Indian Air Force: News & Discussions (22 Viewers)

[Srinivas]

su57 is better than rusted balloon killer f22, period. but it is max in the leagues of 4.5 gen fighters like rafale f4 and all. true 5th gen is f35 and j35 till now. they both are a result of long iterational research and development and production upgrades. but the actual ones are kept with the home nation.

how can we forget another russian dalali which used to happen, wooded su75 mockup which costed 30 million usd even before becoming a prototype. i remember people used to say ditch mwf and go for su75

Pakistan is not getting 4.5 gen J35.

 

[liberalredditor]

Pakistan is not getting 4.5 gen J35.

first of all, dont be overconfident that china produces bad weapons, yes it gives trash quality to pak but this attitude would be dangerous when we get into tussle with xhina itself. they have a much better academia then us and they have iterational experience + f35 stolen data, just for your preparations consider j35 is 5th gen. galatfehmi me mat raho ki wo khilauna hai, xhina apne side se aaya to humari maa behen ek kar dega sadly, they have huge quantity

 

[redpanda]

first of all, dont be overconfident that china produces bad weapons, yes it gives trash quality to pak but this attitude would be dangerous when we get into tussle with xhina itself. they have a much better academia then us and they have iterational experience + f35 stolen data, just for your preparations consider j35 is 5th gen. galatfehmi me mat raho ki wo khilauna hai, xhina apne side se aaya to humari maa behen ek kar dega sadly, they have huge quantity

Tbh but i think they will sell them a prototype version of J-35. Most like FC-31 repackaged as J35 to keep various important technologies they have developed from getting into hand of their adversaries.

In case of China itself. Ofc the Chinese are way ahead in aviation technology compared to us. But the gap isn't that huge elsewhere from a qualitative perspective. So there is no need to panic. But I agree we shouldn't downplay them either. And it is possible for India to bridge these gaps over the years if we try hard enough. People working in these sectors very much acknowledge those gaps and are working towards bridging these gaps. Let us have some faith on them.

Those Chinese themselves didn't became successful in one day when it comes aviation technology. It took them 10-20 years to even build J-10 even with blueprints from Israeli Levi project. It took their years of development and espionage to even make their J-20 work. It takes a lot of effort. Just like J-10 was their stepping stone which people used to laugh at one day, Tejas is ours. And one day it too will pave the way for Indian military aviation sector.

 

[liberalredditor]

Tbh but i think they will sell them a prototype version of J-35. Most like FC-31 repackaged as J35 to keep various important technologies they have developed from getting into hand of their adversaries .

i think they will give j35 with at max j10 pro subsytems, and again they wont give it to them before their navy gets it, they will receive it by 2027 or 28. its predicted that next year or by 2027 we will have a big conflict with them, i hope they dont get any asset till then so that we can destroy them from all the sides

 

[redpanda]

i think they will give j35 with at max j10 pro subsytems, and again they wont give it to them before their navy gets it, they will receive it by 2027 or 28. its predicted that next year or by 2027 we will have a big conflict with them, i hope they dont get any asset till then so that we can destroy them from all the sides

Btw look at their J-10 timeline. They too had a lot of delays with their first moden aircraft. They were struggling to even design J-10 for like 5-6 years until they got Israeli Levi design from Israel. Then it went through a lot similar problems like how our Tejas went. Original J-10 had many foreign components mostly Russian including engine too contrary to their vision. But they eventually built their own stuff. So even the mighty China who people think epitome of efficiency when it comes to jet engineering here had these kinds of problems. When they designed their first fighter jet.

Meanwhile here on this forum as well as old DFI I have seen people doing rudali over some foreign components in Tejas. Calling it not Indian just cuz X or Y foreign component. It takes time to indigenise everything. Till then you have to manage with whatever we have. That's why I'm not really that pissed about Tejas Mk1A with Israeli suite either, because eventually we will gradually replace those with our own systems throughout the lifespan of those Tejas Mk1A. @liberalredditor

 

[liberalredditor]

Btw look at their J-10 timeline. They too had a lot of delays with their first moden aircraft. They were struggling to even design J-10 for like 5-6 years until they got Israeli Levi design from Israel. Then it went through a lot similar problems like how our Tejas went. Original J-10 had many foreign components mostly Russian including engine too contrary to their vision. But they eventually built their own stuff. So even the mighty China who people think epitome of efficiency when it comes to jet engineering here had these kinds of problems. When they designed their first fighter jet.

