AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Migflug]

This is a colossal frickin disaster.

All the smart people here were saying we don't need to buy 5th gen, we need to put all our eggs in the AMCA basket, because atmanirbharta and all the other fluff.

Meanwhile, this is realistically not going to be inducted before 2037-38 if things go to plan (big IF), when our enemies will be flying 6th gen and testing 7th gen aircraft.

Bloody Pakis will close the capability gap and actually get an edge over us in the next 5 years.

Meanwhile our great leaders can twiddle their frickin thumbs and indulge in bravado and self aggrandizing behavior for the domestic audience, waiting for Pakis and Chinis to completely destroy the threat perception of our AF.

Great effing job.

And this is not even touching on the numbers part, where we are horribly short of the required 40 plus squadrons.

Yeah lets invest in AD and missiles and pray that it will be enough to deter our foes.

There is no universe in which AMCA will enter production before 2040; all these 2035 dates are unrealistic, which is theoretically implausible. Any normal jet has a development period of 20 years, so realistically, AMCA will come in mid-2040s if it follows a normal development path, if compressed, it could be shrunk by 5 years, no way a 10-year compression which our infamous PSUs are promising!!

 

[redpanda]

Now all the F35 dalals on the thread will get activated from their stasis to spew their bs.

 

[Noob_Saibot]

There is no universe in which AMCA will enter production before 2040; all these 2035 dates are unrealistic, which is theoretically implausible. Any normal jet has a development period of 20 years, so realistically, AMCA will come in mid-2040s if it follows a normal development path, if compressed, it could be shrunk by 5 years, no way a 10-year compression which our infamous PSUs are promising!!

And looking at the glorious track record of the Tejas, there is no way this thing is going to be inducted before the 2040s.

We are basically f*****d.

That Su 57 is looking very very good now, irrespective of how you judge its capabilities.

We cannot wait till the 2040s while our enemies are strengthening in every way.

I don't think we have ever had a capability gap against yhe PAF in our history. It's a scary proposition to think PAF will have a more modern and stronger AF than us in a few years. And you can bet anything on the fact that the Chinese are going to supply at least a couple of squadrons of their latest 5th gen toy to the Pakis.

I blame the government and our vaunted leaders for this sorry predicament. Their lethargy and apathy has led us to this very precarious situation we find ourselves in.

 

[Noob_Saibot]

Now all the F35 dalals on the thread will get activated from their stasis to spew their bs.

Please list our options. I am all ears.

What do you propose we do, given the fact that our new toy will not see action before the mid 2040s?

Wait around and pray that the Pakis/Chinese do nothing to take advantage?

 

[redpanda]

Please list our options. I am all ears.

What do you propose we do, given the fact that our new toy will not see action before the mid 2040s?

Wait around and pray that the Pakis/Chinese do nothing to take advantage?

And how do you think it will take 2040? It's like you are proposing we don't have any infrastructure to build a jet?

 

[LastMythin]

There is no universe in which AMCA will enter production before 2040; all these 2035 dates are unrealistic, which is theoretically implausible. Any normal jet has a development period of 20 years, so realistically, AMCA will come in mid-2040s if it follows a normal development path, if compressed, it could be shrunk by 5 years, no way a 10-year compression which our infamous PSUs are promising!!

they are building off of existing tech, iteration time gets shorter as the tech gets normalized

 

[Migflug]

And looking at the glorious track record of the Tejas, there is no way this thing is going to be inducted before the 2040s.

We are basically f*****d.

That Su 57 is looking very very good now, irrespective of how you judge its capabilities.

We cannot wait till the 2040s while our enemies are strengthening in every way.

I don't think we have ever had a capability gap against yhe PAF in our history. It's a scary proposition to think PAF will have a more modern and stronger AF than us in a few years. And you can bet anything on the fact that the Chinese are going to supply at least a couple of squadrons of their latest 5th gen toy to the Pakis.

I blame the government and our vaunted leaders for this sorry predicament. Their lethargy and apathy has led us to this very precarious situation we find ourselves in.

Totally on the Modi government. AMCA should have been sanctioned in 2015 or at least by 2020 after the Dokhlam. But we are not exactly a nation known for its long-term strategic vision!!

