AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Spitfire IX]

And how do you think it will take 2040? It's like you are proposing we don't have any infrastructure to build a jet?

How long has there been a flying test bed? India used Russian to test Kaveri.
How long have there been suitable wind tunnels? India used French for Tejas Mk2 inlet.
How long has there been a cold chamber?
Now long has there been a high altitude chamber?
Anything else essential to fast jet or fast jet engine development missing?

India has not invested in the tools needed to develop fighter aircraft. Why? Ask the GOI's of the last 40 years.

It is refreshing to hear that the public in India are now pushing GOI to start taking India's air defence more seriously.

 

[Hari Sud]

There is no universe in which AMCA will enter production before 2040; all these 2035 dates are unrealistic, which is theoretically implausible. Any normal jet has a development period of 20 years, so realistically, AMCA will come in mid-2040s if it follows a normal development path, if compressed, it could be shrunk by 5 years, no way a 10-year compression which our infamous PSUs are promising!!

BS

 

[Spitfire IX]

Please list our options. I am all ears.

What do you propose we do, given the fact that our new toy will not see action before the mid 2040s?

Wait around and pray that the Pakis/Chinese do nothing to take advantage?

That is one of the consequences of seeing serious problems heading your way and failing to respond by doing something to avoid/mitigate/counter the serious problems you see heading towards you.

Good question about what to do now. Even if AMCA deliveries could start before 2035, that would probably leave India facing a 5G armed adversary for several years with IAF having no 5G fighters and a critical shortage of modern 4G fighters.

It seems to me that soon would be a good time to start praying that Pakistan does nothing to take advantage.

The first responsibility of any country's government is to provide for the defence of the realm. Successive GOI's have failed abysmally to do that where the IAF is concerned, haven't they?

 

[Ajatshatru]

So why did Dassault enter the mmrca and mrfa tender???

Frenchies have got some special rights or what to charge us exorbitantly high for 26 birds??? Why so much ego and attitude bro, if we wouldnt have brought 36 rafales you wouldnt have got 50k crores, not a small amount
We are buying, we are the buyer, we can show as much ego as we want, dont tell us what should we buy and at what price

Dont worry, last import hai may be ye 40 rafale ya su57
Iske baad to full atmanirbhar

He is french he doesn’t understand hindi

 

[E-195]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOllpsniExI


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HiuvIXawR8

 

[E-195]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OET5TY_wu_c

 

[angryindian]

RCS of :

• Su 57 is between 0.1 and 0.5 square meters
• J 35 is 0.2 to 0.3 square meters
• J 20 is ~0.01 square meters

The Russians are reportedly already training Algerian pilots on flying the Su 57E and it is expected that in a few years time deliveries will start.

Have the RCS values of the Su-57 been independently verified? I've read conflicting media reports questioning its stealth capabilities, with some analysts claiming its RCS is comparable to that of 4.5-generation aircraft.

Given the history of Soviet-era weapons, which were often plagued by structural and design flaws, poor build quality, reliability, performance, and maintenance issues, purchasing the Su-57 may not be a wise choice.

 

[angryindian]

You are correct to doubt the Russians, but if we negotiate for full assembly line set up for SU57 and TOT for some critical components this can be workable akin to MKI,
F35 even if we get early than SU57 will come with no access to any Indian integrations and India will be forever depending on USA deep state for its strategic requirements

No country provides a complete transfer of technology. Russia did not provide full TOT for the Su-30MKI despite India’s significant investment. Therefore, expecting a complete technology transfer for the Su-57 is unrealistic.

And while India views Russia as an “all-weather friend,” Russia often perceives India primarily as a financial opportunity. In the past, Russia has misled India by selling inferior equipment at inflated prices

Besides as i said before, if the Su-57 proves to be unproven or underperforming, India would lose not only money but also valuable time and resources.

 

[Tumba]

No country provides a complete transfer of technology. Russia did not provide full TOT for the Su-30MKI despite India’s significant investment. Therefore, expecting a complete technology transfer for the Su-57 is unrealistic.

