AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Hawkeye]

True, any possible enlargement can happen in mk2 or mk3 variant. We need to roll out mk1 asap.

And need I say we need to work on AHCA or whatever like J36. Chinese are managing four 5 or 5+gen (yeah, I refuse to call them 6th) fighters j20, j35, J36 and j50, fricking mental my guys.

 

[Kontakt5]

True, any possible enlargement can happen in mk2 or mk3 variant. We need to roll out mk1 asap.

And need I say we need to work on AHCA or whatever like J36. Chinese are managing four 5 or 5+gen (yeah, I refuse to call them 6th) fighters j20, j35, J36 and j50, fricking mental my guys.

It's fine to not acknowledge the generation as it is marketing, but not to dismiss their capabilities. The J-36 and J-50 timelines seem to be along the same lines as GCAP, and NGAD. It would make no sense to induct an aircraft with capabilities of the J-20 when China's opponents are inducting aircraft meant to serve as a replacement to the F-35 and F-22.

It's far more important for the IAF babus to recognize this development and not drag their feet on AMCA mk2 and 6th gen aircraft development. I remember some years ago the J-20 was being touted as a '4.5 gen' equivalent by the globe, not just IAF. But as the USA slowly started to acknowledge the Chinese threat, the global opinion shifted as well. It's best not to repeat mistakes over, better to overestimate the threat, and create a superior aircraft after all.

 

[Pundit Pikachu]

It's fine to not acknowledge the generation as it is marketing, but not to dismiss their capabilities. The J-36 and J-50 timelines seem to be along the same lines as GCAP, and NGAD. It would make no sense to induct an aircraft with capabilities of the J-20 when China's opponents are inducting aircraft meant to serve as a replacement to the F-35 and F-22.

It's far more important for the IAF babus to recognize this development and not drag their feet on AMCA mk2 and 6th gen aircraft development. I remember some years ago the J-20 was being touted as a '4.5 gen' equivalent by the globe, not just IAF. But as the USA slowly started to acknowledge the Chinese threat, the global opinion shifted as well. It's best not to repeat mistakes over, better to overestimate the threat, and create a superior aircraft after all.

So here's what I think is going to happen
We will induct some 80 AMCA mk 1 powered by F414 (admittedly less advanced than F35 or J 35 but 5th gen nonetheless)
These will be Single Seater jets with standard 5th gen features like IWB, EOTS etc
Timelines would be 2032-2037

By this time our 120kn JV engine would be ready and a enlarged/modified AMCA mk 2 would go in production with then.
These will be 5.5 gen Dual Seater Jets with some 6th gen features like Loyal Wingman, High Data Fusion etc.
These Aircrafts would be similar to French FCAS, just somewhat smaller
Timelines would be 2038- 2042
Some 120 Aircraft would be Inducted

 

[Kontakt5]

So here's what I think is going to happen
We will induct some 80 AMCA mk 1 powered by F414 (admittedly less advanced than F35 or J 35 but 5th gen nonetheless)
These will be Single Seater jets with standard 5th gen features like IWB, EOTS etc
Timelines would be 2032-2037

By this time our 120kn JV engine would be ready and a enlarged/modified AMCA mk 2 would go in production with then.
These will be 5.5 gen Dual Seater Jets with some 6th gen features like Loyal Wingman, High Data Fusion etc.
These Aircrafts would be similar to French FCAS, just somewhat smaller
Timelines would be 2038- 2042
Some 120 Aircraft would be Inducted

Currently I'm shaky on the AMCA Mk 1 timeline. If all goes well and AMCA first test flight is seen in 2027, ill be confident in a 2033-2034 induction. But if there are delays, as with the IAF things will be pushed back to likely the 2035-2037 timeline. The IAF must make sure this absolutely is not the case, Mk1 induction this late can not be afforded.

I also believe a much larger order needs to be in place for both Mk 1 and Mk 2. Larger orders means that HAL can better work with economies of scale, and the air forces of 2035 will be vastly larger in stealth capabilities. By 2035 the USA plans to have in total 2,300 F-35's in service. China is trying to match the USA, I won't be at all surprised if China by 2035 has a total of 1800-2000 stealth fighter platforms. India can absolutely not drag their feet, I think AMCA order should be near 500 at least.

