Air India AI 171 Crash in Ahmedabad (4 Viewers)

[shiphone]

it seems you are quite young or too young?
no need for more discussion (from me) but for the final report...TBO, the fact seems to be very clear already.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

it seems you are quite young or too young?

I don't pass personal comments, slangs bcoz i'm IT engineer in 40s, also religious minded.
In my profile itself i've mentioned humbly 'low IQ', 'mid-aged' & profile pic is of iconic EMC2 Symmetrix VMAX storage, the best one at its time. 'Too young' people don't know this.
Now i wonder if this is someone's Eye problem or IQ problem or both.

no need for more discussion (from me) but for the final report...TBO, the fact seems to be very clear already.

You are still most welcome to discuss neutrally, politely, with publicly verifiable stuff, that's what brings gavity, credibility, trust.
Mary Schiavo exposed that out of all pilot blaming cases, 75-80% were tech issues.
+ Boeing whistle blowers.
I'm still considering all angles being a techie.

 

[Psacha123]

View: https://x.com/shivaroor/status/1946404273224348129?s=46

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

View: https://x.com/CaptShaktiLumba/status/1944397999750406329

Theoretically, TCB can also have electronic/electrical issues.

This aspect i mentioned in my last post that there are layers -
- mechanical switch layer
- electronic circuit layer below
- connectors & wiring layer
- S/w layer

> EEC's TCMA function shut down engines (fuel valves) of ANA 787 just before landing. This doesn't move guarded fuel switch.
> Load-relief function can operate flaps. This doesn't move notched flaps lever.
> Electrical Management's Load shedding function can deprioritise & auto-shut some fuel pumps, hydraullic pumps, etc under certain conditions. IDK yet if this will turn hydraulic, AC-pack knobs, etc in overhead panel.

So apart from S/w layer glitch,
the electronic circuit, connector, wiring layers can also have glitch, or maintenance issues.

Earlier, there was STAB POS XDCR message for Stabillier Position Transducer, which was troubleshooted.
STAB trim switch is in control column & thumb operated,
but red color guarded toggle switch for STAB on-cutoff are beside the fuel switches.



So where exactly was the issue?
- Transducer
- wiring
- connector
- switch
- something in TCB box?
From the message it appears that the Transducer is faulty, but a bad connector or wiring on either end MIGHT also produce this error.
An Electronics &/or Electrical engineer can tell best.

What exactly was troubleshooted?
Was something replaced like Stab Transducer, connector, wiring, Stab trim switch, stab on-off switch beside the fuel switches?

These 2 switches of Stab & fuel clearly seen to be 2 units with fixing screws. But still, can there be a short circuit in TCB box in or around Stab on-off switch, which also affected the Fuel switches?

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

@Interested
check this video at @3:56 just after T/o
Do you hear clicking sound? Do you think it is similar to Fuel switches? IDK what is it.


View: https://youtu.be/2wvPZG_0lOI?si=qS4Sj4QvY-kjfuc5&t=235

@Interested
Check this at @6:27 again just after T/o.


View: https://youtu.be/j7q6wAudDDI?si=nO1EM70tPutHh6St&t=386

the 'click' sound of above video is the 'gear-up switch LOCK RELEASE' ...you can see after this click one of the crew starts to touch the swith to retractable landing gear... this switch is always locked on the ground.

> After searching i found that the tiny black color LOCK OVRD button beside the gear handle is pushed to release the gear lock when in down position, but it is auto-released upon T/o. This means that this button is pressed only when gear cannot be pulled up due to the lock.
> This is very difficult to see in videos from which we see that the monitoring pilot doesn't operate this button.
> It is also difficult to see in videos if the FMC auto-pushes this button bcoz these buttons are basically electronic 'relays'.

> Additionally, It is also the AUTOBRAKE knob turning from RTO to OFF.
It is located just below gear lever handle.
But the CLICK sounds plural. I wonder if more knobs, switches are auto-moved like this.
What a technial coincidence with AI-171 where some people are expecting Fuel switch off clicks around this time. I don't expect the investigation team would get confused with this click, especially when FDR data has revealed everything by now.



I'll expect repliers to do more homework & be precise & most importantly be polite.