And while India views Russia as an “all-weather friend,” Russia often perceives India primarily as a financial opportunity. In the past, Russia has misled India by selling inferior equipment at inflated prices

Besides as i said before, if the Su-57 proves to be unproven or underperforming, India would lose not only money but also valuable time and resources.

SU57 with Indian enhancements will become a great replacement for MKI with similar capabilities although with next generation.

AMCA will replace Mirage2K, Mig29, Jaguars

So there is a space for heavy fighter with long range in IAF

In case we go with SU57MKI we will have great Airforce by 2040 or so

Heavy
SU57 MKI (If we negotiate a deal in next couple of years could see first SU 57 MKI produced in India by 2031 or so) - 80+

SU30 MKI(We can negotiate MKI upgrade with SU57 where we need Russian support like engine and jammers) - 270

Medium
AMCA - (If production start by 2035) - 40+
Rafale - 36+40
Tejas MK2 - (If production start by 2030) - 150+

Light
Tejas MK1/MK1A - 200+

With focus on Tejas numbers we could easily go beyond 42 squadron target…

Enough to deter chinis and crush porkis

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Have the RCS values of the Su-57 been independently verified? I've read conflicting media reports questioning its stealth capabilities, with some analysts claiming its RCS is comparable to that of 4.5-generation aircraft.

Given the history of Soviet-era weapons, which were often plagued by structural and design flaws, poor build quality, reliability, performance, and maintenance issues, purchasing the Su-57 may not be a wise choice.

The overall design looks stealthy but it is nowhere near the paper plane AMCA which uses DSI + S Shaped Inlet design. SU-57 have exposed turbine and their way of reducing RCS is RAM coatings and using an slanted metal infront of intakes which blocks the turbine.

Bigger problem will be the Russian Engines which will be known for poor MTBO. Since we saw DRDO/HAL bashing tweet. People should also remember the same DRDO/HAL worked to improve the MTBO for our AL-31s. Since it is not some shiny weapon work, we are not giving credit to them.

Also the new 5th Gen engine (AL-51) that russians were working where still work in progress. So even the fifth gen SU-57 don't have an 5th Gen engine.

We are going with Western style engine where we have performance and good MTBO. F414 is for prototypes. But time is running out if they really want an 130KN new engine.

Also, my concern is on the payload. Currently it can carry 4 bvr or 2 bvr/2 bombs. Not enough, ADA should work on optimizing the IWB to carry min 6 AA missiles. They should look into SWB for carrying AA missile if the mission profile is more A2G where we need standoff weapons in IWB.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Have the RCS values of the Su-57 been independently verified? I've read conflicting media reports questioning its stealth capabilities, with some analysts claiming its RCS is comparable to that of 4.5-generation aircraft.

Given the history of Soviet-era weapons, which were often plagued by structural and design flaws, poor build quality, reliability, performance, and maintenance issues, purchasing the Su-57 may not be a wise choice.

The only figure regarding the targeted RCS of an SU 57 we have is a patent from Sukhoi which mentions 0.1 - 1 msq.

Details of the Sukhoi Design Bureau's work on the stealthy aspects of the T-50 PAK FA fighter aircraft emerged in late December 2013, when the company's patents were published.

According to the patent paperwork, taken together, all of the stealthy measures offer significant improvements over legacy fighter designs. The papers claim that the radar cross-section (RCS) of an Su-27 was in the order of 10-15 m 2 , with the intention being to reduce the size of the RCS in the T-50 to an "average figure of 0.1-1 m 2 ".

PAK FA stealth features patent published - IHS Jane's 360

Su-57 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction Su-57 is the first aircraft in Russian military service designed with stealth technology, it is intended to replace Su-27/30/35 family and server as the Russian answer to the American …

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

F-35 vs J-20 vs Su-57 Summary

Introduction Previously, we have done HFSS simulation to evaluate the mean and median radar cross section as well as the radar scattering pattern of the four common stealth fighters namely F-35A, S…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

The Rafale has a similar figure however an aircraft that is able to keep weapons in internal bays with a large fuel capacity will always be stealthier than one carrying them on pylons.