 

[Pundit Pikachu]

Currently I'm shaky on the AMCA Mk 1 timeline. If all goes well and AMCA first test flight is seen in 2027, ill be confident in a 2033-2034 induction. But if there are delays, as with the IAF things will be pushed back to likely the 2035-2037 timeline. The IAF must make sure this absolutely is not the case, Mk1 induction this late can not be afforded.

IAF has no other choice, it can not afford any delays so it doesn't matter if AMCA comes out as a three legged cheetah or a 4 legged tiger, its the only option IAF has so it will have to expedite the process and Induct AMCA as soon as possible, I think Mk 1 IOC will be inducted in the Airforce with a contract that they can later be upgraded to FOC standard.
And most likely this IOC standard will only be useful for Air to Air Role Similar to KF 21 Borame.

Unless Vishwagorrila India's Mahamanv Prime Minister Mr Maulana Modi wisen up and double the budget for the program and allow the money to flow more freely plus increase the number of Prototype to hasten up the testing procedure this is most optimistic timeline I can think of.

Because F35 is not an option either US will not loosen up its control on F 35 and we will not give up our strategic autonomy, not to mention I very much doubt that next US government would even be willing to offer F 35 to us, to put it simply we have shot ourselves in the foot with the S400, so yeah either we get AMCA or we don't get anything at all.

I also believe a much larger order needs to be in place for both Mk 1 and Mk 2. Larger orders means that HAL can better work with economies of scale, and the air forces of 2035 will be vastly larger in stealth capabilities. By 2035 the USA plans to have in total 2,300 F-35's in service. China is trying to match the USA, I won't be at all surprised if China by 2035 has a total of 1800-2000 stealth fighter platforms. India can absolutely not drag their feet, I think AMCA order should be near 500 at least.

The number of Mk 1 would be decided by how fast can AMCA mk 2 be fielded, if its 5 years then 80 it is, if its more than that then more Mk1 will follow.
AMCA Mk2's numbers however would be more interesting 120 is the minimum it can go upto 240 or even more for all we know

 

[Spitfire IX]

Enlarging the AMCA airframe at this stage would be a very bad example of mission creep. To enlarge the design airframe by 15% when prototype fabrication is already ongoing could delay the entire program by half a decade or more.

IMO in those circumstances you might as well scrap the AMCA programme as is and start a revised programme aiming at EIS 2045+ with an Indian engine.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

By this time our 120kn JV engine would be ready and a enlarged/modified AMCA mk 2 would go in production with then.
These will be 5.5 gen Dual Seater Jets with some 6th gen features like Loyal Wingman, High Data Fusion etc.

> World is racing for AI/ML including India & IAF has indicated R&D into it also.
But even w/o AI/ML also, WSO is not required to control UCAVs. The pilot can do it by on screen or an extra tab/pad strapped to his/her thigh, even by voice input.
> Even for training, 2nd cockpit is not required like for F-22/35.
> That precious space can be used for at least 1 ton of fuel.

And most likely this IOC standard will only be useful for Air to Air Role Similar to KF 21 Borame

> KF-21 w/o 4gen like skin & w/o IWB is inferior to even current AMCA config with IWB which can house bombs like SAAW, etc.
> 10 years of induction time remaining is a huge time for sincere people, provided fund, facilities, people are sufficient.
> Different sub-teams work on different components.
> It doesn't take monumental effort to integrate S/w module into avionics for drop & forget smart bombs, to such an extent that it'll create huge gap of years b/w AMCA Mk1 & MLUed Mk2.
> Even the EOTS can be implemented in IOC itself.
> Also the HMDS.

We can't afford to act lazy & say that AMCA Mk2 coming in 2045 or Mk3 in 2055 will be true FOC complete 5gen jet.

If Tata, Ambani, Adani, etc won't get into aviation R&D, well, someone will definitely do it someday. Aerospace start-ups have started.
Any experienced professional adult who understand diff. b/w Govt. job & private job would understand that If we had private firms like LM, NG, Boeing, then ADA would face tough competition.

