AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Azaad]

Keep laughing at your enemy (Chinese) while they outshine you everyday. This is for our jingoistic Indians who cant see the big picture.

Please share with us the tech data sheet of any Chinese Fighter Aircraft or Turbo Fan. I've posed this question across media over the years & I've yet to come across one nor is any displayed on the website of the organizations mfg them or in a forum like the SDF which you won't see even with the Russians which brings me to another important point.

PAF has been flying the JF-17 since 2009 & are about to induct the Block 4 in a few years yet in spite of the Chinese repeatedly offering to fit it with their analogue of the RD-33 / RD-93 (which in itself is a problematic TF ) , the WS-13 , in the previous Blocks , the PAF hasn't consented to it preferring to go in with the Russian TF . Why do you think this is the case ? Reports indicate that the newly constructed WS-19 now powering the FC-31 / J-35 will probably go into the Block 4 . However we've no confirmation regarding it.

Let's come to the J-10 . Up until the late 2010s they were powered by a variant of the Al-31 . The WS-10B has only been recently fitted onto it , as late as 2018 & apparently this is what the J-10 supplied to Paxtan are equipped with .

Long short story we don't know the MTBO or their TTSL of a single Chinese TF or for that matter the tech specs of any of their avionics ,radars , the FAs itself or any other major or minor component / sub component or sub assembly . If you do come across any such data , kindly share it here . I'd love to read about it as I'm sure the dozens of members & guests who frequent this forum.

OTOH you'd come across plenty of articles on cracks found on the JF-17 airframes , repeated grounding of these planes , poor performance standards & complaints regarding it from the countries they were exported to like Myanmar , Nigeria etc. PAF recently retired the Y-8 AEW planes they bought from China around a decade choosing to replace it with the SAAB Erieye.

Does that mean the Chinese are faking it ? Not at all . They've racked up some impressive achievements in this field by throwing money , reverse engineering , espionage , copying , you name it & the results are out there but do remember the old adage - All that glitter isn't gold.

 

[helin]

What's the dry thrust?
What's the max thrust? 90kn? 110kn?

This is said to be the speech of ws19 chief designer Huang Weina at the 2022 China Aviation Propulsion Technology Forum held in Guiyang on December 8 to 9, 2022.

 

[randombully]

Apparently F/A-XX won't use adaptive cycle engines either in order to keep the program separate from NGAD and keep costs lower. If F/A-XX is supposedly a 6th generation platform, and the USA, the leader of aerospace science doesn't fit ACE onto it, what exactly defines 6th gen?

I don't think other aerospace programs are on topic with the AMCA thread, AMCA will use 5th generation engines and that will put it on par with the modern aircraft currently in service now. Arguing semantics of what engines may be equipped on future fighters that we know little about is pointless as is.

Again as I said before
Adaptive cycle engines, are nothing but a power source.
If you can fulfill the power, thrust, range, endurance, speed requirements without using adaptive cycle engine, then you don't need them, the only advantage they will provide in this case will be more efficiency, but at the same more expensive and complex.

 

[randombully]

This is said to be the speech of ws19 chief designer Huang Weina at the 2022 China Aviation Propulsion Technology Forum held in Guiyang on December 8 to 9, 2022.

View attachment 23948


View attachment 23947

Is wsx9 the ws19 engine?
In that case it seems to be in same class as f414, a 4th gen engine in 100kn class.

 

[TopWatcher]

Keep laughing at your enemy (Chinese) while they outshine you everyday. This is for our jingoistic Indians who cant see the big picture.

We are the biggest fool on earth, that we cant even reverse engineer sukoi engine which inhouse manufactured by HAL for so many years. Imagine how much time had, for so many years HAL manufacturing engine but cant do reverse engineer.

2500/- ladli bhen yogna

 

[randombully]

We are the biggest fool on earth, that we cant even reverse engineer sukoi engine which inhouse manufactured by HAL for so many years. Imagine how much time had, for so many years HAL manufacturing engine but cant do reverse engineer.

