AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Bhartiya Sainik]

What is the point of speeding up production to save time and retaining an administration system that slows projects down by years before they enter accelerated production?

On AMCA, what is happening with production arrangements? I think it has gone from HAL manufacturing AMCA to a ridiculous partnership proposition where HAL could effectively slow a partner private company down to its speed to another ridiculous partnership proposition where HAL could effectively slow 4 partner private companies down to its speed. That proposition is not likely to work.

I think that no sensible company will commit to building or helping to build AMCA as a stakeholder without knowing when AMCA will be ordered and in what numbers.

The DoD units administration definitely needs a kick by PMO.

I'm not GoI/MoD, DoD, journalist or MBA, so i can't help you to deep-dive on the best business model, exact numbers, exact timeine, etc.
I'm talking about when AMCA prototypes should come out at the earliest & then the production units, no matter who makes it & how.
India needs its own 5+gen jet a.s.a.p. or it'll suffer in a large scale war.
So by increasing man-hours the time in years have to be reduced.
The metal cutting started in 2022 & 4 more years to go, so 7 years in 2020s Vs 4 years in 1980s for YF-22.
It is a collective delay by all ruling parties in last few decades & DoD units.

But a capitalist model won't work in socialist mixed economy.
This is a matter of national security 1st, the consumer is IAF, not about selling profit based gadgets to public, which our business tycoons need to understand. They'll get the money for the components they make, that's it.
If we loose a war then industry, the entire economy also suffers.

 

[Savageking456]

View: https://x.com/ang3lkenny/status/1926211827052003479?t=jq1JtNXtkqZl3AKpKZ0neQ&s=19

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

View: https://x.com/ang3lkenny/status/1926211827052003479?t=jq1JtNXtkqZl3AKpKZ0neQ&s=19

We citizens have been confused at an unprecedented scale by too many process/stages/tender names.

In last 15 years we have seen airframe shape iterations & evolution which is done with arranging the components. ADA shared CAD of mechanical structure. We see minute components also.
Hence a citizen would think that at least protoype construction is in full swing.
The factory workers know where to fit the components.

Now after 15 years this BEGINNING of detailed design & engineering of AIRFRAME.
We had CATIA kind of S/w since 2000s. So all these detailed CAD should have been finished by now, ready to be fed to lathe machines.
Now someone might say that general CAD is made for CCS approval then detailed CAD.
Then CCS delayed the approval.
Then someone might say that DPSU & private sector work share & business model is not final yet. Then why not?
So far only DPSUs have made designs & when 5gen is the only way forward then the components CAD should have been made proactively.

 

[liberalredditor]

inka metal cutting hi chal raha hai 2022 se, do you all remember???

Redirect Notice

looks like hal and south block babus are in porkistan to get their hilale pakistan awards

 

[Savageking456]

We citizens have been confused at an unprecedented scale by too many process/stages/tender names.

In last 15 years we have seen airframe shape iterations & evolution which is done with arranging the components. ADA shared CAD of mechanical structure. We see minute components also.
Hence a citizen would think that at least protoype construction is in full swing.
The factory workers know where to fit the components.

Now after 15 years this BEGINNING of detailed design & engineering of AIRFRAME.
We had CATIA kind of S/w since 2000s. So all these detailed CAD should have been finished by now, ready to be fed to lathe machines.
Now someone might say that general CAD is made for CCS approval then detailed CAD.
Then CCS delayed the approval.
Then someone might say that DPSU & private sector work share & business model is not final yet. Then why not?
So far only DPSUs have made designs & when 5gen is the only way forward then the components CAD should have been made proactively.

This ain't for research but for production

 

[Spitfire IX]

But a capitalist model won't work in socialist mixed economy.
This is a matter of national security 1st, the consumer is IAF, not about selling profit based gadgets to public, which our business tycoons need to understand. They'll get the money for the components they make, that's it.
If we loose a war then industry, the entire economy also suffers.

IMO your best chance of getting the fighters needed for the defence of your country is to recognise what I think other countries see - your approach to developing, building fighters does not work. A change of approach is required.

India makes loads of parts/aero structures for different foreign OEM's. How many of those are made by India's state-controlled companies?

If you are interested in supplying IAF with the means to defend your country, I suggest you should argue for a mixed economy in the aviation sector, not the state monopoly that seems to be so treasured by some despite it failing spectacularly to produce fighter aircraft in remotely the time scheduled. Even GOI recognises it does not work. If it worked, HAL would have been assigned the task of building production AMCA, wouldn't it?

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

This ain't for research but for production

Still the CADs should have been done proactively by now bcoz ADA has done all the design work so far.

 

[Savageking456]

Still the CADs should have been done proactively by now bcoz ADA has done all the design work so far.

Its done don't worry,we are just expecting full scaled prototype development now

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

IMO your best chance of getting the fighters needed for the defence of your country is to recognise what I think other countries see - your approach to developing, building fighters does not work. A change of approach is required.

