ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Yeah su30 makes sense.. has whole lot of fuel and can play the hot/cold game longer than the light fighters. The lighter ones should have just enough to engage and basically fire what they have till their fuel lasts and rtb. With heavier missile load on them the combat rad will also reduce.. so every aircraft type should just have the optimum number for each mission type.

Agreed bcoz it is simple maths of TWR (Thrust to Weight Ratio) & aerodynamic design, hence i don't even favor light jet, sometimes medium jets. We are in a quicksand bcoz we loved importing, didn't do timely R&D so now we have to tolerate these light & medium 4gen jets when world is racing for 6gen.
I even approximately calculated & made a table of light/medium/heavy class stealth jets where light jet should carry 4 AAMs internally, but with same TWR a heavy jet can have 8-10 AAMs.


But a 4gen not caring about stealth can enjoy some more AAMs hanging out. So if Rafale can have 12 AAMs with 2 fuel tanks then MWF also. The following are original idea of creator:

 

[Bleh]

Yeah su30 makes sense.. has whole lot of fuel and can play the hot/cold game longer than the light fighters. The lighter ones should have just enough to engage and basically fire what they have till their fuel lasts and rtb. With heavier missile load on them the combat rad will also reduce.. so every aircraft type should just have the optimum number for each mission type.

IAF may have 8AAMs on Su-30, but the number is 6 for medium & 4 for light fighters.

 

[Bleh]

So my idea that heavy fighters would be replaced by large stealth BVR & SOW based fighter-bombers seems to be agreeing with the Chinese philosophy as well.


On the light-medium front however Turks have it right. From early on they'd planned out creation of a large-ish fighter complemented by a cheaper light 5th Gen fighter FX-6 based off on KAAN, that can be afforded on okay numbers.

I'm afraid MWF is going to be the "Jaguar of tomorrow" coming after 2030, a high-payload jet that'll excell in strike missions in safer skies controlled by us but will have terrible against stealthy 5th Gens that'll become common in its time.
After 2040, we need an ALCA as much as weed need an AHCA sniper-bomber, a stealthy Tejas Mark 3. And for that to happen we need to start now!

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Since DFI days i have emphasized that 4gen can be MLUed till a limit. A gen leap is said to occur when airframe cannot bear more MLU, the newer tech require more space or re-positioning/replacement of certain components. And missiles will also evolve smartly with multi-spectral seekers.
So all-aspect stealth becomes important otherwise a jet simply becomes a mosquito waiting to be shot down. That's the fate of any older gen in front of newer gen. And this is why i don't waste my time going to LCA thread in any forum. I don't even talk about Gripen or even Rafale, EF-2000 bcoz these jets have seen sufficient service & their creators are skipping 5gen with GCAP & FCAS. Once they come in a decade then future versions of Eurocanards will only do brooming & mopping & will be exported to R&D-less countries.
So MWF also needs to evolve. The entire project management needs to evolve & fast track.
Only changing cockpit & some internal components is not enough, a geometrical treatment is required. The 1st few battles will be fought in stealth mode, then beast mode will come.
If team size is short, hire more. If facilities are short, expand. It is now or never.
The following is what i shared on DFI:


In pure AA mode, may be 3 BVR-AAMs can fit in its center IWB.

 

[Spitfire IX]

I have read (no source given) that an export order for Korea's KF-21 has been blocked. True or false, this ties in with Korea's announcement that it is giving special tax advantages to Korea's engine development sector.

Why mention it here? Korea's KF-21 uses the F414 engine. It has just started developing what is believed to be a 'dropin ' replacement engine that could be used for Tejas Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA Mk1.

Expect a certified ~100kN engine from Korea in less time than India has so far spent discussing co-development of an engine for AMCA Mk2.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Have a shocking , fainting, LOLing & ROFLing weekend

 

[RocketMan]

Boeing X 32 is most similar to our Tejas if developed as 5th gen .

 

[Azaad]

I have read (no source given) that an export order for Korea's KF-21 has been blocked. True or false, this ties in with Korea's announcement that it is giving special tax advantages to Korea's engine development sector.

Why mention it here? Korea's KF-21 uses the F414 engine. It has just started developing what is believed to be a 'dropin ' replacement engine that could be used for Tejas Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA Mk1.

Expect a certified ~100kN engine from Korea in less time than India has so far spent discussing co-development of an engine for AMCA Mk2.