Meanwhile here on this forum as well as old DFI I have seen people doing rudali over some foreign components in Tejas. Calling it not India just cuz X or Y foreign component. It takes time to indigenise everything. Till then you have to manage with whatever we have. That's why I'm not really that pissed about Tejas Mk1A with Israeli suite either, because eventually we will gradually replace those with our own systems throughout the lifespan of those Tejas Mk1A.

people hate xhina, acceptable, 100% acceptable. but atleast acknowledge that they overcame all the negatives in their defence r&d and production and became a pro air force, their quantity is enough to atleast make the usaf think twice.
they started with screwdrivergiri, went ahead with stealing soviet design, then bought western design or straight away copied for example - c17, b2, mq series drones, etc, then made their own designs with electronics and mass producing it and selling the low quality shit to countries like pak and africa.

today we are safe because of tibet restriction that they cannot invade us properly. we are saved because of gods grace that he gave us such a geography and himalayas. navy is on its path to atleast match 2/3rd plan fleet numbers while iaf is on plan to meet pork air force fleet.
sad state of affairs

 

[shade2]

. Just like J-10 was their stepping stone which people used to laugh at one day, Tejas is ours. And one day it too will pave the way for Indian military aviation sector.

I'm sure no PLAAF generol every called the J-10 a 3 legged cheetah tho.
"people" laughing at it may be Goras wagera, not Chongs and definitely not decision making chings

 

[redpanda]

people hate xhina, acceptable, 100% acceptable. but atleast acknowledge that they overcame all the negatives in their defence r&d and production and became a pro air force, their quantity is enough to atleast make the usaf think twice.
they started with screwdrivergiri, went ahead with stealing soviet design, then bought western design or straight away copied for example - c17, b2, mq series drones, etc, then made their own designs with electronics and mass producing it and selling the low quality shit to countries like pak and africa.

today we are safe because of tibet restriction that they cannot invade us properly. we are saved because of gods grace that he gave us such a geography and himalayas. navy is on its path to atleast match 2/3rd plan fleet numbers while iaf is on plan to meet pork air force fleet.
sad state of affairs

Perhaps we were not as serious to match China because of that same geographical terrain. Also because after 1962 war, China wasn't really that openly aggressive towards us. That's why most of our strategy was shaped by keeping Pakistan as our main adversary until the Galwan class. If a war would had happened between China and India like 20-25 years ago, then maybe we would had shaped our strategy long time ago by thinking China as our main adversary rather secondary threat.

 

[shade2]

Meanwhile here on this forum as well as old DFI I have seen people doing rudali over some foreign components in Tejas. Calling it not Indian just cuz X or Y foreign component. It takes time to indigenise everything. Till then you have to manage with whatever we have. That's why I'm not really that pissed about Tejas Mk1A with Israeli suite either, because eventually we will gradually replace those with our own systems throughout the lifespan of those Tejas Mk1A. @liberalredditor

Modern endians you find on the internet have such a keeda of whataboutery.
They usually just happen to be import shills or congress dallas.

And it's not just Tejas, they will find flaws and shit on just about any progress India makes in any field.

 

[liberalredditor]

Perhaps we were not as serious to match China because of that same geographical terrain. Also because after 1962 war, China wasn't really that openly aggressive towards us. That's why most of our strategy was shaped by keeping Pakistan as our main adversary until the Galwan class. If a war would had happened between China and India like 20-25 years ago, then maybe we would had shaped our strategy long time ago by thinking China as our main adversary rather secondary threat.

we always do dk measuring with those lowlife inbred scums and become happy that oh we are strong, but they wont compare to xhina, coz they know its the result of their policies that we have to be compared to porks, they have aip in their subs while we are still...... 4Tr $ economy
i hope we come in a condition by 2035 that we can be compared to them

 

[Galaxy]

SU-57 better than F-22? You can't be serious. If it is so what stopped Russia from mass producing it and inducting it in greater numbers? Yes, they strapped a bunch of radars on the back and sides. Radars are Russia's strong point. Yet, it doesn't boast a AESA radar. As far as the engine goes, I wonder it's mean time between overhaul, ease of maintenance and fuel efficiency. The numbers look great on paper. Is it in mass production?