Rafale-C radar scattering simulation

Introduction Rafale is a French twin-engine, canard delta wing, multirole fighter aircraft designed and built by Dassault Aviation. Rafale was developed as the 4.5 generation fighter intended to re…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Given how picky the IAF is, it will iron out most of the achievable stealth and manufacturing defects of the Su 57E. However as of late I see that the IAF is at least considering the Su 57E realistically despite it's inherent flaws.

Key Technologies for Su-57E, Including AL-51F Engine and 2D TVC, Still Under Development, Casting Doubt on India's Potential 5th-Gen Choice

A senior Indian Air Force (IAF) official has revealed that the Su-57E, Russia's export variant of its fifth-generation stealth fighter, is facing significant delays. According to the official, the...

defence.in

BTW I don't think IAF will ever consider the F 35A due to sheer similarity in role and configuration to the AMCA (stealthy multirole strike aircraft with secondary focus on air superiority).

Given how the F 35A has problems with operational readiness and supply issues, IAF would want an aircraft that it can atleast fly in a conflict instead of a $200 million+ hangar queen.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

@redpanda , others,
Firstpost, a reputed Indian news channel with multi-national presence, reports 2031 as roll-out year of prototype.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4eHa4pE0fQ

"Fund Kaveri" trend has emerged online but AFAIK, no news channel is asking questions like what happened in last 15 years? Why we didn't use AL-31 engines for R&D when China used it for J-20? Or why we didn't ask USA for F100/110 engines used in their F-15/16?

AMCA's design needs to be modified if it's delayed beyond 2035 IMHO. AMCA in its current design seems inadequate in strike role.

Yes, its side space can be made modular like F-15 has side attachment of CFT, modified for 2 AAMs in Silent Eagle concept. The IWB has sufficient space but what it needs is custom size weapons like USA is making.

The most accepted definition of a 6th fighter jet is having a variable cycle engine(6th gen engine like XA100/101, TWR>12), 5th gen have 5th gen engine(F135/F119, TWR>10,BPR>30 ), 4th gen(TFR>8 like F414,EJ200). We are yet to make a fully functional 4th-generation engine. We have been searching for a partner for a 5th-generation engine for AMCA for almost a decade now. So, if we follow any normal development cycle, we won't have either a 6th gen fighter jet/engine in the early 40s, while China will already have those in production!!

6gen adds some more weapons, fuel, electricity, computing, DEW-CIWS, VCE, CyW, etc.
Engine TWR & BPR are not key characteristics to classify bcoz some new parts have been added to 5gen engine & 6gen VCE, inside & outside attachment. Just adding/reducing engine weight by parts, materials doesn't increase/decrease thrust. People use ETWR just to initially guess a new engine briefly.
BPR is just 1 of factors affecting thrust, others are OPR, fuel-air mix ratio, fuel type, combustor design, TET, turbine blades & vane design, etc.

SU57 with Indian enhancements will become a great replacement for MKI with similar capabilities although with next generation.

AMCA will replace Mirage2K, Mig29, Jaguars

So there is a space for heavy fighter with long range in IAF

In case we go with SU57MKI we will have great Airforce by 2040 or so

Heavy
SU57 MKI (If we negotiate a deal in next couple of years could see first SU 57 MKI produced in India by 2031 or so) - 80+

IDK about ADA but across India there can be creative engineers who could design something better than Su-57. I find it difficult to digest how Russia can make such big blunder mistakes by leaving some features of Su-57 half-cooked, unstealthy.
If MoD/DoD wanna save money then simply inflate AMCA with AL-31/41/F-100/110 engine, like LCA inflated to MWF. Just like China used AL-31 for J-20, this could have been done by us after exiting PAKFA. AFAIK, no youtuber or news channel have spoken about this.

 

[redpanda]

@Bhartiya Sainik

"Firstpost, a reputed Indian news channel with multi-national presence, reports 2031 as roll-out year of prototype."

