ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Bhartiya Sainik]

vise UN General from Import AF

Who? It's ok, you can use real names.

blame HAL to select GE 404 engine for Tejas MK1a. It's IAF which selected the engine.

We common citizens don't know where bottleneck happens - GoI, MoD, IAF, ADA/NAL, HAL, DRDO, etc. Hence best is to use most generic way - GoI/DoD, ultimately result matters to tax payers.

 

[Azaad]

Is it possible to make 83 + 97 = 180 Mk1A before that?

I am afraid Mk2 production will be further than that.

straight answer no

Mass production of Mk-2 will succeed Mk-1a . It won't run concurrently . Only LSP of Mk-2 will run concurrently to mass production of the 2nd batch of Mk-1a.

As of now mass production of Mk-2 is expected to commence in 2032-33. There's adequate time to execute mass production of both batches of Mk-1a in spite of the delay in delivery of the GE F-404 TFs given the capacity creation by HAL.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Mass production of Mk-2 will succeed Mk-1a . It won't run concurrently . Only LSP of Mk-2 will run concurrently to mass production of the 2nd batch of Mk-1a.

As of now mass production of Mk-2 is expected to commence in 2032-33. There's adequate time to execute mass production of both batches of Mk-1a in spite of the delay in delivery of the GE F-404 TFs given the capacity creation by HAL.

If HAL should find export customers for Mk1A, how can the start of Mk2 production be planned with confidence? Similarly, Mk2 production cannot be planned with confidence if it is subject to any delays in Mk1A production having a knock on effect on Mk2 production.

It would be better to switch Nashik to Mk2 assembly once Mk2 reaches production-ready status, wouldn't it? Cross-train Mk1A assemblers onto Mk2 in advance to avoid delay in switching to Mk2 assembly.

Mk2 is a replacement for Jaguar, M2K and MiG-29. Mk1A is not. IMO Mk2 production should take priority over Mk1A production.

GE is an unreliable supplier. Even if it started delivering 20 engines a year from today, HAL would not produce 200 Mk1A in time for HAL to start Mk2 assembly 2032-2033. You don't have to be a business genius to foresee problems with planning to complete Mk1A production before starting Mk2 production. Doing that will very likely lead to a delay in Mk2 production.

Of course, if HAL has reason to believe that Mk2 will not be tested, certified and ready for production by 2032 that changes the risk assessment.

 

[Pundit Pikachu]

Time to seethe and cope my friends.

• Blame ADA for completing CDR by Nov 21 instead of the the year desired 2020.
• Blame MoD for not granting CCS sanction even though the file was literally collecting dust on their desks for nearly a 1 year even after the completing the CDR
• Blame Babus for their out of this world logic of delaying such time sensitive critical project for over a year and a half by not releasing the CCS funds for prototyping all because they wanted a better deal from the Americans

Not to mention we all know just how *ahem* skilled ADA and HAL are in rapid prototyping and testing.
otherwise why would they suggest they can complete the testing of the jet in just 3 years, clearly they know something that other Aerospace companies don't

God knows how many more delays will this project face,
Maybe I am not destined to see this place fly in its full glory in this lifetime

 

[Spitfire IX]

View attachment 6150
Time to seethe and cope my friends.

• Blame ADA for completing CDR by Nov 21 instead of the the year desired 2020.
• Blame MoD for not granting CCS sanction even though the file was literally collecting dust on their desks for nearly a 1 year even after the completing the CDR
• Blame Babus for their out of this world logic of delaying such time sensitive critical project for over a year and a half by not releasing the CCS funds for prototyping all because they wanted a better deal from the Americans

Not to mention we all know just how *ahem* skilled ADA and HAL are in rapid prototyping and testing.
otherwise why would they suggest they can complete the testing of the jet in just 3 years, clearly they know something that other Aerospace companies don't

God knows how many more delays will this project face,
Maybe I am not destined to see this place fly in its full glory in this lifetime

 

[SlayingHell]

Who? It's ok, you can use real names.


We common citizens don't know where bottleneck happens - GoI, MoD, IAF, ADA/NAL, HAL, DRDO, etc. Hence best is to use most generic way - GoI/DoD, ultimately result matters to tax payers.

Why isn't there a fucking DAPA/ATLA like Agency to coordinate all this shit. Just look at how efficient Koreans and Japanese became regarding Weapons Development-Procurement and all that.