Russians normally import all electronics from China, I doubt you can claim they have great avionics in SU-57. If it is a great product Russians would have continued the program and inducted in good numbers. Yet, here we are after 15 years since it's first flight. India pulled out of the project and Russians gave up on SU-57.

The F-22 is an outdated aircraft, sure it has a fantastic RCS and radar but it has no DIRCM, no MAWS, no IRST, no HMDS, no L-band radar, limited situational awareness with one radar, no loyal wingman function and no real long range air to ground standoff munitions. On the other hand the SU-57 has all those features.

The SU-57 was also never mass produced because the Russian MOD is waiting for the improved SU-57M1 which has been in development since 2019 and should be ready in 2025. The new engine also has significantly less parts, for instance 5 less compression stages, less parts, less maintenance and more reliability. It’s also much more efficient, so no matter how you spin it the AL-51F1 is a far superior engine, lighter, more thrust, less parts, more reliability, ect.

As for Chinese electronics. Chinese chips are some of the best in the world. A lot of their chips outperform western counterparts. Russia also still gets a lot of western chips, Japanese chips and domestic chips. Chips alone also won’t guarantee great avionics if the programmer’s do a poor job.

Russia also never “gave up” on the SU-57, that is just an ignorant thing to say. Indians pulling out of the SU-57 also means little as the Indian MOD are known to have absurd expectations, plus India wanted equal development (aka wanting to redesign a lot of the aircraft) which was problematic because it would have caused the price to skyrocket plus India lacked and still lacks knowledge on modern jet engines that is why the Kavari failed and India uses old F404 engines. So what exactly would India provide that would justify 50/50? Again the Indian MOD had unrealistic expectations of HAL.

 

[redpanda]

I'm sure no PLAAF generol every called the J-10 a 3 legged cheetah tho.
"people" laughing at it may be Goras wagera, not Chongs and definitely not decision making chings

I mean even if they did. That will never come out. Any genrols who would have said something along that line would have gone missing for unknown reasons, they have that advantage we don't. Our MoD babus don't go missing for bad performance. Also PLAAF unlike our IAF had very little experience back then, so their Marshalls had very little idea about modern aircrafts, airforce doctrines, etc. Heck Chinese had to hire ex-western pilots to train PLAAF. Even today PLAAF has no war experience unlike IAF. Their last war was Vietnam irrc. And that was a whole different era.

Anyways not every IAF guy is criticising Tejas. Take Bhaduria ji for example he is literally batting for Tejas even after retirement. And even wrote against panic buying of 5th gen aircraft. There are people like him in IAF too who are pro indigenous platform. Under him IAF was fully committed to Mk1A and that's why the frustration with little progress. Delay in Mk1A isn't an IAF's fault it is the fault of MoD and HAL for not placing order for GE F404 soon enough.

 

[Galaxy]

the current su57 has a huge rcs, thanks to large airframe with negligible ram paint, exposed fan blades, a huge irst right in the front, 90 degree angle in between intake and wings, they could not even fix basic things for vlo standards. their electronics capability is doubted as they source from xhowmein land, although their aircrafts are best for airshows and acrobatics

Thanks for the laugh but you are pulling things out thin air. The vast majority of RCS is the shape of the aircraft. RAM contributes very little and the latest SU-57s are fully covered. You are referring to early PAK-FA prototypes with exposed metal engine cowlings. The fan blades are also not exposed but have radar blockers. Interesting thing was the YF-23 has visible fan blades but had a superior RCS compared to the YF-22.