 

[hurrians]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/air-india-crash-probe-investigators-examining-signs-of-electric-tail-fire-before-fatal-air-india-crash-101752985918456.html

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/air-india-crash-probe-investigators-examining-signs-of-electric-tail-fire-before-fatal-air-india-crash-101752985918456.html

Hmm, i wonder what in tail can cause both engines pull back or shut down.

High resolution images are difficult to find.
The tail has APU, battery for APU & rear galleys.
Behind the galleys is a bulkhead which i think is fire-hardened if APU catches fire + fire bottle for APU.






Initially long back there were battery issues which are said to be solved.



But suppose if we think that in AI-171 if there was tail battery or APU fire, then how would this affect engines?
AFAIK, on T/o the APU is not used & in this case also it was off, activated after engines failed.

 

[hurrians]

https://aaib.gov.in/What's%20New%20Assets/Preliminary%20Report%20VT-ANB.pdf

 

[hurrians]

The question is why is aft recorder more damaged than forward recorder including thermal and crash damages as per preliminary report- data couldn't be downloaded from it by "conventional" means

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

The question is why is aft recorder more damaged than forward recorder including thermal and crash damages as per preliminary report- data couldn't be downloaded from it by "conventional" means

Perhaps bcoz the tail hit the mess building 1st causing it to break & stop instantly, this impact might have mechanically damaged rear FDR.
Theoretically, thermal damage could be due to fire in battery, galley, APU related components.
Combustible materials may catch fire due to impact friction also. Some fuel might have got splashed back from broken wings & fuselage too.

Compared to this, the forward FDR suffered different kind of impact. The broken forward fuselage seem to have brushed off the residential buildings ahead &/or landedon ground.

 

[spikey360]

Hmm, i wonder what in tail can cause both engines pull back or shut down.

You will be disappointed to know that in an aeroplane, there are no standalone or single point of failure systems.
Only man in the loop is the single point of failure. One can deny all one wants, but denial does need to stand the test of logic.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

You will be disappointed to know that in an aeroplane, there are no standalone or single point of failure systems.
Only man in the loop is the single point of failure. One can deny all one wants, but denial does need to stand the test of logic.

How possible tail fire can happen due to manual error? Maintenance issue? And how can that affect both engines?

 

[Doreamon]

I had not watched it before . But now I am quiet convinced that sucide theory does not work . Pulling both switch and putting it on off is not possible with in 1 sec .


View: https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1946622118625436139


View: https://youtube.com/shorts/dlmy0lYMU6E?si=Xh8S55xeO3W6m8YF

The way report was released at midnight gives flame to various theories .

 

[spikey360]

How possible tail fire can happen due to manual error? Maintenance issue? And how can that affect both engines?

No no, I mean to say, Pilot Suicide is the most credible theory.
I have read all your previous posts. You are trying very hard to deny it. But now, you yourself are coming to conclusions that none of these alternative theories make much sense.
It is only by a manual flip that fuel can be cut off. That happened. That was registered in the data recorder.
End of story.

 

[spikey360]

I had not watched it before . But now I am quiet convinced that sucide theory does not work . Pulling both switch and putting it on off is not possible with in 1 sec .


View: https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1946622118625436139


View: https://youtube.com/shorts/dlmy0lYMU6E?si=Xh8S55xeO3W6m8YF

The way report was released at midnight gives flame to various theories .

Explanation is a long shot and quite frankly cherry picking.
Captain assumes the suicidal pilot used only one hand. He may have used both his hands a to shut flip off switches.
Captain assumes the suicidal pilot won't put up a fight and immediately vacate his hands so that non suicidal pilot can restart the fuel supply.
Too much me me me, assumption. Instead of all this, we should put the focus also on the mental and social state and history of both men. I don't understand why people some people have taken a stance that it is impossible for humans to commit suicide. Not the first time certainly.

 

[Doreamon]

Explanation is a long shot and quite frankly cherry picking.
Captain assumes the suicidal pilot used only one hand. He may have used both his hands a to shut flip off switches.
Captain assumes the suicidal pilot won't put up a fight and immediately vacate his hands so that non suicidal pilot can restart the fuel supply.
Too much me me me, assumption. Instead of all this, we should put the focus also on the mental and social state and history of both men. I don't understand why people some people have taken a stance that it is impossible for humans to commit suicide. Not the first time certainly.