2500/- ladli bhen yogna

They can.
But it's an old engine, has to opened up completely for major refurbishment every 1000hours, won't last more than 4000hours, power to weight ratio(dry) of al31 of su 30mki is "5.27:1"
For example Kaveri if we take with 48kn max dry thrust than it's 6.3:1, if we take 52kn, then it's 6.9:1.
We have already surpassed that engine.
Infact our su30mki is like chinese j11( actually more indenized that earlier varients of j11), so just like china we can if we want to change the name of su30mki can call it an Indian jet made on licensed design.
As for the al31, only raw materials come from Russia, that too due to contract, we are self sufficient in that engine, we can if we want change the source of raw materials in case russia cant supply it, but it will take some time.

The problem is not that we cant make workable jet engines, the problems is that the jet engines we make has to be competitive or atleast close to it's current class counterpart.
I

 

[BON PLAN]

Turkey is going with France for the FCAS program.


https://www.turkiyetoday.com/turkiye/turkiye-expresses-interest-in-future-combat-air-system-french-senate-report-114320/#:~:text=T%C3%BCrkiye's%20interest%20in%20SCAF%20comes,than%20continue%20Franco%2DBritish%20cooperation.


View: https://x.com/Defence_Turk/status/1886008962589352290?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1886008962589352290%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

India is collaborating with France for the 5th generation engine for AMCA and Safran has already established a plan to open a facility to design said engine.


https://theprint.in/defence/frances...ighter-amca-expands-india-operations/2312842/

Are we designing the new engine for Turkey's jets under FCAS?

Sure not.
The political tie between France and Turkey are all but not good, so at best I see an observatory role, but nothing strong in the R&D phase.

 

[BON PLAN]

From what I know, the engine for amca will be a 5th gen one, like f35.
Not a adaptive cycle one.
Now about fcas, even design is not finalised so can't say what engine it will feature.

Though high chance France would want Turkey to be a partner both for funding reason and production no. Reason, but "germany" may object.
Also can guarantee chinese 6th gen will enter service before fcas and even gcap will.

For engine the Safran cea spoke about adaptative cycle for years. It may be an indian technological contribution (???).

Turkey is not a close ally of France, far from that. So I think it is a fake news, to test the market... as the purchase of EF2000....
At best they will have a role as observatory. It is already too difficult to work at three, not to have another difficult and not technically very skilled partner more.

 

[BON PLAN]

View attachment 23915
Why are they calling this a 6th-gen jet? Adaptive cycle engines are what truly set 6th-gen apart from 5th-gen, and during its first flight, it was clearly using a regular engine—you can tell from the smoke trail it left behind.

A singe pic is not enough to be sure. The engine may be in a regime change, so with more smoke...

But we all know than chinese jet engine mastership is not very strong and reliable. They are just able to copy and paste russian engines, with less life than these original ones, themselves with less life than west engine, so maybe far from a 6th gen engine.
But china is impressive these last years, so they may be far more advanced than intended.

 

[BON PLAN]

It's a 6th gen "airframe".
And I expect these(especially larger j36) to enter service around 2035.
By that time all the "future" 6th gen tech will developed by china( engine could be exception, don't know if they can develop them by 2035 but work on chinese adaptive cycle engine has begun , but again if they can still get enough thrust and power from current 3 engine set ups to fulfill future needs then good enough).

Engines are just a component, a powersource.
Why do you need adaptive cycle engine? It's not just adaptive cycle, these engines are highly efficient and powerful for their size, the adaptive cycle of the engine helps redistribute power at lower speeds to power electronics also to operate more efficiently at lower speeds, and then Change the cycle to prioritise thrust for higher speeds.
But what if you can get enough thrust and electrical power while fulfilling range and endurance from the current set up already?

engine is a key component, as radar.
It takes at least ten years to study and produce an engine, as a radar, when a new jet frame can be made in 4 years (ex : Rafale A).
world class jet engine is among the more complexe object built so far.