As for the area between intakes and wings, it’s not 90 degrees and every aircraft such as F-22 and F35 have the same thing and it would be called a corner reflector. The honest truth is the SU-57 fuselage is not flat and it would have an additional corner reflector between the engines and weapons bays but that would spike the RCS only from certain angles from ground radar. Moreover, the new SU-57M1 under the Megapolis program is supposed to have a “wider flatter fuselage” so we will see.

As for Chinese electronics. Please stop, Chinese electronics did just fine when a J-10s blasted a Rafale out of the sky and also a few other aircraft. This arrogant attitude is what caused India to lose at least 3 aircraft. I work with semiconductors and China has chips that are as good or superior to western chips. It’s all easily found on google. Even the west consumes Chinese chips for military purposes.

 

[redpanda]

@Azaad @shade2 Looks like we have some interesting specimen on the forum.

 

[liberalredditor]

@Azaad @shade2 Looks like we have some interesting specimen on the forum.

time to call the top g, the top bully master @randombully

 

[Azaad]

As for Chinese electronics. Please stop, Chinese electronics did just fine when a J-10s blasted a Rafale out of the sky and also a few other aircraft.

Evidence ? As of now we've vague references to the losses incurred by the IAF even if there's zero information out there on what caused it . You seem to have the inside track . Do share it here to enlighten us lesser beings then .

This arrogant attitude is what caused India to lose at least 3 aircraft. I work with semiconductors and China has chips that are as good or superior to western chips. It’s all easily found on google. Even the west consumes Chinese chips for military purposes.

China has good & the most superior chips & is alternating between trying to persuade ASML to sell them state of the art EUVL systems while simultaneously stealing from them to develop their own indigenous systems & struggling at it .

West consumes Chinese chips for military purposes is all very fine but what's the application & how sensitive is the application unless you're suggesting the mission computer of the F-35 is powered by Chinese chips. What're you ? A 1 USD / post Wumao ?

 

[DancingPeacock]

Thanks for the laugh but you are pulling things out thin air. The vast majority of RCS is the shape of the aircraft. RAM contributes very little and the latest SU-57s are fully covered. You are referring to early PAK-FA prototypes with exposed metal engine cowlings. The fan blades are also not exposed but have radar blockers. Interesting thing was the YF-23 has visible fan blades but had a superior RCS compared to the YF-22.

As for the area between intakes and wings, it’s not 90 degrees and every aircraft such as F-22 and F35 have the same thing and it would be called a corner reflector. The honest truth is the SU-57 fuselage is not flat and it would have an additional corner reflector between the engines and weapons bays but that would spike the RCS only from certain angles from ground radar. Moreover, the new SU-57M1 under the Megapolis program is supposed to have a “wider flatter fuselage” so we will see.

As for Chinese electronics. Please stop, Chinese electronics did just fine when a J-10s blasted a Rafale out of the sky and also a few other aircraft. This arrogant attitude is what caused India to lose at least 3 aircraft. I work with semiconductors and China has chips that are as good or superior to western chips. It’s all easily found on google. Even the west consumes Chinese chips for military purposes.

Even a F-22 can be taken down if spammed so many missiles as wolf-pack tactics. Infact Chinese should be ashamed of their inferior products that pakis used and still couldn't prevent IAF blasting Pakis base.

As for Chips, stop bullshit. Its easy google-able my ass. China still couldn't get yield rates or nm of Samsung forget about TSMC.

 

[randombully]

time to call the top g, the top bully master @randombully

Post in thread 'US Air Force' https://defenceforumbharat.com/threads/us-air-force.469/post-173716

*****burgericunts control the narrative according to their wish, f22 isnt 5th gen i am damn sure View attachment 41725 visible screws and rust? They using iron or steel in aircraft production? F22 doesnt even have sensor fusion of eots or any advanced sensor, its at best a 4.5gen aircraft with some stealth shaping which they over hype.*****




*****It is a stealth plane its rcs is small enough to be called a stealth plane, designed with both radar based stealth and IR stealth in mind, it's also supermaneuverable along with stealth, something with f35 and j20 lacks, it can also supercruise something that f35 lacks.