Post in thread 'Indian Defence Podcasts : No Discussions' https://defenceforumbharat.com/threads/indian-defence-podcasts-no-discussions.536/post-71391

If you're truly interested in the reasons behind why the Indian aerospace sector is lagging , sometimes frustratingly so , you'd do no better than to see this podcast .

If you've the patience to sit thru 1 hour you'd be richly rewarded with plenty of information & rigourous analyses. You can trust it the way you'd trust the gospel. The hosts are impeccable sources.

You can view it on 1.5x speed or more depending on your comfort level

 

[shade2]

https://aninews.in/news/national/general-news/price-for-ge-414-engine-deal-for-indigenous-lca-mark-2-fighter-jets-likely-to-go-up20241230222417/

Price for GE-414 engine deal for Indigenous LCA Mark 2 fighter jets likely to go up - ANI

Y'all nibbiars may think this is GE fucking with us with the Deal Master 9000 assuming the throne next year, but this is a sign from the Lord God himself for GoI to open the floodgates of funding for Kaveri.

Whether GoI pays attention to this sign or not remains to be seen.

 

[vampyrbladez]

https://aninews.in/news/national/general-news/price-for-ge-414-engine-deal-for-indigenous-lca-mark-2-fighter-jets-likely-to-go-up20241230222417/

Price for GE-414 engine deal for Indigenous LCA Mark 2 fighter jets likely to go up - ANI

Y'all nibbiars may think this is GE fucking with us with the Deal Master 9000 assuming the throne next year, but this is a sign from the Lord God himself for GoI to open the floodgates of funding for Kaveri.

Whether GoI pays attention to this sign or not remains to be seen.

I see the deal going through next year since the US has now upgraded from 'Deny/Delay' of the Democrats to 'Russian style fleecing' of the Republicans.

Kaveri MUST receive all funding immediately.

 

[Azaad]

https://aninews.in/news/national/general-news/price-for-ge-414-engine-deal-for-indigenous-lca-mark-2-fighter-jets-likely-to-go-up20241230222417/

Price for GE-414 engine deal for Indigenous LCA Mark 2 fighter jets likely to go up - ANI

Y'all nibbiars may think this is GE fucking with us with the Deal Master 9000 assuming the throne next year, but this is a sign from the Lord God himself for GoI to open the floodgates of funding for Kaveri.

Whether GoI pays attention to this sign or not remains to be seen.

I see the deal going through next year since the US has now upgraded from 'Deny/Delay' of the Democrats to 'Russian style fleecing' of the Republicans.

Kaveri MUST receive all funding immediately.

Although news of this development is appearing in the media now , this isn't a new development & must have been known to the powers that be long ago.

The CCS approval for the Mk-2 was accorded in late 2022 while funds were allocated exactly 1 year later after the deal to mfg the F-414 locally went thru mid last year whereas in AI- 2021 , we were given a T/L of first flight of the Mk-2 in 2024. What this means is the project was delayed while negotiations for the local mfg of the Mk-2 was taking place.

This is similar to the decision of the IAF to procure the Honeywell F-125 TFs for replacement of the RR Adour TFs powering the Jaguars during the DARIN III program , the procurement saga of which went on for more than 10 years IIRC during which Honeywell held the price for a considerable amount of time heeding the MoD's repeated requests but finally increased it nearly a decade later which came around the time the decision was finally taken to go in for the replacements under the DARIN III program when the budget was finally approved.

Result - the price increase went substantially over budget & the IAF decided to go ahead with the DARIN upgrades without the Honeywell TFs reducing the number of FA to be upgraded. Who's to be blamed for this outcome ? Honeywell or IAF or the MoD ?

 

[bakofbakchod]

So it is soon 2025. Where are the prototypes? Does anyone have insider knowledge on what is happening inside and the current status? ADA was claiming this will roll out in 2022...

 

[705-Lira]

So it is soon 2025. Where are the prototypes? Does anyone have insider knowledge on what is happening inside and the current status? ADA was claiming this will roll out in 2022...

Well unless you have been living under a rock, it's very well known that proto roll-out is scheduled for Sept 2025

 

[vampyrbladez]

Although news of this development is appearing in the media now , this isn't a new development & must have been known to the powers that be long ago.