They take news from other media. They are likely reporting this based on The print article. My point is simple everyone is saying 10 year window from now. That is 2025-2035. That's literally the same timeline. If the prototype had shifted to 2031 then naturally the expected year of induction would have also shifted but it hasn't. What I think is media houses are misquoting or misunderstanding something. Our media don't even know difference between S-400 and Akash my friend, they have habit of misinterpreting.

 

[randombully]

@redpanda , others,
Firstpost, a reputed Indian news channel with multi-national presence, reports 2031 as roll-out year of prototype.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4eHa4pE0fQ

"Fund Kaveri" trend has emerged online but AFAIK, no news channel is asking questions like what happened in last 15 years? Why we didn't use AL-31 engines for R&D when China used it for J-20? Or why we didn't ask USA for F100/110 engines used in their F-15/16?


Yes, its side space can be made modular like F-15 has side attachment of CFT, modified for 2 AAMs in Silent Eagle concept. The IWB has sufficient space but what it needs is custom size weapons like USA is making.


6gen adds some more weapons, fuel, electricity, computing, DEW-CIWS, VCE, CyW, etc.
Engine TWR & BPR are not key characteristics to classify bcoz some new parts have been added to 5gen engine & 6gen VCE, inside & outside attachment. Just adding/reducing engine weight by parts, materials doesn't increase/decrease thrust. People use ETWR just to initially guess a new engine briefly.
BPR is just 1 of factors affecting thrust, others are OPR, fuel-air mix ratio, fuel type, combustor design, TET, turbine blades & vane design, etc.



IDK about ADA but across India there can be creative engineers who could design something better than Su-57. I find it difficult to digest how Russia can make such big blunder mistakes by leaving some features of Su-57 half-cooked, unstealthy.
If MoD/DoD wanna save money then simply inflate AMCA with AL-31/41/F-100/110 engine, like LCA inflated to MWF. Just like China used AL-31 for J-20, this could have been done by us after exiting PAKFA. AFAIK, no youtuber or news channel have spoken about this.

Iaf has Said that plans for 6th gen( ie bigger stealth jet with more electrical power and next gen sensors) are on-going, and they will start pursuing 6th gen jet when amca prototype starts flying, so work on a bigger stealth jet will begin in early 2030s, and given most of the tech going in amca will be 6th gen level or form a solid base for 6th gen tech( and tech advancement will continue, for future upgrades of amca) Means, the 6th gen jet( bigger with more electrical power)can be developed in relatively less time than amca and enter service by ~2045.

 

[randombully]

@redpanda , others,
Firstpost, a reputed Indian news channel with multi-national presence, reports 2031 as roll-out year of prototype.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4eHa4pE0fQ

"Fund Kaveri" trend has emerged online but AFAIK, no news channel is asking questions like what happened in last 15 years? Why we didn't use AL-31 engines for R&D when China used it for J-20? Or why we didn't ask USA for F100/110 engines used in their F-15/16?


Yes, its side space can be made modular like F-15 has side attachment of CFT, modified for 2 AAMs in Silent Eagle concept. The IWB has sufficient space but what it needs is custom size weapons like USA is making.


6gen adds some more weapons, fuel, electricity, computing, DEW-CIWS, VCE, CyW, etc.
Engine TWR & BPR are not key characteristics to classify bcoz some new parts have been added to 5gen engine & 6gen VCE, inside & outside attachment. Just adding/reducing engine weight by parts, materials doesn't increase/decrease thrust. People use ETWR just to initially guess a new engine briefly.
BPR is just 1 of factors affecting thrust, others are OPR, fuel-air mix ratio, fuel type, combustor design, TET, turbine blades & vane design, etc.



IDK about ADA but across India there can be creative engineers who could design something better than Su-57. I find it difficult to digest how Russia can make such big blunder mistakes by leaving some features of Su-57 half-cooked, unstealthy.
If MoD/DoD wanna save money then simply inflate AMCA with AL-31/41/F-100/110 engine, like LCA inflated to MWF. Just like China used AL-31 for J-20, this could have been done by us after exiting PAKFA. AFAIK, no youtuber or news channel have spoken about this.