 

[Spitfire IX]

View attachment 6150
Time to seethe and cope my friends.

• Blame ADA for completing CDR by Nov 21 instead of the the year desired 2020.
• Blame MoD for not granting CCS sanction even though the file was literally collecting dust on their desks for nearly a 1 year even after the completing the CDR
• Blame Babus for their out of this world logic of delaying such time sensitive critical project for over a year and a half by not releasing the CCS funds for prototyping all because they wanted a better deal from the Americans

Not to mention we all know just how *ahem* skilled ADA and HAL are in rapid prototyping and testing.
otherwise why would they suggest they can complete the testing of the jet in just 3 years, clearly they know something that other Aerospace companies don't

God knows how many more delays will this project face,
Maybe I am not destined to see this place fly in its full glory in this lifetime

DRDO says FF Q1 2026. Any reason why it should take more than 36 months to reach certification?
What happens after that? Is the sequence along these lines - correct me if wrong

IAF approval needed? = time taken
GOI places order for aircraft?= time taken
Components ordered? = time taken
HAL sets up for production? = time taken
Components produced = time taken
First production aircraft assembled = time taken
Pre-delivery testing = time taken

First aircraft delivered 4-5 years after certification? Say 2033-2034?

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

View: https://x.com/VinodDX9/status/1822666788884078613

So thinds are much clear 2032 would be time 180 mk1a are done
If mk2 production start in 2029 it would be in a separate assembly line as mk1a would still be rolling on their assembly lines

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

Between good discussions some gyaani appears (in twitter mostly they are omnipresent)

View: https://x.com/August1stbayi/status/1822674839062388789

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Why isn't there a fucking DAPA/ATLA like Agency to coordinate all this shit. Just look at how efficient Koreans and Japanese became regarding Weapons Development-Procurement and all that.

IDK
Different countries, different geography, culture, geopolitics, requirement, industries, different structure.

​

 

[Azaad]

If HAL should find export customers for Mk1A, how can the start of Mk2 production be planned with confidence? Similarly, Mk2 production cannot be planned with confidence if it is subject to any delays in Mk1A production having a knock on effect on Mk2 production.

Right now the priority is to fulfill our needs. Besides I don't think we'd be exporting the Mk-1a so soon , at least not unless they've been flying with us for a good 4-5 years which in turn means we'd complete production of the first lot of 73 nos by then .

Mk-2 MASS production is expected to commence by 2032-33 by which time we should execute the entire production order of 73+97 nos Mk-1a alongside the trainers.

It would be better to switch Nashik to Mk2 assembly once Mk2 reaches production-ready status, wouldn't it? Cross-train Mk1A assemblers onto Mk2 in advance to avoid delay in switching to Mk2 assembly.

All 3 production lines including Nashik are expected to deliver 23-26 nos Mk-1a in about 2 years from now , likely less than that time schedule.

Mk2 is a replacement for Jaguar, M2K and MiG-29. Mk1A is not. IMO Mk2 production should take priority over Mk1A production.

The schedule has ALWAYS been thus -> Mk-1 -> Mk-1a -> Mk-2 -> AMCA Mk-1 -> AMCA Mk-2 . In between the 2 AMCA's we'd have the TEDBF. The FAs the Mk-2 are expected to replace are due to retire from service ~ 2035 onwards. So I really don't know where are you getting your information from when you wrote what you did.

GE is an unreliable supplier. Even if it started delivering 20 engines a year from today, HAL would not produce 200 Mk1A in time for HAL to start Mk2 assembly 2032-2033.

COVID has affected supply chain issues the world over especially for the aerospace industry. Dassault is facing similar supply chain issues. So is Airbus & Boeing although the latter has other issues going on simultaneously .

Eric Trappier the CEO of Dassault Aerospace has in a recent interview revealed the issues with the supply chains Dassault is facing . Earlier I was of the opinion it's the US administration playing their usual dirty tricks but I've since revised my opinion.

HAL can & should deliver the airframes it's contracted to deliver by the required time schedule. A delay of a year or two will be considered par for the course given persistence of present problems which should be ameliorated with time .

We've also just received confirmation that the deal of the GE F-414 will be signed in the next 6 months i.e by the end of this financial year . That should mean by 2030 the plant will be ready to churn out the F - 414 by then in peak production capacity.