 

[shade2]

Sure not.
The political tie between France and Turkey are all but not good, so at best I see an observatory role, but nothing strong in the R&D phase.

For engine the Safran cea spoke about adaptative cycle for years. It may be an indian technological contribution (???).

Turkey is not a close ally of France, far from that. So I think it is a fake news, to test the market... as the purchase of EF2000....
At best they will have a role as observatory. It is already too difficult to work at three, not to have another difficult and not technically very skilled partner more.

Turks seem to be following the Indonesian model of being everywhere

Indonesians say they will buy Rafale, F-15, KF-21( including co-development ), ofc they are serious only about one

In a similar vein the Turks already have their Kaan program yet they want to join FCAS, their goal seems to be acquiring technology but without funding they can't access that, even with equal funding of the program it is not guaranteed

 

[BON PLAN]

Turks seem to be following the Indonesian model of being everywhere

Indonesians say they will buy Rafale, F-15, KF-21( including co-development ), ofc they are serious only about one

In a similar vein the Turks already have their Kaan program yet they want to join FCAS, their goal seems to be acquiring technology but without funding they can't access that, even with equal funding of the program it is not guaranteed

Why be interesting in FCAS when you have a Kaan ? If Kaan is a success, they can easily built a 6th gen bird.

They just whant to "stole" some technology, as engine.

Just my opinion.

 

[randombully]

engine is a key component, as radar.
It takes at least ten years to study and produce an engine, as a radar, when a new jet frame can be made in 4 years (ex : Rafale A).
world class jet engine is among the more complexe object built so far.

Engine is a "power source".
As said before, if you can fulfill the electrical power, thrust, range, endurance, speed, life cycle of engine( lets 5500- 6000 hours)etc requirements by using 3 less advanced 4/5 gen engines, than you Don't need 2 more advanced 6th gen adaptive cycle engines, they will still be more efficient, but that's the only extra desirable benefit they can give.

 

[randombully]

For engine the Safran cea spoke about adaptative cycle for years. It may be an indian technological contribution (???).

Turkey is not a close ally of France, far from that. So I think it is a fake news, to test the market... as the purchase of EF2000....
At best they will have a role as observatory. It is already too difficult to work at three, not to have another difficult and not technically very skilled partner more.

Saurabh Jha on Twitter, said the engine for amca that will come out of jv will be a 5+gen one like f135 of f-35, not a adaptive cycle one.

 

[BON PLAN]

Engine is a "power source".
As said before, if you can fulfill the electrical power, thrust, range, endurance, speed, life cycle of engine( lets 5500- 6000 hours)etc requirements by using 3 less advanced 4/5 gen engines, than you Don't need 2 more advanced 6th gen adaptive cycle engines, they will still be more efficient, but that's the only extra desirable benefit they can give.

Power generation is the second use of the engine. Main is thrust.
Every new engine generation is less fuel greedy, less weighty, so it give more range and/or more power.

See B52 : fitted with 4 'new' gen engines instead of 8 old one it can have a far more range or load or mix of the two.

So it's unclever to developp a next gen fighter with a older gen engine. At least for those who have the proper engine technology, and they are very few on earth. China real level is unknown.

 

[BON PLAN]

Saurabh Jha on Twitter, said the engine for amca that will come out of jv will be a 5+gen one like f135 of f-35, not a adaptive cycle one.

AMCA is in a advanced stage of R&D, so probably need a mature engine so as not to slow down the whole project.
A newer engine, with adaptative cyle, may be fitted later, during a MLU....

FCAS is expected for 2045. the prototyp (if really made) is to be powered with a M88 derivative, but the final engine will be far more advanced, so with adaptative cycle.

 

[randombully]

Power generation is the second use of the engine. Main is thrust.
Every new engine generation is less fuel greedy, less weighty, so it give more range and/or more power.

See B52 : fitted with 4 'new' gen engines instead of 8 old one it can have a far more range or load or mix of the two.

So it's unclever to developp a next gen fighter with a older gen engine. At least for those who have the proper engine technology, and they are very few on earth. China real level is unknown.