But it is not as advanced as f35 in terms of avionics and sensors, even su57, early j20 varients in terms of Avionics and sensor suite, rafale f4 even f3 has more advance and more complete sensor suite than f22.

F22 in terms of avionics and sensor suite is the most outdated stealth jet in service.




Second it has quite less amount of composites than f35,su57,j20.
Even eurofighter, rafale, tejas have more amount of composite than f22.
And composites used in f35, su57,j20 are ras material, with stealth baked into the airframe material itself + additional stealth RAM coating.
F22 is majority metal with significant amount of composites, but as said before it doesn't have RAS, it depends entirely on RAM coating on its skin for its stealth, hence much more radar absorbing and heavy RAM coating is needed for f22, its RAM while pretty good at absorbing radar waves is pretty fragile, and require very frequent re-coats of RAM to maintain stealth, in lots of training exercises many f22 are not even painted with that coating hence lots of pics of its naked metal in internet.

And while f22'a rcs is said to be 0.0001m2 from frontal arc, but that's kinda bogus, it's most likely talking about it's frontal rcs " from optimal angle" or the lowest value In it's rcs range, no stealth jet has 0.0001m2 frontal median or avg rcs, you just can't have that with current stealth material tech, it will require so mach ram/ras material that aircraft will be too heavy to take off with decent payload and fuel or even too heavy to take off at all, plus boat loads of other problem that will arise.
Even j20 and even su57 has 0.0001m2 rcs from certain optimal angles.

Now, again, a jet's rcs Is not a single number or range, but to get a general gist of a stealth of a fighter jet, you can use these no. I painstakingly concluded over the years based on many simulations and other info.

Su57's " frontal rcs" ( -60° to +60°)= 0.006-0.01m2, so its fully stealth jet, well "barely" a full stealth jet.



But when it's naked irst is "working" and not closed it's rcs increase to 0.1-0.2m2, can't call it stealth with this much increase in rcs.

F22s = 0.001-0.005m2.
J20 =0.003-0.006m2.
F35= 0.0005-0.0015m2.

These are the rcs figure for frontal arc of these fighter jets.

Also note, just like there are optimal angles for where rcs can go as low as 0.0001m2, there are also angles where rcs spikes, these no. Are for general understanding of frontal stealth of these jets.

Another interesting thing.
In L band and vhf frequency su57 actually has the lowest rcs out of all the stealth jets, due to its overall slimmer profile.
But it also has the highest rcs in x band out of all the stealth jets.


If su57 had better stealth in x & S band then it could have been the best stealth fighter jet platform in the world.
It can supercruise, has supermaneuverability, big enough & high potential for future upgrades, can carry cruise missiles in its iwb, biggest iwb and biggest iwb capacity out of all the 5th gen jets, a very impressive sensor suite( everything f35 has in sensors but also
side facing and even back facing radars, dircm etc.) But individual sensors and it's architecture is not as advanced as f35, but again these can be upgraded in the future, lowest rcs out of all 5th gen jets in L and VHF band, if only it had better stealth in X band.*****

 

[liberalredditor]

Post in thread 'US Air Force' https://defenceforumbharat.com/threads/us-air-force.469/post-173716

*****burgericunts control the narrative according to their wish, f22 isnt 5th gen i am damn sure View attachment 41725 visible screws and rust? They using iron or steel in aircraft production? F22 doesnt even have sensor fusion of eots or any advanced sensor, its at best a 4.5gen aircraft with some stealth shaping which they over hype.*****




*****It is a stealth plane its rcs is small enough to be called a stealth plane, designed with both radar based stealth and IR stealth in mind, it's also supermaneuverable along with stealth, something with f35 and j20 lacks, it can also supercruise something that f35 lacks.

But it is not as advanced as f35 in terms of avionics and sensors, even su57, early j20 varients in terms of Avionics and sensor suite, rafale f4 even f3 has more advance and more complete sensor suite than f22.

F22 in terms of avionics and sensor suite is the most outdated stealth jet in service.