You don't have to be a business genius to foresee problems with planning to complete Mk1A production before starting Mk2 production. Doing that will very likely lead to a delay in Mk2 production.

It seems you know more about the production schedule of HAL than HAL themselves. Perhaps you'd be good enough to share information about your pessimism then.

Of course, if HAL has reason to believe that Mk2 will not be tested, certified and ready for production by 2032 that changes the risk assessment.

First Flight of the Mk-2 is scheduled for first half of 2027. In 3 years from the first flight , LSP will commence i.e by 2030. Full fledged production will follow FOC due in 2032 , 5 years from the first flight.

As of now this is the firm schedule . We've nothing by way of information to suggest this schedule will not be met. Further discussions can be had once we've concrete information on delays , if any.

 

[Spitfire IX]

@Azaad
OK, you don't want to speculate. You want certainty. You don't want to discuss reducing the risk of delays. You want to wait until delays occur before discussing them.

You expect that 23-26 Mk1A will be delivered in around 2 years or less.

I don't know more about HAL's production schedule than HAL does but IMO it is risky regarding Mk2 because it plans for Mk2 production to follow on from Mk1A production. Given that GE cannot deliver engines on schedule and aim to raise F404 deliveries to 20 a year, I do not see how HAL can schedule to produce 200 Mk1A in less than 10 years with a high degree of confidence. Tell me how you can produce more Mk1A per year than engines supplied each year.

My comment on Mk1A production was in relation to the risk of Mk2 production being delayed if production start is governed by Mk1A production finishing.

As for Tejas production levels, did HAL ever produce 8 a year when production capacity was 8 a year? 16 a year when production capacity was 16 a year? When production capacity is 24 a year, will HAL produce 24 a year if GE supplies 24 engines a year?

You seem to assess the risk of Mk2 production being delayed as near zero if HAL's plans are followed. I have explained why I do not.

 

[Srinivas]

View: https://x.com/VinodDX9/status/1822181116003926314

GE414 is an option only, India will not go with US engines.

 

[Azaad]

@Azaad
OK, you don't want to speculate. You want certainty. You don't want to discuss reducing the risk of delays. You want to wait until delays occur before discussing them.

You expect that 23-26 Mk1A will be delivered in around 2 years or less.

I don't know more about HAL's production schedule than HAL does but IMO it is risky regarding Mk2 because it plans for Mk2 production to follow on from Mk1A production. Given that GE cannot deliver engines on schedule and aim to raise F404 deliveries to 20 a year, I do not see how HAL can schedule to produce 200 Mk1A in less than 10 years with a high degree of confidence. Tell me how you can produce more Mk1A per year than engines supplied each year.

My comment on Mk1A production was in relation to the risk of Mk2 production being delayed if production start is governed by Mk1A production finishing.

As for Tejas production levels, did HAL ever produce 8 a year when production capacity was 8 a year? 16 a year when production capacity was 16 a year? When production capacity is 24 a year, will HAL produce 24 a year if GE supplies 24 engines a year?

You seem to assess the risk of Mk2 production being delayed as near zero if HAL's plans are followed. I have explained why I do not.

I'm not sure you understand modern production systems . OEMs today are more designers & system integrators than manufacturers as opposed to doing everything in house which used to be the practise in the past . This is as true of the Aerospace industry as of any engineering industry , light medium or heavy .

Hence under such circumstances it stands to reason that there will be uncertainties as far as delivery timelines go & what can be offered at best are tentative schedules. Under ordinary circumstances the delay would be of a limited nature , however with COVID we saw world wide disruptions across supply chains which has impacted just about every facet of life where recovery schedules have gone awry.

I've just mentioned in my previous post how this has impacted the delivery schedule of veteran OEMs like Dassault , Airbus , Boeing even LM apart from major components mfg set ups like GE , P&W , SAFRAN , RR , etc . How exactly do you think with the kind of dependencies HAL has on local component mfg & imports will it be immune when other OEMs aren't ?!

It is what is referred to in a piece of contract as force majeure apart from another clause known as an Act of God.

Coming back to the schedule you've provided about HAL not living upto its commitment , I'm not sure you've accounted for the fact that the LCA program has never been about merely designing & developing an LCA but the entire ecosystem around it which includes hunting teaching & nurturing talent , sub component & component mfg in India & abroad apart from hand holding them which has been a rather steep learning curve for the DRDO / ADA + HAL combine.

