AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

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By plans iaf meant, setting up the requirements.
Like how amca program got go ahead in 2018 after we left fgfa program, but before 2018 drdo was showing amca models doing basic configuration work by itself in hope of getting the program started.

I fear same tea-talks :tea:& booze-brainstorming:drunk2:will happen for many years for 6gen.:facepalm2::ROFLMAO:
Just releasing tons of documents on tiny parts & fooling non-techie citizens, can't even complete CAD on time.:facepalm2:⌛It is like some people in office tapping keyboard randomly to make others hear that they're busy. And then some people say that after AMCA, IAF's next jet will be 7gen hypersonic space fighter.
🧑‍🚀🚀:faint::faint2::fyeah::gtfo::facepalm4:

Bcoz IDRW, IADN & others have started reporting talks on our 6gen, let's mark 2025 as start point & see how things will progress.🐢🐇
NOTE - DoD has 10s of 1000s of employees. ADA has 1000+ techies. So a separate, dedicated team is required for new project, if existing people are fully engaged.
IAF is just operator. they can provide test pilots & feedback but nobody to oppose starting 6gen :eric::facepalm4:
If we want to catch up with world & absorb our population into industry then the requirement have to come as per global standards.
CAUTION
- DoD techies & civillian techies, both are techies & both are humans with families. But due to startups, private sector coming in, PPP, the civillian techies might surprise DoD techies by working faster.
 
Bcoz IDRW, IADN & others have started reporting talks on our 6gen, let's mark 2025 as start point & see how things will progress.🐢🐇
6G? Interesting to consider what could be involved, what tech would need to be developed. What do you do about an engine, though? I guess it would take a couple of decades or more to develop an advanced engine in India and GOI would have to commit to investing at least 20-30 times as much as it has been prepared to invest in Kaveri over the lifetime of that programme.

Variable cycle looks like a huge, immensely expensive technical challenge. Could India take it on by itself? The JV approach on an engine for AMCA seems not to have got far in the last 10 years. My guess is that India wants more TOT than OEM's are prepared to give and/or at a price they will not accept and possibly that they want control of project management to avoid risking the project descending into the chaos seen in so many domestic projects. Why else would none of them sign up to it? I presume the chances of a 6G engine JV would suffer the same fate.

Not wanting to sound pessimistic but you need to be realistic if you want to attain objectives.
 
6G? Interesting to consider what could be involved, what tech would need to be developed. What do you do about an engine, though? I guess it would take a couple of decades or more to develop an advanced engine in India and GOI would have to commit to investing at least 20-30 times as much as it has been prepared to invest in Kaveri over the lifetime of that programme.

Variable cycle looks like a huge, immensely expensive technical challenge. Could India take it on by itself? The JV approach on an engine for AMCA seems not to have got far in the last 10 years. My guess is that India wants more TOT than OEM's are prepared to give and/or at a price they will not accept and possibly that they want control of project management to avoid risking the project descending into the chaos seen in so many domestic projects. Why else would none of them sign up to it? I presume the chances of a 6G engine JV would suffer the same fate.

Not wanting to sound pessimistic but you need to be realistic if you want to attain objectives.

India needs to go for the engines all alone. No country is going to give up its prized jewels of engine manufacturing and know-how/why that took them decades to accrue. The West invested decades of r&d and untold amounts of money into perfecting stuff like TF engines and photolithography.

GoI babus are either too dense or they just don't want to see what's before them, thinking that foreign JV's will just hand out that technology for a sum of few billion $$.

These engine JV talks have been going on for more than a decade, but nothing ever comes out except some juicy clickbait news articles saying "negotiations are ongoing". The real reason has always been workshare disagreements or denial of ToT.

Any talks of 6G in India at IAF/Govt level are mostly pointless chai biskoot sessions for now.
 
Ye gormint saare milke hume chutiya bana rahe hain, bhosdiwalon 43000 per month ki pay me kaunsa 5th gen fighter banaoge be???

kya chutiya log hain yaar ye, nahi hum hi chutiya hain jo expect kar rahe hain ki amca banega,
They get a lot of other benefits other than in hand salary
Quaters, electronics, multiple other allowances, if I remember they even get low interest loans(have to check) along with other benefits
It easily crosses 80k per month still low for iit nit bits engineers
But even they don't expect these students to work here
Look at other govt technical organizations all have graduates from tier 3 clgs or lower clgs
Multiple reasons apart from money that engineers don't want to join pathetic work culture, lots of chaplusi, learning core is difficult compared to coding
 
No country provides a complete transfer of technology. Russia did not provide full TOT for the Su-30MKI despite India’s significant investment. Therefore, expecting a complete technology transfer for the Su-57 is unrealistic.