But then when asked why he switched off , he says no I did nt ... If I were in his place I ll say - ha ha , fck u , u r coming with me .. fck u air india and so on ... There might be more recordings ..

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I had not watched it before . But now I am quiet convinced that sucide theory does not work . Pulling both switch and putting it on off is not possible with in 1 sec .


View: https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1946622118625436139


View: https://youtube.com/shorts/dlmy0lYMU6E?si=Xh8S55xeO3W6m8YF

The way report was released at midnight gives flame to various theories .

Capt. Eshan Khalid in the video mentioned an important thing which i also said that -
- mechanical layer of some switches & their movements doesn't always has to correspond to electronic & S/w layers below, bcoz EEC functions like TCMA, overspeed control, RPM red line control, etc simply can shut the FSOVs, but the guarded fuel toggle switch would remain as it is.
- similarly, load-relief function can operate flaps, but notched lever doesn't move.
- Messages on MFD will be displayed & pilots have to act to physically match the switch position with what FMC did.

- He also said that automatic re-light operation is programmed in FMC, so this has to be confirmed by Boeing & 787 pilots who have experience on mid-air re-lights, or by anyone in pubic by looking at public level flight manual, that -
- does re-light need fuel switches manual off & on or the FMC+EEC will auto-handle everything depending upon flight segment ?
- how much time will FMC/EEC take?
- Can the process be speeded up by manual over-ride by proactive operation of switches?

The Prelim report mentions 1 pilot asking other & other denying in PASSIVE VOICE.
So the exact sentence is not known.
The TONE is not known, if he exclaimed in normal volume or screamed angrily.
Some foreign pilots & audience also suspected FO for mistake & acting to confuse CVR, which propagandist deny, means for them culprit = Capt. only, cannot be FO.

 

[spikey360]

Capt. Eshan Khalid in the video mentioned an important thing which i also said that -
- mechanical layer of some switches & their movements doesn't always has to correspond to electronic & S/w layers below, bcoz EEC functions like TCMA, overspeed control, RPM red line control, etc simply can shut the FSOVs, but the guarded fuel toggle switch would remain as it is.
- similarly, load-relief function can operate flaps, but notched lever doesn't move.
- Messages on MFD will be displayed & pilots have to act to physically match the switch position with what FMC did.

- He also said that automatic re-light operation is programmed in FMC, so this has to be confirmed by Boeing & 787 pilots who have experience on mid-air re-lights, or by anyone in pubic by looking at public level flight manual, that -
- does re-light need fuel switches manual off & on or the FMC+EEC will auto-handle everything depending upon flight segment ?
- how much time will FMC/EEC take?
- Can the process be speeded up by manual over-ride by proactive operation of switches?

The Prelim report mentions 1 pilot asking other & other denying in PASSIVE VOICE.
So the exact sentence is not known.
The TONE is not known, if he exclaimed in normal volume or screamed angrily.
Some foreign pilots & audience also suspected FO for mistake & acting to confuse CVR, which propagandist deny, means for them culprit = Capt. only, cannot be FO.

So you are assuming that there will be no log kept on why the software state flipped, due to programmatic deduction or manual switch function.
No offence, this is not how real time(RT) failsafe software works, before commenting on software glitches, please read up.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

No no, I mean to say, Pilot Suicide is the most credible theory.

Instead of all this, we should put the focus also on the mental and social state and history of both men. I don't understand why people some people have taken a stance that it is impossible for humans to commit suicide. Not the first time certainly.

> On what basis did u convince yourself pilot suicide when all tech aspects are yet to be looked on by investigation team?
> Have you looked at all tech aspects, all the systems possible malfunction points?
> Do you have medical records & behavioral data of pilots?
> AAIB has issued stern warning against defamation propaganda under IPC 499 & 500. WSJ & other media houses & everybody in general has been cautioned. DO NOT THINK THAT WE ALL CANNOT BE TRACED BY POLICE.

I have read all your previous posts. You are trying very hard to deny it. But now, you yourself are coming to conclusions that none of these alternative theories make much sense.