 

[Noob_Saibot]

And how do you think it will take 2040? It's like you are proposing we don't have any infrastructure to build a jet?

Ok , straight question. When do you think we will have our first squadron of the AMCA?

When do you think the Napaks will get their first 5th gen?

Do you agree the Chinese will be flying 6th gen fighters by then?

 

[Noob_Saibot]

Totally on the Modi government. AMCA should have been sanctioned in 2015 or at least by 2020 after the Dokhlam. But we are not exactly a nation known for its long-term strategic vision!!

Now we will pay the price, literally (through panic purchases) or figuratively(when the Pakis become further emboldened to transgress).

 

[Migflug]

they are building off of existing tech, iteration time gets shorter as the tech gets normalized

Even a MK2 is taking more than 3 years for prototype and will enter production in the 2030s, and we are talking about building a next-gen fighter jet fully into production in 10 years. Simply impossible!!

 

[redpanda]

Ok , straight question. When do you think we will have our first squadron of the AMCA?

When do you think the Napaks will get their first 5th gen?

Do you agree the Chinese will be flying 6th gen fighters by then?

2035-2036. Maybe 2037-38 if it's late. I'm not against Stop gaps but I think our only option is Su57 that's it, but that also is another rabit hole. It isn't a good stealth aircraft and we will have to do a lot of work on it to fine tune it for our need. And F35 is absolute no go zone, it will be a nightmare to integrate + there is the whole F35 US backend drama.

 

[sameer]

We should consider the pros and cons of joining the Japanese project. Infact the option of South Korean 5th gen jet should be explored aswell. We are in a desperate situation. What if the 2034 deadline is missed. There should be a parallel backup plan. In all likelihood Japanese program will be completed earlier than AMCA 2034. It's s sixth gen craft. Also, though the south korean aircraft has been produced with US help, we should just check it if it can fit the bill for us.

True, Japanese are targeting 2035 induction for GCAP, so If that timeline stands accurate, then it might be a good idea to test the waters.

Btw Kf21 is 4.5+ gen, not true 5th gen. it lacks structural stealth/IWB etc.

 

[LastMythin]

And looking at the glorious track record of the Tejas, there is no way this thing is going to be inducted before the 2040s.

We are basically f*****d.

That Su 57 is looking very very good now, irrespective of how you judge its capabilities.

We cannot wait till the 2040s while our enemies are strengthening in every way.

I don't think we have ever had a capability gap against yhe PAF in our history. It's a scary proposition to think PAF will have a more modern and stronger AF than us in a few years. And you can bet anything on the fact that the Chinese are going to supply at least a couple of squadrons of their latest 5th gen toy to the Pakis.

I blame the government and our vaunted leaders for this sorry predicament. Their lethargy and apathy has led us to this very precarious situation we find ourselves in.

su-57 is a scammy vapor wave that even ruzzia has not started inducting in large numbers and they are at war rn. Su-30mk1 took years of work for it to become truly usable for us.
The lack of production of the su-57 means it will be at minimum be ready for large phoren export only in the early 2030's.
Then we have to spend years fine tuning it to our needs considering its seeming shortcomings and the lack of maturing in several sections.
Best case scenario for large scale su-57 deployment is late 2030's.
SO nothing we can except look for asymmetrical solutions to keep up.

 

[Migflug]

Now we will pay the price, literally (through panic purchases) or figuratively(when the Pakis become further emboldened to transgress).

And we will continue to do so well into the 50s. When the AMCA materializes in the late 30s, China would have started the 6th gen production, and they would well be in a position to hand over a couple of squadrons to Pakistan in the early 40s. We will then again rush to either the USA or Europe to provide us the "stop gap" 6th gen jet, just like what we will be doing in the next two years for the "5th Gen"!!

 

[redpanda]

And we will continue to do so well into the 50s. When the AMCA materializes in the late 30s, China would have started the 6th gen production, and they would well be in a position to hand over a couple of squadrons to Pakistan in the early 40s. We will then again rush to either the USA or Europe to provide us the "stop gap" 6th gen jet, just like what we will be doing in the next two years for the "5th Gen"!!