And while India views Russia as an “all-weather friend,” Russia often perceives India primarily as a financial opportunity. In the past, Russia has misled India by selling inferior equipment at inflated prices

Besides as i said before, if the Su-57 proves to be unproven or underperforming, India would lose not only money but also valuable time and resources.
That all weather friend has proved its worth many times in the past when friends like USA and Uk turned around threatened India militarily in 1971 and even today supporting anti Indian propaganda during Operation Sindoor.
 
aur ye bhen ke lawde hume sapne dikha rahe hain ki amca 5 + 0.5 = 5.5 gen hoga, bhenchod eots nahi hai, main to kehta hun irst hi use kar lo na, rcs ko 1 m2 ke upar kar dena, ho gaya VLO advanced black jets of maulana gobhi ji bc

depress kar diya yaar in logon ne, ye eo/ir to knockoff hai eots ka, 2035 me shayad aayega, wo bhi without eots, waah behenke laude

View attachment 37552


View attachment 37554
aur ye bhen ke lawde hume sapne dikha rahe hain ki amca 5 + 0.5 = 5.5 gen hoga, bhenchod eots nahi hai, main to kehta hun irst hi use kar lo na, rcs ko 1 m2 ke upar kar dena, ho gaya VLO advanced black jets of maulana gobhi ji bc

depress kar diya yaar in logon ne, ye eo/ir to knockoff hai eots ka, 2035 me shayad aayega, wo bhi without eots, waah behenke laude

View attachment 37552


View attachment 37554
Eots= sapphire dome inside which sensors like irst & other exist.

Even RSPA/ghatak will have stealthy sapphire dome inside which it's fso will be placed.
 
6G? Interesting to consider what could be involved, what tech would need to be developed. What do you do about an engine, though? I guess it would take a couple of decades or more to develop an advanced engine in India and GOI would have to commit to investing at least 20-30 times as much as it has been prepared to invest in Kaveri over the lifetime of that programme.

Variable cycle looks like a huge, immensely expensive technical challenge. Could India take it on by itself? The JV approach on an engine for AMCA seems not to have got far in the last 10 years. My guess is that India wants more TOT than OEM's are prepared to give and/or at a price they will not accept and possibly that they want control of project management to avoid risking the project descending into the chaos seen in so many domestic projects. Why else would none of them sign up to it? I presume the chances of a 6G engine JV would suffer the same fate.

Not wanting to sound pessimistic but you need to be realistic if you want to attain objectives.

Having correct aptitude & having correct management are 2 different things.
What we see & hear currently is duffer domestic management, otherwise globally Indians have proved their aptitude & management.

If it was upto me, then i would make ENGINE a 16x5 & AMCA a 24x7 project in shifts with more people if needed. Whatever tools, press, forge we don't have, import them as emergency for prototypes.

Giving say 3-5x money for ToT under desperaton is not right bcoz -
- Tech keeps on evolving, so ToT need will arise again & again in absence of R&D.
- It'll screw future relation & trust with ToT giver/exploiter.

R&D is the only way forward.
We also need a massive crack-down on income tax theft, financial scams, overbudgeted spending, etc. 100% cashless may not be possible yet but digital payment has to be enforced on certain type of transactions.
Engine JV will definitely happen, which should target 130-150KN for 2-engine 5gen AMCA, TEDBF & 250 KN for 6gen IN+IAF jet IMO.
Meanwhile we should negotiate for AL-41 or F-100/110 engines w/o ToT for prototypes.
There are numerous category of tech & parts in a jet. The project cannot lag just due to 1 or few parts.

If these things are not initiated in 2025 then India is destined to suffer consequences any year, may be next year, may around 2030, 2035, 2040.
Only those people can relax who are either over-optimistic with peace & international diplomacy, or don't mind loosing Arunachal Pradesh, Jammu & Kashmir.
Even a sincere high school kid can understand these things.
 
Eots= sapphire dome inside which sensors like irst & other exist.

Even RSPA/ghatak will have stealthy sapphire dome inside which it's fso will be placed.
no no, check carefully, even the diagram which was brought out didnt say anything about eots or any characteristic thing about eots, it was an eoir, thats it, in a saphire dome

and also if we have eots, then why laser targetting pod??

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That all weather friend has proved its worth many times in the past when friends like USA and Uk turned around threatened India militarily in 1971 and even today supporting anti Indian propaganda during Operation Sindoor.
What anti-Indian propaganda was there in the UK over Operation Sindoor? There was a lot of news coverage of the massacre of the tourists in Kashmir. There was coverage of the strike against Pakistan. Was the coverage pro-India/pro-Pakistan/anti-India/anti-Pakistan propaganda? Not in my book. Providing information about events that have taken place is what I call reporting the news.