"Every new engine generation is less fuel greedy, less weighty, so it give more range and/or more power."

Look you you didn't understand, what if you don't need "more range", "more thrust" "more power".
Let's say you develop a fighter and parameters are "x km range" "y thrust to weight ratio" "Z electrical power".
If the use of 3 4th/5th gen can fulfill the x,y,z criteria than the only "desirable" advantage 6th gen adaptivecycle engine will have is "fuel efficiency" but at the same time more expensive,complex, maintenance.

now it will also give more range( but you don't need it), better thrust to weight( Don't need it).
Making a engine a bench mark of generation, just for the sake of engine is wrong, much better is to set parameters for performance(both physical and electronic, stealth)of a jet for 6th gen and see if it can match it.
Most countries set to meet those parameters by using next gen engines, china decided to met most of them( except efficiency) using 3 non-adaptive ones right now.

 

[randombully]

AMCA is in a advanced stage of R&D, so probably need a mature engine so as not to slow down the whole project.
A newer engine, with adaptative cyle, may be fitted later, during a MLU....

FCAS is expected for 2045. the prototyp (if really made) is to be powered with a M88 derivative, but the final engine will be far more advanced, so with adaptative cycle.

What if the 5+gen future engine of amca provides it with more than enough electrical power it will need for all future needs, enough thrust to supercruise at mach 1.4-1.6 with internal payload and desirable range? If those engines can't provide these then the case for engines that are even more efficient, powerful And with adaptive cycle is made.

From what I know, f35's f135 has "left" out electrical power even with blk 4 upgrades, and they are not planning to change to adaptive cycle ones for f35, they are planning to only change the core of f135 and they believe it will enough for "6th" additional capabilities( not the physical ones, like supercruise) that will be added in future.

Similarly there is news, that US navy is also planning to go without adaptive cycle engines for their fa-xx program.

 

[BON PLAN]

"Every new engine generation is less fuel greedy, less weighty, so it give more range and/or more power."

Look you you didn't understand, what if you don't need "more range", "more thrust" "more power".
Let's say you develop a fighter and parameters are "x km range" "y thrust to weight ratio" "Z electrical power".
If the use of 3 4th/5th gen can fulfill the x,y,z criteria than the only "desirable" advantage 6th gen adaptivecycle engine will have is "fuel efficiency" but at the same time more expensive,complex, maintenance.

now it will also give more range( but you don't need it), better thrust to weight( Don't need it).
Making a engine a bench mark of generation, just for the sake of engine is wrong, much better is to set parameters for performance(both physical and electronic, stealth)of a jet for 6th gen and see if it can match it.
Most countries set to meet those parameters by using next gen engines, china decided to met most of them( except efficiency) using 3 non-adaptive ones right now.

more fuel greedy engines = more range= less use of tankers = less logistic impact.
more fuel greedy engines = smaller bird = more stealthy = more survivability.
more fuel greedy engines = less costly to operate (once paid the jet purchase price, higher).
etc...

Same can be said about liners. An A320 NEO is costlier than an A320 CEO, but CEO will soon no more been product.

 

[randombully]

more fuel greedy engines = more range= less use of tankers = less logistic impact.
more fuel greedy engines = smaller bird = more stealthy = more survivability.
more fuel greedy engines = less costly to operate (once paid the jet purchase price, higher).
etc...

Same can be said about liners. An A320 NEO is costlier than an A320 CEO, but CEO will soon no more been product.

Efficiency is the main thing of "civilian" engine, we're talking military here.

Smaller bird also means smaller internal weapons bay size and smaller lift generation which means reduction in payload weight.

Again range ain't gonna be a issue for j36, and as said before if "desired range" is already achieved then the extra range while a bonus is not a necessity.

" less costly to operate"- indeed efficiency increase will decrease fuel consumption, but that's the "only desirable" trait chinese j36 lacks.
And efficiency increase while desirable is not a important parameter.

I'm not saying 6th gen adaptive cycle won't be better, I'm saying they a not a "generational" necessity