India makes loads of parts/aero structures for different foreign OEM's. How many of those are made by India's state-controlled companies?

If you are interested in supplying IAF with the means to defend your country, I suggest you should argue for a mixed economy in the aviation sector, not the state monopoly that seems to be so treasured by some despite it failing spectacularly to produce fighter aircraft in remotely the time scheduled. Even GOI recognises it does not work. If it worked, HAL would have been assigned the task of building production AMCA, wouldn't it?

I've also said many times that LINEAR approach for a sub-continental size nation doesn't work - new project only after other flies.
Russia, USA, China, capitalist & communists, have made many jets in parallel for AF, Navy as & when required, different teams working independently.
But ADA has looked at LCA, MWF, TEDBF, AMCA linearly & finally this year IN indicated 5gen TEDBF which automatically makes fun of 4gen TEDBF & ADA.

Mixed economy means the private sector is free to do business but not inflate/dictate the cost like in capitalism. The govt. would intervene & regulate cost onl when required.
But in India the tycoons like Tata, Ambani, Adani, etc only wanna bag deal to produce already flying jets, not do any R&D & come up with their own designs.

ISRO has done well but not DoD, this needs investigation & crack-down.

 

[liberalredditor]

I've also said many times that LINEAR approach for a sub-continental size nation doesn't work - new project only after other flies.
Russia, USA, China, capitalist & communists, have made many jets in parallel for AF, Navy as & when required, different teams working independently.
But ADA has looked at LCA, MWF, TEDBF, AMCA linearly & finally this year IN indicated 5gen TEDBF which automatically makes fun of 4gen TEDBF & ADA.

Mixed economy means the private sector is free to do business but not inflate/dictate the cost like in capitalism. The govt. would intervene & regulate cost onl when required.
But in India the tycoons like Tata, Ambani, Adani, etc only wanna bag deal to produce already flying jets, not do any R&D & come up with their own designs.

ISRO has done well but not DoD, this needs investigation & crack-down.

isro has never done well, its the most overhyped org, you just dont have any idea of complexity of drdo projects

i have written a long rant in chitchat about drdo >> isro and my friends seniors experience while interning at both org

 

[Savageking456]

isro has never done well, its the most overhyped org, you just dont have any idea of complexity of drdo projects

i have written a long rant in chitchat about drdo >> isro and my friends seniors experience while interning at both org

I would like to read your rant

 

[liberalredditor]

• Post #6,261 chit chat

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

isro has never done well, its the most overhyped org, you just dont have any idea of complexity of drdo projects

i have written a long rant in chitchat about drdo >> isro and my friends seniors experience while interning at both org

All 30s/40s engineers are senior enough, some of whom into training those interns, & would have sufficient minimum idea about complexities of trans-atmospheric Aerospace vs endo-atmospheric flight.
Both these domains are huge, so it depends in which exact tiny office space the internship happened.
If ISRO completed Mangalyan project within Hollywood movie budget the it has definitely done well. But i'm also alware that more money = more tech on probes. We've GSLV, PSLV, etc to launch any satellite in any orbit. We don't have our own manned space mission yet like China, but that's not urgent.
When i say DoD, although it means an umbrella of many units, but w.r.t. AMCA it points to ADA, HAL mainly. DRDO has done well w.r.t. many things like missiles incl. PAD ASAT for example but lagging in some other things. Only initiating many things is not enough, completing in time is also important.

But most citizens don't have any idea of the management.

 

[liberalredditor]

All 30s/40s engineers are senior enough, some of whom into training those interns, & would have sufficient minimum idea about complexities of trans-atmospheric Aerospace vs endo-atmospheric flight.
Both these domains are huge, so it depends in which exact tiny office space the internship happened.
If ISRO completed Mangalyan project within Hollywood movie budget the it has definitely done well. But i'm also alware that more money = more tech on probes. We've GSLV, PSLV, etc to launch any satellite in any orbit. We don't have our own manned space mission yet like China, but that's not urgent.
When i say DoD, although it means an umbrella of many units, but w.r.t. AMCA it points to ADA, HAL mainly. DRDO has done well w.r.t. many things like missiles incl. PAD ASAT for example but lagging in some other things. Only initiating many things is not enough, completing in time is also important.

But most citizens don't have any idea of the management.

the thread would get derailed, i dont want a ban

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

the thread would get derailed, i dont want a ban

There are people here of all age groups & backgrounds.
If you'll pass personal comments like " you don't have any idea" then you might get ban at some point.
Many people today have senior/junior/batch-mate, relative, neighbor, etc working EVERYWHERE.
Let's get back to AMCA.

 

[Spitfire IX]

I've also said many times that LINEAR approach for a sub-continental size nation doesn't work - new project only after other flies.
Russia, USA, China, capitalist & communists, have made many jets in parallel for AF, Navy as & when required, different teams working independently.
But ADA has looked at LCA, MWF, TEDBF, AMCA linearly & finally this year IN indicated 5gen TEDBF which automatically makes fun of 4gen TEDBF & ADA.