If the facts reflect badly on a country, publishing those facts is not propagandising against that country.
 
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no no, check carefully, even the diagram which was brought out didnt say anything about eots or any characteristic thing about eots, it was an eoir, thats it, in a saphire dome

and also if we have eots, then why laser targetting pod??

View attachment 37561
Hope this pic helps.
Second as I said again, eots= electro optical sensors in a stealthy sapphire dome, f35 has irst/flir +Laser targeting in a crystal dome.
Another jet can only have irst/flir inside a crystal dome.
Another jet can have a TV camera in a crystal dome.
Another jet can only have laser designated in crystal dome.

And it seems we are not integrating laser pods in our eots.
Mainly, because usefulness of integrating was decided to not be worth it.

Ask yourself, in future wars how useful laser designator will be? How often will it be needed? Even if in few niche cases laser guided bombs are used Why would a expensive manned stealth jet get close enough to illuminate laser to a target to guide the munition, especially when ghatak, cats warrior and other stealth drones are being biult?
One of the jet f35 was supposed of replace was also a10 warthog in CAS(close air support) role, AMCA won't be used for CAS, and f35 is also rarely gonna use it's laser designstor in future due to reasons stated above.

Just don't blindly go for, this jet has it so our jet should have it too, think of the need, benifits, of the system.
Plus even in current world, laser guided bombs have become a niche, and gps, INS guided bombs have become mainstay.
 

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Having correct aptitude & having correct management are 2 different things.
What we see & hear currently is duffer domestic management, otherwise globally Indians have proved their aptitude & management.

If it was upto me, then i would make ENGINE a 16x5 & AMCA a 24x7 project in shifts with more people if needed. Whatever tools, press, forge we don't have, import them as emergency for prototypes.

Giving say 3-5x money for ToT under desperaton is not right bcoz -
- Tech keeps on evolving, so ToT need will arise again & again in absence of R&D.
- It'll screw future relation & trust with ToT giver/exploiter.

R&D is the only way forward.
We also need a massive crack-down on income tax theft, financial scams, overbudgeted spending, etc. 100% cashless may not be possible yet but digital payment has to be enforced on certain type of transactions.
Engine JV will definitely happen, which should target 130-150KN for 2-engine 5gen AMCA, TEDBF & 250 KN for 6gen IN+IAF jet IMO.
Meanwhile we should negotiate for AL-41 or F-100/110 engines w/o ToT for prototypes.
There are numerous category of tech & parts in a jet. The project cannot lag just due to 1 or few parts.

If these things are not initiated in 2025 then India is destined to suffer consequences any year, may be next year, may around 2030, 2035, 2040.
Only those people can relax who are either over-optimistic with peace & international diplomacy, or don't mind loosing Arunachal Pradesh, Jammu & Kashmir.
Even a sincere high school kid can understand these things.
Honestly instead of sitting on their asses if our GoI/MoD babus were competent they would do everything to sanction funds for testing facilities so Kaveri could run in parallel in case JV doesn't happen, they just have to throw 2000-3000 crore rupees to do that, which is like pocket change for them. But they are constantly running to goraland for JV and wasting time while ignoring the Kaveri. They have spent peanuts on Kaveri's development we all know that. At this point we can just pray that the JV happens in time..
 
Honestly instead of sitting on their asses if our GoI/MoD babus were competent they would do everything to sanction funds for testing facilities so Kaveri could run in parallel in case JV doesn't happen, they just have to throw 2000-3000 crore rupees to do that, which is like pocket change for them. But they are constantly running to goraland for JV and wasting time while ignoring the Kaveri. They have spent peanuts on Kaveri's development we all know that. At this point we can just pray that the JV happens in time..
They don't wish to take risk, if some failures/delay happen by taking risk, their position/promotion will be negatively affected.
So no bold, fast steps.
 
Hope this pic helps.
Second as I said again, eots= electro optical sensors in a stealthy sapphire dome, f35 has irst/flir +Laser targeting in a crystal dome.
Another jet can only have irst/flir inside a crystal dome.
Another jet can have a TV camera in a crystal dome.
Another jet can only have laser designated in crystal dome.

And it seems we are not integrating laser pods in our eots.
Mainly, because usefulness of integrating was decided to not be worth it.