The CCS approval for the Mk-2 was accorded in late 2022 while funds were allocated exactly 1 year later after the deal to mfg the F-414 locally went thru mid last year whereas in AI- 2021 , we were given a T/L of first flight of the Mk-2 in 2024. What this means is the project was delayed while negotiations for the local mfg of the Mk-2 was taking place.

This is similar to the decision of the IAF to procure the Honeywell F-125 TFs for replacement of the RR Adour TFs powering the Jaguars during the DARIN III program , the procurement saga of which went on for more than 10 years IIRC during which Honeywell held the price for a considerable amount of time heeding the MoD's repeated requests but finally increased it nearly a decade later which came around the time the decision was finally taken to go in for the replacements under the DARIN III program when the budget was finally approved.

Result - the price increase went substantially over budget & the IAF decided to go ahead with the DARIN upgrades without the Honeywell TFs reducing the number of FA to be upgraded. Who's to be blamed for this outcome ? Honeywell or IAF or the MoD ?

It is old news :

The US wanted $1.1M per engine for 99 engines, which comes up to $108.9M. India's offer was for $80M.

Seems like chindigiri by MoD babu did not work with US. This also means that some kind of agreed final price has been confirmed for the deal to go through.

U.S. Wants $1.1 Million Per GE F-414 Turbofan, India Offers $80 Million​

https://www.indiandefensenews.in/2024/03/us-wants-11-billion-per-ge-f-414.html#:~:text=which it lacked.-,Once the MLA is accepted by the US, commercial negotiations,F-414 engines will start.&text=While the US administration is,privy to negotiations pointed out.

 

[Azaad]

It is old news :

The US wanted $1.1M per engine for 99 engines, which comes up to $108.9M. India's offer was for $80M.

Seems like chindigiri by MoD babu did not work with US. This also means that some kind of agreed final price has been confirmed for the deal to go through.

U.S. Wants $1.1 Million Per GE F-414 Turbofan, India Offers $80 Million​

https://www.indiandefensenews.in/2024/03/us-wants-11-billion-per-ge-f-414.html#:~:text=which it lacked.-,Once the MLA is accepted by the US, commercial negotiations,F-414 engines will start.&text=While the US administration is,privy to negotiations pointed out.

The entire deal is touted to be 1 billion USD which given the purchase prices for the TFs themselves works out to ~ 900 million for ToT , royalties , etc to locally mfg those TFs. Probably includes the price for setting up the factory , tooling , etc.

Wow !

 

[shiphone]

1.1million per F414 engine? lol...how could it be done?

you have bought F404 several times already, so have a double check

 

[Azaad]

1.1million per F414 engine? lol...how could it be done?

you have brought F404 several times already, so have a double check

Yup. That's probably lazy journalism. That could well be the cost of escalation. The unit price should be between 7-8 million USD perhaps closer to 10 million USD.

 

[Nutcracker]

1.1million per F414 engine? lol...how could it be done?

you have brought F404 several times already, so have a double check

It is old news :

The US wanted $1.1M per engine for 99 engines, which comes up to $108.9M. India's offer was for $80M.

Seems like chindigiri by MoD babu did not work with US. This also means that some kind of agreed final price has been confirmed for the deal to go through.

U.S. Wants $1.1 Million Per GE F-414 Turbofan, India Offers $80 Million​

https://www.indiandefensenews.in/2024/03/us-wants-11-billion-per-ge-f-414.html#:~:text=which it lacked.-,Once the MLA is accepted by the US, commercial negotiations,F-414 engines will start.&text=While the US administration is,privy to negotiations pointed out.

10M vs 8M. You missed an extra Zero. It's difference of 200M$.
404 cost us 7M per unit.

 

[shiphone]

The two countries have agreed that the HAL can produce beyond the agreed fixed number of engines after giving royalty per engine. The MoU between GE and HAL was signed on June 22, 2023, in Washington when Prime Minister Narendra Modi was on official three-day visit to the USA.

oh...the price(1.1million) should be royalty ONLY...

normaly US navy could get a F414 @ around 5 million and earlier the price of F404 was around 4 million

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Boeing X 32 is most similar to our Tejas if developed as 5th gen .

Don't take the Su-75 example literally. I used only its cross sction, not the entire design. Intakes can also be on sides. But ultimately the duct should be serpentine to hide the engine even if RF blocker is used.