 

[Pundit Pikachu]

> World is racing for AI/ML including India & IAF has indicated R&D into it also.
But even w/o AI/ML also, WSO is not required to control UCAVs. The pilot can do it by on screen or an extra tab/pad strapped to his/her thigh, even by voice input.
> Even for training, 2nd cockpit is not required like for F-22/35.
> That precious space can be used for at least 1 ton of fuel.

counterpoint, J-20S, J-36, J-50
WSO is not there to control UCAVs he is there to act as a node for managing multiple packages of those drones, a WSO can manage a higher number and a wider variety of drones more effectively than any pilot who is 2 timing the job between controlling the aircraft and commanding the drones can

> KF-21 w/o 4gen like skin & w/o IWB is inferior to even current AMCA config with IWB which can house bombs like SAAW, etc.

for crying out loud, KF 21 is being rushed into production with a very limited flight envelope of only air to air weapons and some basic munitions integrated for faster induction, that's what I meant when I said "And most likely this IOC standard will only be useful for Air to Air Role Similar to KF 21 Borame" basically saying IAF won't repeat the same mistake it did with Tejas and will instead rush for faster induction of AMCA even with a limited flight envolope and only basic weapons integrated to it and other things would be slowly added to the plane overtime.
Basically the Induction of the plane into service would be the highest priority and we will start full scale production of AMCA MK 1 immediately after it completes basic testing and AAM integration (basically IOC 1) and will not wait for a FOC, which can be granted later on (with the express promise of IOC standard aircrafts being upgraded to FOC standard)

10 years of induction time remaining is a huge time for sincere people, provided fund, facilities, people are sufficient.
> Different sub-teams work on different components.

Do we really have sufficient people, facilities and fund, infact do we even have a government who gives a sh*t about this whole thing.
If only wishes were horses, beggars would ride

It doesn't take monumental effort to integrate S/w module into avionics for drop & forget smart bombs, to such an extent that it'll create huge gap of years b/w AMCA Mk1 & MLUed Mk2.
> Even the EOTS can be implemented in IOC itself.
> Also the HMDS.

Remind me again how many years did it take LM to integrate all the weapons F 35 has right now.
And how many software updates it took.
F 35 flew with the Meteor for the first time only this year for crying out loud, and it was in planning for over 5 years now.

Also When did I say AMCA won't have EOTS or HMDS, don't put words in my mouth boy when I specifically said AMCA would be a standard 5th gen fighter with EOTS etc.

We can't afford to act lazy & say that AMCA Mk2 coming in 2045 or Mk3 in 2055 will be true FOC complete 5gen jet.

For Christ's sake you didn't read any of my earlier posts did you.
Let me reiterate AMCA mk 1 will be a 5th gen platform and Mk 2 will be a 5.5 gen platform with WSO and bigger airframe and high level automation and deep UCAV integration

If Tata, Ambani, Adani, etc won't get into aviation R&D, well, someone will definitely do it someday. Aerospace start-ups have started.
Any experienced professional adult who understand diff. b/w Govt. job & private job would understand that If we had private firms like LM, NG, Boeing, then ADA would face tough competition.

Once again, If only wishes were horses, beggars would ride
Screw Aerospace, screw ADA just name me one product these big name companies have fully designed in-house that wasn't a hand out from DRDO.

our system punishes these companies by taking decades to let them make a return on their investment,
If it takes 10 years to finally see a piecemeal order for my R&D efforts why would anyone make any serious investment in this sector.
Before asking for tough competition for ADA reform this system that encourages these dhandhos to not do actual R&D and instead promotes screwdrivergiri

Somebody go ask Baba Kalyani how frustrated he feels against this system. (he spent so much money on artillery systems if not for the exports Bharat forge would have most likely gone bankrupt because the current system takes decades for any company to even see revenue let alone ROI)

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Ok, let's clear the misunderstandings b/w us.
Im not accusing you of anything.
Treat this forum like a regular F2F conversation.
Are you Indian citizen?

WSO is not there to control UCAVs he is there to act as a node for managing multiple packages of those drones, a WSO can manage a higher number and a wider variety of drones more effectively than any pilot who is 2 timing the job between controlling the aircraft and commanding the drones.

> Control, manage, whatever vocabulary you wanna use, i mean the same thing in my understanding of S/w engineering & avionics. BTW, AI was an elective subject in early 2000s during my B.E. years.
> The strategy would be to push the UCAVs much ahead, right? So the manned leader will be quaterback safe much behind, like playing chess on his screen, the battlespace being the chess-board.
> Just like the manned group, the leader pilot gives instructions to human wingmen, same thing can be done to AI wingmen with voice input, touch-screen.
> If you understand most of the buttons, switches, dials, knobs, in fighter & civil jet cockpit after watching real videos on YouTube & sim games, then let me tell you that even a civil pilot today doesn't have to be BUSY IN CONTROLLING the aircraft except during takeoff & landing or turbulence. A 5gen fighter cockpit interface is far less complex.
> We Indians don't have to follow Chinese examples of J-20S, J-36, J-50. Nor there is any guarantee that all 6gen jets like NGAD, F/A-XX, FCAS, GCAP, etc would be 2-seat. It depends on the maker's thinking.
> 10s of 1000s of techies would think differently.