Define a 6th gen aircraft. Also tell if India is able to make 5th gen aircraft in mid 2030s then why wouldn't it able to make 6th gen? What's so special about 6th gen jets gonna be that India wouldn't be able to make it?

Going from 4th gen to 5th gen is a big leap but 5th to 6th won't be that hard.

 

[Nibbler]

YOU LOOSE !
Egypt first,
Quatar second
India only third customer.

And in term of Qty, UAE > India.

IF INDIA REALLY DIDN'T NEED THIS BIRD, THERE WERE SO MANY OTHER POSSIBILITY..... Why didn't India clinch a Mig 35 deal? a EF2000 deal? a SH18 for navy deal?

So stop. Be serious man.

So why did you inked this deal? Are you all fools ?

You seems not to know that this price is not only for 26 birds. But also multiyears support (even probably for IAF), new batch of weapons, new training equipments....

Stop your french basching please.

qu'est ce que c'est monsuier

Je demander un BAGUETTE du fromage for 60k crore

 

[Migflug]

Define a 6th gen aircraft. Also tell if India is able to make 5th gen aircraft in mid 2030s then why wouldn't it able to make 6th gen? What's so special about it that Indian wouldn't be able to?

The most accepted definition of a 6th fighter jet is having a variable cycle engine(6th gen engine like XA100/101, TWR>12), 5th gen have 5th gen engine(F135/F119, TWR>10,BPR>30 ), 4th gen(TFR>8 like F414,EJ200). We are yet to make a fully functional 4th-generation engine. We have been searching for a partner for a 5th-generation engine for AMCA for almost a decade now. So, if we follow any normal development cycle, we won't have either a 6th gen fighter jet/engine in the early 40s, while China will already have those in production!!

 

[LastMythin]

Even a MK2 is taking more than 3 years for prototype and will enter production in the 2030s, and we are talking about building a next-gen fighter jet fully into production in 10 years. Simply impossible!!

the biggest roadblocks are advanced subsystems, countries like ruzzia, xina and merica had a lot of time and money so they basically could experiment with what they exactly wanted and what actually worked in real life conditions. Since we are once iterating on existing tech and knowhow less time needs to spend on there development, We are also good ways into developing AMCA subsystems indigenously. Most importantly there are off the shelf options available when we get too stuck, sure they are expensive and suboptimal but we can replace with our own shit in future iteration.
This is pretty much what korea did with kf-21's buy what you cannot make and wait for future iterations to sort it out.

 

[redpanda]

The most accepted definition of a 6th fighter jet is having a variable cycle engine(6th gen engine like XA100/101, TWR>12), 5th gen have 5th gen engine(F135/F119, TWR>10,BPR>30 ), 4th gen(TFR>8 like F414,EJ200). We are yet to make a fully functional 4th-generation engine. We have been searching for a partner for a 5th-generation engine for AMCA for almost a decade now. So, if we follow any normal development cycle, we won't have either a 6th gen fighter jet/engine in the early 40s, while China will already have those in production!!

They don't have a 6th gen engine either my friend. So they are putting three 4.5th gen engine into it. If that thing can be called 6th gen? Then we surely will find ways to use whatever 5th gen engine we will have access to do build something to make a pseudo-6th gen jet as stop-gap.

 

[LastMythin]

The most accepted definition of a 6th fighter jet is having a variable cycle engine(6th gen engine like XA100/101, TWR>12), 5th gen have 5th gen engine(F135/F119, TWR>10,BPR>30 ), 4th gen(TFR>8 like F414,EJ200). We are yet to make a fully functional 4th-generation engine. We have been searching for a partner for a 5th-generation engine for AMCA for almost a decade now. So, if we follow any normal development cycle, we won't have either a 6th gen fighter jet/engine in the early 40s, while China will already have those in production!!

We have not seen what a "true" 6 gen engine is capable. Ruzzia is no where near to accomplishing it and xina is cheating the engine game by trying to make the tri-engine fighter. The rest including merica seem to be building the 6th gen engine by iterating on pre-existing 5th gen tech advancements. Let's see where the engine games goes