> I'm sharing my homework & asking other members for their input, this is a discussion.
> We all can guess but who are we to conclude being a regular citizens w/o investigation data? This is all casual chat like we do with friends, family, neighbors, etc.
> I'm not trying hard to deny anything, i myself mentioned pilot suicde list. But none of us will have access to FDR, CVR, medical records & behavioral data for homicidal case.
> Logic in technology & homicide matters explores all angles BASED on many things, not blunt concluson or denial.
> The investigation team makes different data structures like tree/fish-bone diagram, tables, flow charts, etc to explore all angles.
> So the pilot error/crime angle will be refined more by CVR, FDR, medical records, behavioral data in office, etc.
> And other tech glitch angles will be refined also by CVR, FDR, understanding of all systems.

It is only by a manual flip that fuel can be cut off. That happened. That was registered in the data recorder.
End of story.

- The FDR data is not out yet.

This proves -
- neither you bothered to watch any material on 787 systems.

- nor you watched even my posts properly where repeatedly i've mentioned with screenshots, colors, bold, underline, emojis that -

- There are 4 layers - mechanical, electronic, wiring+connectors, S/w with their own glitches.

- certain switches can be electronically auto-operated by FMC+EEC like functions of TCMA, RPM red-line control, overspeed control, over-temperature control, load-relief flap control, etc.

So you are assuming that there will be no log kept on why the software state flipped, due to programmatic deduction or manual switch function.

Remember we all are enthusiasts here & looking at Avionics 1st time. At least people like me are investing daily time to watch tech videos, articles & share them.
So there's no point in making such assumptions in the process of understanding aircrafts & avionics.

It is people like you who have made baseless assumptions of suicide & upon asking you upon tech points also you turn it towards suicide w/o any tech explanation.

No offence, this is not how real time(RT) failsafe software works, before commenting on software glitches, please read up.

No offence but,
- neither you read all my posts properly,
- nor you explained any technical material,
- nor you consider past accidents based on S/w glitches like TCMA & MCAS malfunctions
- nor you talk like a S/w engineer or any type of techie.

 

[spikey360]

> On what basis did u convince yourself pilot suicide when all tech aspects are yet to be looked on by investigation team?
> Have you looked at all tech aspects, all the systems possible malfunction points?
> Do you have medical records & behavioral data of pilots?
> AAIB has issued stern warning against defamation propaganda under IPC 499 & 500. WSJ & other media houses & everybody in general has been cautioned. DO NOT THINK THAT WE ALL CANNOT BE TRACED BY POLICE.


> I'm sharing my homework & asking other members for their input, this is a discussion.
> We all can guess but who are we to conclude being a regular citizens w/o investigation data? This is all casual chat like we do with friends, family, neighbors, etc.
> I'm not trying hard to deny anything, i myself mentioned pilot suicde list. But none of us will have access to FDR, CVR, medical records & behavioral data for homicidal case.
> Logic in technology & homicide matters explores all angles BASED on many things, not blunt concluson or denial.
> The investigation team makes different data structures like tree/fish-bone diagram, tables, flow charts, etc to explore all angles.
> So the pilot error/crime angle will be refined more by CVR, FDR, medical records, behavioral data in office, etc.
> And other tech glitch angles will be refined also by CVR, FDR, understanding of all systems.




- The FDR data is not out yet.

This proves -
- neither you bothered to watch any material on 787 systems.

- nor you watched even my posts properly where repeatedly i've mentioned with screenshots, colors, bold, underline, emojis that -

- There are 4 layers - mechanical, electronic, wiring+connectors, S/w with their own glitches.

- certain switches can be electronically auto-operated by FMC+EEC like functions of TCMA, RPM red-line control, overspeed control, over-temperature control, load-relief flap control, etc.


Remember we all are enthusiasts here & looking at Avionics 1st time. At least people like me are investing daily time to watch tech videos, articles & share them.
So there's no point in making such assumptions in the process of understanding aircrafts & avionics.

It is people like you who have made baseless assumptions of suicide & upon asking you upon tech points also you turn it towards suicide w/o any tech explanation.




No offence but,
- neither you read all my posts properly,
- nor you explained any technical material,
- nor you consider past accidents based on S/w glitches like TCMA & MCAS malfunctions
- nor you talk like a S/w engineer or any type of techie.

I am amazed and amused by your colorful posts. May I remind you this is a defence forum, not a children's scrapbook. Be that as it may, any sane person can go through them and find your posts self contradictory.