View: https://youtu.be/QgsKTDmPzoQ?si=1QDGyDkvdUAKZpLK
reputed Indian defense youtube channel with some connections in defense industries and MOD ,reports 2031 as full swing production year of amca "mk1".

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

@Bhartiya Sainik

"Firstpost, a reputed Indian news channel with multi-national presence, reports 2031 as roll-out year of prototype."

They take news from other media. They are likely reporting this based on The print article. My point is simple everyone is saying 10 year window from now. That is 2025-2035. That's literally the same timeline. If the prototype had shifted to 2031 then naturally the expected year of induction would have also shifted but it hasn't. What I think is media houses are misquoting or misunderstanding something. Our media don't even know difference between S-400 and Akash my friend, they have habit of misinterpreting.

1 thing i can agree that our media is poorly educated in Defence technology.
Even old journalists like Shiv Aroor from "India Today" , Vishnu Som from NDTV, Nitin Gokhale from "Bharat Shakti", etc are not up to the mark.
I'm yet to see a techie or semi-techie turned reporter.

 

[Migflug]

View: https://youtu.be/QgsKTDmPzoQ?si=1QDGyDkvdUAKZpLK
reputed Indian defense youtube channel with some connections in defense industries and MOD ,reports 2031 as full swing production year of amca "mk1".

I think it was a mispronunciation; he probably meant to say 'prototype.'

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Iaf has Said that plans for 6th gen( ie bigger stealth jet with more electrical power and next gen sensors) are on-going, and they will start pursuing 6th gen jet when amca prototype starts flying, so work on a bigger stealth jet will begin in early 2030s, and given most of the tech going in amca will be 6th gen level or form a solid base for 6th gen tech( and tech advancement will continue, for future upgrades of amca) Means, the 6th gen jet( bigger with more electrical power)can be developed in relatively less time than amca and enter service by ~2045.

English can be a funny language creating confusion often:
"plans are ongoing"(present tense) but "they'll start after AMCA flies", "work will begin in 2030s" (future tense).

View: https://youtu.be/QgsKTDmPzoQ?si=1QDGyDkvdUAKZpLK
reputed Indian defense youtube channel with some connections in defense industries and MOD ,reports 2031 as full swing production year of amca "mk1".

Since beginning i've followed & randomly watched many videos of many youtubers like follwing:



I do appreciate their effort but most of them are 20s non-techie youngsters earning money from YouTube, some are independent journalists. They are dedicated in defence domain, so slightly ahead of media houses.
I joined some of their Discord groups few years back which was horrible experience, most young members are from school, college, don't respect elders & qualified/experienced citizens. They dont like feedback & corrections to improve their channels. Since then i stopped commenting on their YT videos, tweets, FB groups, etc.
But still i continue to watch their videos in my feed, no harm in that.

 

[randombully]

English can be a funny language creating confusion often:
"plans are ongoing"(present tense) but "they'll start after AMCA flies", "work will begin in 2030s" (future tense).



Since beginning i've followed & randomly watched many videos of many youtubers like follwing:

View attachment 37531

I do appreciate their effort but most of them are 20s non-techie youngsters earning money from YouTube, some are independent journalists. They are dedicated in defence domain, so slightly ahead of media houses.
I joined some of their Discord groups few years back which was horrible experience, most young members are from school, college, don't respect elders & qualified/experienced citizens. They dont like feedback & corrections to improve their channels. Since then i stopped commenting on their YT videos, tweets, FB groups, etc.
But still i continue to watch their videos in my feed, no harm in that.

By plans iaf meant, setting up the requirements.
Like how amca program got go ahead in 2018 after we left fgfa program, but before 2018 drdo was showing amca models doing basic configuration work by itself in hope of getting the program started.

 

[randombully]

I think it was a mispronunciation; he probably meant to say 'prototype.'

He used the word "full swing production" twice, with confidence.
Watch the video