AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

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Galat jagah bakchodi mat karo bhai
Dont get into X or reddit fight between drdo and isro
Both groups provide retarded arguments
Those guys only read recent updates and make conclusion
They will never understand how much both the institutions are interconnected and manpower or scientists work

Even take a simple example of APJ Kalam and read in depth about his work you will get how stupid it is to compare both
you all are taking it in a wrong way, i am not making thought process with latest update

i meant to say that if isro's project starts at the target that lets get a rover on moon, it ends there, project over, and most of it is taught in colleges or training period
bits pilani ke kisi bhi 3rd year student se puchho jo ps1 ke liye wahan gaya hai, including sensors lab or engines lab or flight path directory lab, they are completely incompetetnt and political

but if drdo has a project, they have to consider 1000s of situations of their use cases, they cannot manage to go like ok 900 situation are good to go, these 100 are low probability we can ignore, no it doesnt happen

what i wanted to compare was, work culture and attitude towards work or a project of importance
isro people are always slacking on projects even though project definition says that project isnt complex, major research is not involved, still they delay as much as possible, pure sarkari attitude
and those in drdo, it has reduced, the sarkari attitude has gone down, the people there are passionate, working on projects even after time to meet timelines and project schedule, but they get delayed mainly due to babu level procurements or testing delays

i again say, i dont have intentions to compare, but it is frustration due to overcelebrating isro's achievements while neglecting all its issues
 
you all are taking it in a wrong way, i am not making thought process with latest update

i meant to say that if isro's project starts at the target that lets get a rover on moon, it ends there, project over, and most of it is taught in colleges or training period
bits pilani ke kisi bhi 3rd year student se puchho jo ps1 ke liye wahan gaya hai, including sensors lab or engines lab or flight path directory lab, they are completely incompetetnt and political

but if drdo has a project, they have to consider 1000s of situations of their use cases, they cannot manage to go like ok 900 situation are good to go, these 100 are low probability we can ignore, no it doesnt happen

what i wanted to compare was, work culture and attitude towards work or a project of importance
isro people are always slacking on projects even though project definition says that project isnt complex, major research is not involved, still they delay as much as possible, pure sarkari attitude
and those in drdo, it has reduced, the sarkari attitude has gone down, the people there are passionate, working on projects even after time to meet timelines and project schedule, but they get delayed mainly due to babu level procurements or testing delays

i again say, i dont have intentions to compare, but it is frustration due to overcelebrating isro's achievements while neglecting all its issues
Atleast on this forum no one over celebrate isro
U have already seen criticism in recent times regarding pslv failure
They both have complexities but different objectives
Yes defence related products have moving parts, it has to be used multiple times so it's must be easily serviceable maintainance should be easy and low operation cost
These problems are not faced by isro but they have their own set of problems these guys have to make robust payloads to last years complexity of propulsion is huge despite multiple successful missions
Every rocket u see have to be changed wrt to payload
It's not plug and play
Coming to personal opinions we can't argue nor comment nor generalize things on basis of it
I don't have luxury of speaking to bits pilani interns but what I have heard is exactly opposite but again I can't make conclusion out of it
So if u want to generalize then fine I wouldn't comment
 
Any expressions of interest in building AMCA through a company 50% controlled by HAL, 12.5% each by 4 other companies? I believe the deadline to express interest was 7th May.
 
The GOI has stopped competition. It owns the organisations involved in fighter development and production. It funds them. It will buy from the production company it owns. It is a monopoly situation. Producers enjoying a monopoly are not forced to compete and produce more efficiently to maintain sales as other companies are forced to produce more efficiently to maintain sales in a competitive market.

The position in India is not helped by the sole buyer of Indian fighters being the owner and financier of the sole producer. If the sole producer quoted 100 million to produce something where other companies would quote 70 or 80 million, the sole buyer may choose to order from the company it owns rather than than to order from a more efficient producer. Under those circumstances attempting to compete with the 'preferred supplier' cannot work. Not a risk worth taking.

If your view continues to prevail, expect the results achieved since LCA was started to prevail.

A rational consumer aims to get the greatest satisfaction from money spent when purchasing. It is rational to buy from an efficient producer.

I welcome a response but I hope that you incorporate some economics to support what you say in your response.

Let's not go in circles.
I told you briefly that economics of capitalism, communism, socialism are different. So you belonging to capitalist nation, should not expect full capitalism in India. Beyond that i'm not MBA or MA in economics. I can't tell you best business model.