This is important as up until this point HAL was merely a glorified system integrator of completely knocked down & semi knocked down kits with little to no supply chains developed within India.

It's only in the past 10 years that HAL came into the picture as a SERIOUS player as the scenario before that was pretty muddled with ADA pretty much on its own , the IAF not too keen on the LCA & MoD caught in between . It was all due to the initiative of the late Manohar Parrikar the former defence minister that the entire program was effectively streamlined & brought back on track around 2016.

All said & done the uncertainties of the past are behind us with HAL now having successfully established both its supply chains as well as in house assembly lines. The delivery schedules announced are tentative with more than reasonable chances it'd be met .

Hence my earlier observations that barring any FURTHER delay apart from the ones already mentioned , of which we've no knowledge as of now rendering it futile to speculate , everything else has been accounted for .

 

[Spitfire IX]

GE414 is an option only, India will not go with US engines.

India chose the F414 many, many years ago. Mk2 is designed around that engine, isn't it? If Russia has a suitable engine of around 100kN thrust in production, perhaps that could be considered? Another alternative would be to hope that ROK produces its projected engine - dimensionally identical to F414 - from around 2035. F414 could be used until the ROK engine becomes available post 2035, always assuming ROK manages to develop it successfully.

 

[Spitfire IX]

It's because of LCA Mk-2 that the IAF will never import a new single engine aircraft simply because on paper, the projected specs of MWF are way too good, it basically offers everything the IAF could ask for in a single engine medium weight aircraft. SAAB's Gripen being offered in MMRCA won't ever win because of Tejas MK-2 so the Swedes are simply wasting their time and being desperate for a deal that they will never bag.

I agree with you. I think SAAB are wasting their money marketing a 'no hoper' in the MRFA competition. Why are they doing it -to keep their product in the limelight with lots of free publicity?

SAAB is ready to produce 25 Gripen-E jets per year for India

Should New Delhi choose SAAB for its Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft, the company promises to manufacture between 20 and 25 jets per year for the Indian Air Force.

bulgarianmilitary.com

 

[FalconSlayers]

View: https://x.com/manishindiatv/status/1823225076889575476

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Between good discussions some gyaani appears (in twitter mostly they are omnipresent)

View: https://x.com/August1stbayi/status/1822674839062388789

He put it in provocative way, Twitter is a messy place. But we all ehtusiasts are gyaani in some way that's fuel for forums. We all want to learn. I also had same concern.
R&D is supposed to be secret, so initial models, pics, etc are supposed to be incomplete or even misleading.
I found some pics of model with canards in up position.
I couldn't find a hi-res version of side view


I'm putting an edited collage focusing on canards in up position from other angles.
The canard does strike the wing. In flight this would try to trap & compress the air, possibly causing oscillation & malfunction of canards & inboard slats.
But it is just a static model.



In EF-2000, Gripen the canards are clear of the body.
In Rafale the canards are little front of the wing & its shoulder/LERX is portruding sideways out not to let canards affect engine intake airlow. And the trailing inner edge has been clipped not to strike LERX.


Also, the IFR probe would create vortex affecting the air flow of right canard only. If we compare this to IFRP of Rafale, Gripen, EF-2000 then that's not the case.

 

[jaijaganath]

View: https://x.com/manishindiatv/status/1823225076889575476

Typical ada official behaviour
Literally no one there has exact idea when the rollout or ff will happen
Not a single person from top to bottom
Everyone have their own assumptions on the particular section they are working
That's not completely their fault as supply chain issues makes project very much unpredictable as ur all calculation and assumption will change on ground situation
U don't when a new problem will arise

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

HAL intends to start production of Tejas Mk2 after completing production of 180 Tejas Mk1A. So far zero Mk1A have been completed. HAL is aiming for the capacity to assemble 24 units of Mk1A each year. Starting Mk2 production in 2029 is therefore impossible unless the number of Mk1A to be produced is cut back severely. The article omits mentioning that.

Starting test flights with the first Tejas Mk2 prototype in March 2026 is possible but it needs to be noted that it was scheduled to roll out in 2022, then in 2023, then in 2024 and I believe is currently scheduled to roll out in 2025.

So far the roll-out has been just rolling on the floor laughing