DRDO & PSUs (26 Viewers)

[randombully]

Unpopular opinion - VSHORADS in its present avatar is not a viable option for a Sea-RAM system. We need something like a modified Python-V/ ASRAAM for this.

Subsonic threats still exist on ocean.
Subsonic sea skimming cruise missiles, drones etc.
Infact with the adevant of drones, no. Subsonic threat will increase a lot.
Specially by pakistan, which can't afford large no. Of more potent supersonic anti ship missiles.

Cases like, small fast boats, carring kamikaze drones, using curvature of earth gettimg close to the ship and launch the drones are possible.
A cheap solution like vshorad adds another layer of point defense( along with oto melra and upgraded ak630)against those.

 

[BHARAT KA BETA]

Sea ram missile,
range:-~10km.
Weight:-~ 73kg.
Warhead :- ~10kg
Top speed:- Mach 2+.
Designed specially as a point defense against incoming missiles, including supersonic missiles.


Drdo VSHORAD
Range ~6km.
Weight~20kg.
Warhead~2 kg.
Top speed~ mach 1.5
Designed mainly to be used against subsonic targets.

Naval VSHORAD is comparable French naval mistral missile.
But even then mistral has max speed of Mach ~2.7

Sea RAM is much bigger system in comparison to VSHORAD... Not comparable.

 

[Blood+]

Subsonic threats still exist on ocean.
Subsonic sea skimming cruise missiles, drones etc.
Infact with the adevant of drones, no. Subsonic threat will increase a lot.
Specially by pakistan, which can't afford large no. Of more potent supersonic anti ship missiles.

Cases like, small fast boats, carring kamikaze drones, using curvature of earth gettimg close to the ship and launch the drones are possible.
A cheap solution like vshorad adds another layer of point defense( along with oto melra and upgraded ak630)against those.

Barring the subsonic AShMs, every other threat in that list can be handled by autocanons with air-burst ammo.

 

[randombully]

Barring the subsonic AShMs, every other threat in that list can be handled by autocanons with air-burst ammo.

More layers are always better.

Even on land, we are not just relying on updated bofors Anti air gun with radar and fcs.
But also working on.

Bhargavastra (counter drone system) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Plus ak630 on our ships have Effective range between 2-3km.
Drdo vshorad has 6km max range.
So it adds another layer, a more longer layer of point defense than ak630.

But I'm not against the idea of more anti air auto cannons on ship too.
Oto melara 76mm being put on our modern ships is already designed to engaged subsonic targets, and some effectiveness against low supersonic targets too.
Another 30-50mm one to compliment it, won't be a bad idea.

Also the vshorad launchers takes quite less space compared to auto cannons.
And quite easier to add on superstructure of ships.

 

[liberalredditor]

You don't.

Effective ranges( 50% or higher kill probability)are always less than max ranges.
And that too for incoming fighter jets head on.
If enemy fighter is running way, the Effective range of missile becomes even less.
Plus altitudes at which missile is launch also affects very much.
Max ranges, are calculated at optimal altitude 40k+ feet and at high subsonic launch speed.
With a even higher altitude and launching at supersonic speeds, range can be further increased, more than on paper max ranges.

PL15e with max 145km range, will have Effective range of 100-120km.

Aim 120d with max range of 160+ km, will have Effective range 120-140km.

From latest info, from drdo's posters.
Astra mk2 have max range of 160km.
Astra mk1 have max range of 110km.


Ps:- Another advantage of higher max range is, even if kill probability is low, when missile is launched at a distance near it's max range, it still forces the enemy jet to go on defensive and retreat and in many cases abandon the assigned mission

drdo has a habit of quoting shorter ranges like in agni series. i suspect that mk1 would have max range close to 130 and mk2 has close to 200 km. but they explicitly said that new much more energy dense propellant grain was developed which is smokeless

 

[randombully]

drdo has a habit of quoting shorter ranges like in agni series. i suspect that mk1 would have max range close to 130 and mk2 has close to 200 km. but they explicitly said that new much more energy dense propellant grain was developed which is smokeless

1,Those are stratigic systems.

2, for tactical/conventional systems, drdo atleast in developmental stages quote conservative estimates/ effective range/operationally optimised range.

And drdo quoted 130km range of astra mk2 during trails.
In latest poster they quoted range of 160km.

For astra mk1, drdo initially quoted 90km range.
Then increased it to 110km range.

 

[liberalredditor]

pls tell me that gandiva isnt designed for slow targets like aewacs, refuellers but rather fast targets like fighters.
even drdo started to blackpill

 

[randombully]

pls tell me that gandiva isnt designed for slow targets like aewacs, refuellers but rather fast targets like fighters.
even drdo started to blackpill

It can take on both.

 

[liberalredditor]

It can take on both.

you saved my whole week sir, else i would have become the most depressed fellow on this forum

 

[liberalredditor]

the istar got approved, what happened to the comjam sigint aircraft project? any tender on the subsystems or aircraft procurement

 

[randombully]

you saved my whole week sir, else i would have become the most depressed fellow on this forum

Depression is the norm for an "Indian defense" enthusiast/nerd, with brief moments of hope.