Second it has quite less amount of composites than f35,su57,j20.
Even eurofighter, rafale, tejas have more amount of composite than f22.
And composites used in f35, su57,j20 are ras material, with stealth baked into the airframe material itself + additional stealth RAM coating.
F22 is majority metal with significant amount of composites, but as said before it doesn't have RAS, it depends entirely on RAM coating on its skin for its stealth, hence much more radar absorbing and heavy RAM coating is needed for f22, its RAM while pretty good at absorbing radar waves is pretty fragile, and require very frequent re-coats of RAM to maintain stealth, in lots of training exercises many f22 are not even painted with that coating hence lots of pics of its naked metal in internet.

And while f22'a rcs is said to be 0.0001m2 from frontal arc, but that's kinda bogus, it's most likely talking about it's frontal rcs " from optimal angle" or the lowest value In it's rcs range, no stealth jet has 0.0001m2 frontal median or avg rcs, you just can't have that with current stealth material tech, it will require so mach ram/ras material that aircraft will be too heavy to take off with decent payload and fuel or even too heavy to take off at all, plus boat loads of other problem that will arise.
Even j20 and even su57 has 0.0001m2 rcs from certain optimal angles.

Now, again, a jet's rcs Is not a single number or range, but to get a general gist of a stealth of a fighter jet, you can use these no. I painstakingly concluded over the years based on many simulations and other info.

Su57's " frontal rcs" ( -60° to +60°)= 0.006-0.01m2, so its fully stealth jet, well "barely" a full stealth jet.



But when it's naked irst is "working" and not closed it's rcs increase to 0.1-0.2m2, can't call it stealth with this much increase in rcs.

F22s = 0.001-0.005m2.
J20 =0.003-0.006m2.
F35= 0.0005-0.0015m2.

These are the rcs figure for frontal arc of these fighter jets.

Also note, just like there are optimal angles for where rcs can go as low as 0.0001m2, there are also angles where rcs spikes, these no. Are for general understanding of frontal stealth of these jets.

Another interesting thing.
In L band and vhf frequency su57 actually has the lowest rcs out of all the stealth jets, due to its overall slimmer profile.
But it also has the highest rcs in x band out of all the stealth jets.


If su57 had better stealth in x & S band then it could have been the best stealth fighter jet platform in the world.
It can supercruise, has supermaneuverability, big enough & high potential for future upgrades, can carry cruise missiles in its iwb, biggest iwb and biggest iwb capacity out of all the 5th gen jets, a very impressive sensor suite( everything f35 has in sensors but also
side facing and even back facing radars, dircm etc.) But individual sensors and it's architecture is not as advanced as f35, but again these can be upgraded in the future, lowest rcs out of all 5th gen jets in L and VHF band, if only it had better stealth in X band.*****

aapne to mujhe hi bully kar diya

 

[Galaxy]

Even a F-22 can be taken down if spammed so many missiles as wolf-pack tactics. Infact Chinese should be ashamed of their inferior products that pakis used and still couldn't prevent IAF blasting Pakis base.

As for Chips, stop bullshit. Its easy google-able my ass. China still couldn't get yield rates or nm of Samsung forget about TSMC.

Like I said I work with semiconductors. We get regular briefings on competitors including in China, and a least one of our engineers was secretly working for China so the Chinese have very advanced ships. Huwawei makes the ascend 910c/910d 7nm chips and they are already made a 1nm chip which surpasses both TSMC and Intel. You claiming Chinese chips suck is just a biased opinion. Chinese chips are found in western military hardware and Hewaei is such a threat that the west has been trying to kill it with sanctions for years. In the same way the US and the west have been trying to kill the Russian arms industry for years by threatening India, Turkey, Egypt, ect not to buy Russian equipment even before 2022.

Not sure why you are also in such denial. A J-10 clearly shot down a Rafale, not saying Rafale is bad or India pilots were bad but that the J-10B and PL-15E were much better then what Indians expected, suck it up and stop making excuses. India hitting Pakistan military targets does not mean Chinese air defenses were bad, any air defense can be overwhelmed, it could also be poor planning on the part of Pakistan such as not enough air defenses in a sector or not enough ammunition to replenish spent missiles, ect. Plus India used some very advanced systems so your point is mute.