for crying out loud, KF 21 is being rushed into production with a very limited flight envelope with only air to air weapons and some basic munitions integrated for faster induction, that's what I was saying when I said "And most likely this IOC standard will only be useful for Air to Air Role Similar to KF 21 Borame" basically meaning IAF won't repeat the same mistake it did with Tejas and will instead rush for faster induction of AMCA with a limited flight envolope with only basic weapons integrated to it and other things would be slowly added to the plane overtime.
Basically the Induction of the plane into service being the highest priority and we will start full scale production of AMCA MK 1 immediately after it completes basic testing and AAM integration (basically IOC 1) and will not wait for a FOC, which can be granted later on (with the express promise of IOC standard aircrafts being upgraded to FOC standard)

Alright, but you should have written these elaborated lines earlier actually.
That 1 line created the misunderstanding.
You've to be specific on diff. b/w IOC & FOC.

Do we really have sufficient people, facilities and fund, infact do we even have a government who gives a sh*t about this whole thing.
If only wishes were horses, beggars would ride

> Do we have? YES. You can do the math - # of medium & big cities in India X avg. # of tech colleges in city X avg. # of techies passing out every year X last 25 years.

> Do we have facilities, fund & does Govt. give a SH**? .... Please ask GoI/MoD guys. I'm engineer, not politician
I said that fund, facilities, people have to be given in most populous country with 1990s IT boom, much better Supercomputers than Param-2000, advanced CAD S/w, robotics, automations.
Otherwise India will suffer.

Remind me again how many years did it take LM to integrate all the weapons F 35 has right now.
And how many software updates it took.
F 35 flew with the Meteor for the first time only this year for crying out loud, and it was in planning for over 5 years now.

We humans think the way we quote examples.
>LM took time doesnt mean entire world will make same mistakes. The idea is to learn from other's mistakes. And DRDO has rich experience of integrating multi-national avionics.
> All the weapons right now mean FOC, but we're talking about IOC, that too for 5gen tech which started in 1980s, made in 1990s, imrproved in 2000s & 2010s by MLUs.
> Like Meteor AAM, we already have tested Astr-3 SFDR which will obviously be there after 10 years in AMCA.
> F-35 being export JSF jet had numerous considerations for member nations. AMCA won't have those issues.

Also When did I say AMCA won't have EOTS or HMDS, don't put words in my mouth boy when I specifically said AMCA would be a standard 5th gen fighter.

RELAX, i'm not accusing you of anything.
I'm 40+yo man, not boy, although i miss my childhood.

For Christ's sake you didn't read my earlier posts did you.
Let me reiterate AMCA mk 1 will be a 5th gen platform and Mk 2 will be a 5.5 gen platform with WSO and bigger airframe and high level automation and deep UCAV integration

I pointed the WSO part.
Jai Mata Di

Once again, If only wishes were horses, beggars would ride
Screw Aerospace, screw ADA just name me one product these big name companies have fully designed in-house that wasn't a hand out from DRDO.

our system punishes these companies by taking decades to let them make a return on their investment,
If it takes 10 years to finally see a piecemeal order for my R&D efforts why would anyone make any serious investment in this sector.
Before asking for tough competition for ADA reform this system that encourages these dhandhos to not do actual R&D and instead promotes screwdrivergiri

Somebody go ask Baba Kalyani how frustrated he feels against this system. (he spent so much money on artillery systems if not for the exports Bharat forge would have most likely gone bankrupt because the current system takes decades for any company to even see revenue let alone ROI)

> I also have concerns on BABU system.
> But i also have concerns over business tycoons not undrstanding that Civil products/services ROI is different from Defence products, especially when our economy is Socialist mixed one, not fully capitalist.
> Tata & Ambani were very eager to bag the deal to produce obsolete F-16/21 & F-18. If GoI signed those deals then it could have killed AMCA & other projects.
> In the end the entire nation will suffer.
> Let's wait & see what Defence reforms GoI/MoD has this year like it said.