 

[liberalredditor]

Depression is the norm for an "Indian defense" enthusiast/nerd, with brief moments of hope.

idrw was the goat in saving everyone from mental illness back in 2022-23, they used to post "updates on prototype" every day, their timeline was fixed, prototype rollout withing 6months-1 year, and some source from drdo/hal who didnt wanted to be named

 

[Blood+]

pls tell me that gandiva isnt designed for slow targets like aewacs, refuellers but rather fast targets like fighters.
even drdo started to blackpill

Gandiva isn't designed for slow targets like aewacs, refuellers, but rather fast targets like fighters.

 

[Blood+]

More layers are always better.

Even on land, we are not just relying on updated bofors Anti air gun with radar and fcs.
But also working on.

Bhargavastra (counter drone system) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Plus ak630 on our ships have Effective range between 2-3km.
Drdo vshorad has 6km max range.
So it adds another layer, a more longer layer of point defense than ak630.

But I'm not against the idea of more anti air auto cannons on ship too.
Oto melara 76mm being put on our modern ships is already designed to engaged subsonic targets, and some effectiveness against low supersonic targets too.
Another 30-50mm one to compliment it, won't be a bad idea.

Also the vshorad launchers takes quite less space compared to auto cannons.
And quite easier to add on superstructure of ships.

True, but why waste even that bit of deck space when we can instead mount a proper SeaRAM there based around the NGCCM, which we'll be producing under license anyway??

 

[randombully]

True, but why waste even that bit of deck space when we can instead mount a proper SeaRAM there based around the NGCCM, which we'll be producing under license anyway??

Because "proper Sea ram" missiles will be more expensive.
And we're mainly facing Pakistani navy, we're not facing chinese naval threat in IOR within this decade.
Navy itself didn't assign drdo to develop proper Sea ram Type missile, as it didn't felt the need currently, vshorad are already developed and quite cheap, plus as said before pak if they have normal human level cognitive intelligence within their naval ranks, will use large no. of slow long range strike drones or subsonic cruise missiles given its lack of ability to financially afford high end ashm's.
So vshorad are more like a nice bonus, rather than a important need.

You have to remember, we need to prepare to face our "threats", right now we don't need USN level airdefense systems, we will in future in 2030's, and development for them has already Began.

 

[Blood+]

Because "proper Sea ram" missiles will be more expensive.
And we're mainly facing Pakistani navy, we're not facing chinese naval threat in IOR within this decade.
Navy itself didn't assign drdo to develop proper Sea ram Type missile, as it didn't felt the need currently, vshorad are already developed and quite cheap, plus as said before pak if they have normal human level cognitive intelligence within their naval ranks, will use large no. of slow long range strike drones or subsonic cruise missiles given its lack of ability to financially afford high end ashm's.
So vshorad are more like a nice bonus, rather than a important need.

You have to remember, we need to prepare to face our "threats", right now we don't need USN level airdefense systems, we will in future in 2030's, and development for them has already Began.

I get where you're coming from, but as far as I'm concerned, if the Navy has the funds for such eyewateringly expensive missiles like BrahMos and Barak 8s, then I'm sure they can manage a few dozen ASRAAMs per ship as well.

 

[randombully]

I get where you're coming from, but as far as I'm concerned, if the Navy has the funds for such eyewateringly expensive missiles like BrahMos and Barak 8s, then I'm sure they can manage a few dozen ASRAAMs per ship as well.

are there to take down ships worth 100s of millions of dollars.
Barak 8 is there to take down missiles worth millions.

Vshorad or naval asraam if used, will be mostly used against subsonic threats.
So why use 200k-300k asraam when 50k drdo vshorad does the job?
Plus extra cost of developing a naval varient and testing it?
We can look for naval varient of asraam like missiles in 2030s.
Also we already have older Barak 1 operational on lot of our ships as point defense missile, with range between 0.5 to 12km.
Barak 8 also has minimum range of 0.5kms.

So within this decade In a "rare" case we need to defend against a supersonic missile in point defense range, barak 1 & 8 are there.

 

[neelaslayer]

Gandiva isn't designed for slow targets like aewacs, refuellers, but rather fast targets like fighters.

For slow targets batl proposed brahmos ng air to air version.

 

[Blood+]

are there to take down ships worth 100s of millions of dollars.
Barak 8 is there to take down missiles worth millions.

Vshorad or naval asraam if used, will be mostly used against subsonic threats.
So why use 200k-300k asraam when 50k drdo vshorad does the job?
Plus extra cost of developing a naval varient and testing it?
We can look for naval varient of asraam like missiles in 2030s.
Also we already have older Barak 1 operational on lot of our ships as point defense missile, with range between 0.5 to 12km.
Barak 8 also has minimum range of 0.5kms.

So within this decade In a "rare" case we need to defend against a supersonic missile in point defense range, barak 1 & 8 are there.

You do not know that for certain, though.

 

[randombully]

You do not know that for certain, though.

My guy, we have delays in submarine programs.
Delays in amca, tejas mk2 program, tejasmk1a program.
Delays in tank,ifv program.

And these Delays are when we can't say for certain than we won't have a war with China in near future.

Not having sea ram type missile, is quite low on that list, when again navy didn't "felt" the need for this type of missile yet, navy did " felt" the need to counter subsonic drones.

And as said before barak 1 and even barak 8, fulfills point defense role too to a significant extent, it's a more expensive missile, but as said those cases would be "rare".

We can think about developing sea ram type missile in late 2020s to be operational In 2030s.