Ask yourself, in future wars how useful laser designator will be? How often will it be needed? Even if in few niche cases laser guided bombs are used Why would a expensive manned stealth jet get close enough to illuminate laser to a target to guide the munition, especially when ghatak, cats warrior and other stealth drones are being biult?
One of the jet f35 was supposed of replace was also a10 warthog in CAS(close air support) role, AMCA won't be used for CAS, and f35 is also rarely gonna use it's laser designstor in future due to reasons stated above.

Just don't blindly go for, this jet has it so our jet should have it too, think of the need, benifits, of the system.
Plus even in current world, laser guided bombs have become a niche, and gps, INS guided bombs have become mainstay.

> Is there any study article on obsolecence of LGBs & other guidances woud suffice?
You have a point that UCAV can use LD. But,
> AMCA can also be turned into UCAV/optionally unmanned.
> CATS Warrior IMO is currently a poor design. If not improved, it'll be shot down like a cruise missile.
So sending in cruise missiles worked against poor enemy like Pakistan, could be tough against China.
> Ghatak, like i said before also but you forget, it is boomerang shaped subsonic jet, w/o afterburner, once detected can't defend itself.
> Laser designator is a very small thing in the turret ball of EO pods. Compared to the entire jet, it is like a person carrying pocket laser pointer, nothing exotic or costly. There is no need to depend on another jet.
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> 5+gen fighter should be multi-role. No matter how rarely something would be needed, when needed but not there means possible failure. We can't, shouldn't say that AMCA won't or shouldn't be used for CAS, etc. IMO it can & should be the next backbone of IAF.
> The current EOTS shown for AMCA could be just a preliminary one. All they need to do is attach the small laser unit.
> EOTS = F/DLIR/IRST + LDP. If AMCA's EO sensor doesn't have LD then it is just F/DLIR.
> INS, like GPS is a positioning technique. AFAIK both are used together. They're good for fixed targets.
Every guidance system has its own time, place, importance. We have our own GPS but assuming if it is somehow jammed & we need to strike a portion of building or a moving target or in open terrain then either IIR or LGB is needed.
 
40 rafale repeat is logical, another new fighter with new infra and new logictics would be nightmare, 76 rafales would be good stopgap for tejas mk2 induction as well as amca mk1

hopefully the next 40 are f4 standard, but frenchies know how to squeeze every penny

"india specific enhancements" - astra mk1 integration - 100 million usd
mk2 - 150 M usd
mk3 - 200 M usd
brahmos - 300 M usd

india specific weather paint enhancement - 500 M usd

india specific this that - 1 B usd

thanks india for the money
Rafale will be obsolete in 10 years when our enemies will be flying 5th gen and getting ready to induct 6th gen.

Buying moar rafales is not the answer to maintain some sort of parity with our beligerent neighbours.

We used to have a significant superiority over Pak in terms of all three arms of our military. We will not only lose our threat perception and deterrence, we will lose our decades long edge over bhikharistan AF.

There is no way in hell AMCA is going to be inducted before 2037-38(very optimistic going by our track record).

We will be fighting wars on multiple fronts with a distinct tech disadvantage.

Might as well as build hundreds more of nuclear warheads because that will be the only deterrence we will have.

If you think more Rafales will deter air forces of China and Pak, i have a bridge to sell you.
 
Rafale will be obsolete in 10 years when our enemies will be flying 5th gen and getting ready to induct 6th gen.

Buying moar rafales is not the answer to maintain some sort of parity with our beligerent neighbours.

We used to have a significant superiority over Pak in terms of all three arms of our military. We will not only lose our threat perception and deterrence, we will lose our decades long edge over bhikharistan AF.

There is no way in hell AMCA is going to be inducted before 2037-38(very optimistic going by our track record).

We will be fighting wars on multiple fronts with a distinct tech disadvantage.

Might as well as build hundreds more of nuclear warheads because that will be the only deterrence we will have.

If you think more Rafales will deter air forces of China and Pak, i have a bridge to sell you.
Nothing of Chinese make ever works. India knows for sure the working quality of Chinese weapons…. HQ-9 failed, PL-15 failed and many more radars failed. Hence do not worry too much about their stealth fighter. I can guarantee that it will be less than 50% capability of what they say. So relax….. have self confidence.
 
To all F35 and Su57 stans , I need to understand what is your understanding about future wars (with Pakistan only ) will look like ?
Do you think that Pakistan will use J35 and to counter that we will use Su57/F35 and the one who will put a first lock will score the kill .

All this 5th Gen buying is putting a hole in our already deficit funds . We need to build our own 5th Gen and in meanwhile focus on BETTER RADARS WHICH CAN DETECT 5TH GEN .
The moment you will get breakthrough there all 5th Gen tech will go for a toss ..
 
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