Yes it is a DPSU monopoly situation but IAF is very upset with HAL, etc & GoI's global image is impacted. So GoI is sandwiched b/w DPSUs & private sector. Hence GoI has launched startups encouragement schemes of all types & every level. You can check "Bharat Shakti" YouTube channel hosted by veteran journalist Nitin Gokhale. They do floor visits of PSU & private firms in Aerospace & defence, old & new.

I got your point on sole buyer, sole producer, but India is not communist, so i don't think GoI itself being frustrated has stopped Tata, Ambani, Adani kind of people, unless you can share statement on GoI website.
Either these tycoons don't have ADA/DRDO kind of team or they don't wan't to venture into R&D. All they can do is assemble existing jet or make components for new one like AMCA. In that also they're crying.:smiley-crying::facepalm2::LOL:

As an Indian citizen & a techie i would expect these tycoons to come up with a preliminary design CAD at least 1st to showcase their competency & then demand profit, fame, etc. If they can't do it alone then form a conglomeration & share the work & risk. Othewise make the components & remain happy.

How about ATAAC (Ambani - Tata - Adani Aeronautical Conglomeration)?:oops::eeek::shocked:
They can still pitch for 5+gen TEDBF, 6gen & UCAVs.
And suppose if they can build a better jet & still GoI/IAF rejects it with invalid reasons then it'll topple the govt. without possibility of getting re-elected.

But remember 1 thing that in India or a soicalist mixed economy the private sector can never become a dictator/regulator. It is a very fundamental thing. Even with West it is G2G deals.

You can see examples of Indian Railways, Air India, etc where parts of the business have been privatised like food catering, etc.

So GoI can -
- neither compromise national security,
- nor support PSUs blindly anymore,
- nor let private sector dominate,
- nor leave them behind.

let's wait & see. What else can we do?
 
Finally.

Raksha Mantri Shri @rajnathsingh has approved the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Programme Execution Model. Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is set to execute the programme through Industry partnership.

View: https://x.com/DefenceMinIndia/status/1927219489130594523?t=Q9q04d-Cc0RV8F2oark3Jw&s=19

What does this exactly mean
Funds will be released now?
Or it has been fast tracked?
Or it has got some special status for faster development?
 
Lets hope a private firm steps up and take the charge of amca which will tackle the bureaucracy of hal and ada
I like the idea of abandoning HAL control of production. Dumping the doomed SPV idea and the even sillier HAL plus 4 other companies idea opens up the possibility of the AMCA project being successfully pursued. I just hope that there is an Indian company that feels able to take on the project.
 
It seems now one thing clear is
Indias problem isn't technical but communication
Clearly there is failure in communication between industry and ADA,HAL for development of AMCA
The delay 2-3 years happened on AMCA prototype development is also result not able to finalize the consortium although in parallel ADA has been developing technologies but we would've seen prototype by now.
No private company was willing to take risk of manufacturing AMCA despite govt approval
 
It seems now one thing clear is
Indias problem isn't technical but communication
Clearly there is failure in communication between industry and ADA,HAL for development of AMCA
The delay 2-3 years happened on AMCA prototype development is also result not able to finalize the consortium although in parallel ADA has been developing technologies but we would've seen prototype by now.
No private company was willing to take risk of manufacturing AMCA despite govt approval
I thought I read today that another invitation to express interest in building AMCA was being issued. Idea 1 (SPV) was a non-starter. Idea 2 (effectively a more confused SPV) was a non-starter. This new idea 3 might attract interest.

You mention that no private company was willing to take the risk of manufacturing AMCA despite government approval. You omitted to add 'with HAL in control'.
 
But had CCS not cleared the funds for AMCA prototype development? So is this only for the serial production of AMCA?
Wonder where were you till now,CCS has cleared prototype development year back

You mention that no private company was willing to take the risk of manufacturing AMCA despite government approval. You omitted to add 'with HAL in control'.
They would not take risk even if given full share and hal is kept out of it
I remember TATA proposed development of AMCA with foreign country
 
:yawn:
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yeah that was my doubt
AMCA program is in different phases
I think the thing which is announced today is for prototype development phase
Which is why i said should have been done 2-3 years back
What it seems is ADA will take minimum T0+2 years where T0=Commencement time for prototype rollout
This when no further delay happens
And T0 will take time to begin maybe 1 more year
So 4 years before amca takes flight
 
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