, the 40 first jets are not delivered yet, since... 10 years !
So, I fully agree, India need to develop its own industry. But can your armed force wait for 30 years to get new planes in numbers ?

Ok so you thing that the Air chief Marshal doesn't want more Tejas, and when he speak hardly against the inability from HAL to produce aircraft, in fact it does not support them, and there is a kind of conspiracy from a lobby which doesn't want to produce locally ? What are your explanations about the today lack of production rating ?

I can't help but pity at the lack of higher order thinking of yours. USA, UK, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, Sweden all made planes before even India gained Independence. When India gained Independence in 1947- it started at negative with so much poverty and lack of Institutional Knowledge compared to above countries which had a legacy of rich experience of building fighter jets.

So obviously, for someone in delusion, Countries like above with Institutional Knowledge who can build fighters Incrementally of generations is SAME as India which started at Zero and in turn taking longer times. Marut argument is foolish in a sense that that some foreigner coming in and helping build things is same as true Sovereign know-why and know-how.

I can agree that South Korea is ahead due to much help from Lockheed Martin but you have cited KAAN as an example that shows your shallow knowledge.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Iam not gonna write any long ass para- Reply to this if you can think beyond 2-braincells.

Funding to First Flight: J-10(12-Years) vs Tejas(15-Years)
First Flight to Operational: J-10(08-Years) vs Tejas(10-Years)
Total: 20-Years vs 25-Years

The Miracle is that India is able to even deliver just 5-years late with the amount of roadblocks thrown at it like Sanctions, Internal Sabotage, lack of Political Support is a miracle.

"Muh 40-year timeline" is like that of statements made by low intelligent people who can't throw numbers or facts to back them up.

For 40-years timeline argument to even work, Tejas has to be say if started in 1986 would have to get IOC in 2026. So who is in delusion here?

As i noted earlier in another thread, Indians suffer from german mentality towards war - that to win wars, we must have the bestest equipment, look to do 30:1 casualties with our wunderwaffen technology else not fight.
This is not something new, this is an aspect of Indian history itself.
Take for eg Iron.
Who made by faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar the best quality iron & steel weapons and handled by faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar the most massive cast iron projects ? India ( for the latter its the iron pillars of india).
Pliny the elder's records show, Roman empire bought 20% of its steel weapons from India itself.

But who was the biggest producer of iron in this period, by a factor of 3x compared to the 2nd place (which was India at this point) ? China. Who also made the most substandard iron of this time ?China.

But after Gupta period, this becomes EXTREME - Indian iron quanity declines to become behind that of Persia itself and one of the biggest reasons muslim invasions was so successful is because of lack of iron implements in the general population.
meanwhile, China continued to be the most massive iron producer till the 1800s when industrial era came and britain overtook China.

The only Indian in the last 1000 years, to think outside this 'quality is the only thing we care, import shit from others if its better quality than us' mentality was....shivaji.
Thats it, the end. Even his successors went back to this retardation, which is why Marathas didnt manufacture cannons and bought them from the French - who had the best cannons at that time. All the while forgetting that if you take pangaa with Britain, frenchie ships carrying cannons will never make it to you in the first place.

 

[bruno]

Iam not gonna write any long ass para- Reply to this if you can think beyond 2-braincells.

Bold of you to assume I’d use even two.
More seriously. Do you really need to be insultant ?

Funding to First Flight: J-10(12-Years) vs Tejas(15-Years)
First Flight to Operational: J-10(08-Years) vs Tejas(10-Years)
Total: 20-Years vs 25-Years

Yeah, and we can compare other figures too...
Ok to consider that 5 years is nothing, but my point wasn't there. IAF still doesn't have 40 planes delivered from the first order, while China got 600 of J10.
The think is that 2 braincells are enough to understand, but for debate about this fact and argues, you really need the power of a datacenter.

"Muh 40-year timeline" is like that of statements made by low intelligent people who can't throw numbers or facts to back them up.

If you want actual numbers and facts, ask. No need for random insults.
The think is that if you compare J10 to LCA, China isn't at the same level. While HAL is struggling to deliver 40 first aircraft of the first version of the plane, China moved forward with J-10C and a lot of improvment you'll maybe get with the future version which didn't even started to flight.

For 40-years timeline argument to even work, Tejas has to be say if started in 1986 would have to get IOC in 2026. You really need to back up with facts instead of throwing statements that exposes sub-human IQ.

I wrote fast. It was 30 years. But does it change anything to my point ? No. You prefer pushing on buttons and be insultant. 30 years is a very high number, and the production rate is a failure.

Why are you so agressive ? Because i bold to compare China with India ?

I can't help but pity at the lack of higher order thinking of yours. USA, UK, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, Sweden all made planes before even India gained Independence

Not France. After WW2, the industry was completely destroy. All allies started to work on jet engine already years ago, and in this time, developments were fast. What France did ? They bough Nene reactors from the britishs, and they also bought a lot of planes from the US : Vampire, F84, F86, F100.

but France, back in those times have a strong willing. And completely reorganized the industry.
So you can buy foreign planes AND in the same time develop your own industry. It is just a choice. And there isn't only one way to achieve it.

My point is : don't be focus on only one solution.

 

[bruno]

Oh, with my 2 brain cells I completely forgot to mention that while we are stuck by comparing j10 and tejas, China continue with... How many project ? There are accelerating. Isn't this a fact too ?

 

[Spitfire IX]

During initial MMRCA, almost 100% of the plane should have been built in India. Not only assembly. So I'm surprised to ear that something has been refused from France, like hot part. Do you have a source for that ?

The default OEM position is NO for transfer of advanced technology, isn't it? I think there are several possible positions a supplier can take

1 Full TOT (including hot section secrets etc) not available
2 Partial TOT for large amounts of money available
3 Token TOT available (eg technology the buyer already has)

Unless there is a source indicating that something has NOT been refused from France, it is very speculative to assume the opposite is the case IMO.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Oh, with my 2 brain cells I completely forgot to mention that while we are stuck by comparing j10 and tejas, China continue with... How many project ? There are accelerating. Isn't this a fact too ?

so ? how does that change my argument ?
we wont beat accelerated chinese projects by buying super-expensive western toys in 20-30 amount that we can afford.
we are better off using our own substandard crap for same budget and making 200 of them.