Mixed economy means the private sector is free to do business but not inflate/dictate the cost like in capitalism. The govt. would intervene & regulate cost onl when required.
But in India the tycoons like Tata, Ambani, Adani, etc only wanna bag deal to produce already flying jets, not do any R&D & come up with their own designs.

ISRO has done well but not DoD, this needs investigation & crack-down.

I suspect HAL thinks in a linear manner eg build Tejas then use FAL to build Tejas Mk2 then...

I pointed out years ago that would not work eg more Mk1A orders = delay to Mk2/ HAL secures an export order for Mk1A = delay to Mk2. I'm not a production specialist but HAL's production planning looks like that of a 4 year old child to me.

You don't have a mixed economy for fighter production in India. You have a monopoly that has prevented any company but HAL access to fighter production. HAL is mostly owned by the government. The government gives contracts to the company it owns. The results have been terrible. Continue in that vein if you prefer failure to success.

Back to basics. GOI has made IAF responsible for defending your skies. To do that IAF needs fighters. India does not produce them. To do its job IAF has to buy them from other countries. I read many Indians complaining about IAF buying imported fighters. Many of those oppose changes to the established defective monopoly on development and production that ensures IAF has to import fighters to do its job!!!

 

[Anonymous Bharata]

isro has never done well, its the most overhyped org, you just dont have any idea of complexity of drdo projects

i have written a long rant in chitchat about drdo >> isro and my friends seniors experience while interning at both org

Don't bullshit here if you don't know anything about ISRO

Yes, DRDOs projects are highly complex , so are ISRO's

 

[jaijaganath]

isro has never done well, its the most overhyped org, you just dont have any idea of complexity of drdo projects

i have written a long rant in chitchat about drdo >> isro and my friends seniors experience while interning at both org

Galat jagah bakchodi mat karo bhai
Dont get into X or reddit fight between drdo and isro
Both groups provide retarded arguments
Those guys only read recent updates and make conclusion
They will never understand how much both the institutions are interconnected and manpower or scientists work

Even take a simple example of APJ Kalam and read in depth about his work you will get how stupid it is to compare both

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I suspect HAL thinks in a linear manner eg build Tejas then use FAL to build Tejas Mk2 then...

I pointed out years ago that would not work eg more Mk1A orders = delay to Mk2/ HAL secures an export order for Mk1A = delay to Mk2. I'm not a production specialist but HAL's production planning looks like that of a 4 year old child to me.

You don't have a mixed economy for fighter production in India. You have a monopoly that has prevented any company but HAL access to fighter production. HAL is mostly owned by the government. The government gives contracts to the company it owns. The results have been terrible. Continue in that vein if you prefer failure to success.

Back to basics. GOI has made IAF responsible for defending your skies. To do that IAF needs fighters. India does not produce them. To do its job IAF has to buy them from other countries. I read many Indians complaining about IAF buying imported fighters. Many of those oppose changes to the established defective monopoly on development and production that ensures IAF has to import fighters to do its job!!!

MWF is inflated LCA with new components, that can be called linear. But it has nothing to do with 5gen AMCA. What has a 4gen delta-canard to do with 5gen tandem bi-plane?
The components are made by DRDO kind of units, so many auxilliary components are concurrent for all jets. HAL assembles the jets.

Nobody is stopping Tata, Ambani, Adani kind of people to compete with ADA, DRDO, HAL. If they were willing to assemble F-16/18 then why not other jets? They dream of profit & fame like of LM, NG, Boeing, BAe, etc, but w/o R&D.

But India can never ever be fully capitalist or communist, it's something natural & difficult to explain.
Bcoz private companies put profit above everything hence in matters of national security, some govt. regulation has to be there. Even in West, national security is primary responsibility of govt., not some private firm.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Nobody is stopping Tata, Ambani, Adani kind of people to compete with ADA, DRDO, HAL. If they were willing to assemble F-16/18 then why not other jets? They dream of profit & fame like of LM, NG, Boeing, BAe, etc, but w/o R&D.

The GOI has stopped competition. It owns the organisations involved in fighter development and production. It funds them. It will buy from the production company it owns. It is a monopoly situation. Producers enjoying a monopoly are not forced to compete and produce more efficiently to maintain sales as other companies are forced to produce more efficiently to maintain sales in a competitive market.

The position in India is not helped by the sole buyer of Indian fighters being the owner and financier of the sole producer. If the sole producer quoted 100 million to produce something where other companies would quote 70 or 80 million, the sole buyer may choose to order from the company it owns rather than than to order from a more efficient producer. Under those circumstances attempting to compete with the 'preferred supplier' cannot work. Not a risk worth taking.

If your view continues to prevail, expect the results achieved since LCA was started to prevail.

A rational consumer aims to get the greatest satisfaction from money spent when purchasing. It is rational to buy from an efficient producer.

I welcome a response but I hope that you incorporate some economics to support what you say in your response.