AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (19 Viewers)

[Spitfire IX]

Should we try to join that GCAP thing as backup plan? Though I fear we might get scammed.

GCAP is fully set up now with 3 partners. With target delivery around 2035, including India with its record of missing timelines by miles would add risk to the programme. Japan needs GCAP to adhere to schedule so would not want India involved. Canada, Australia look possible to me. Even Saudi Arabia if it were prepared to commit 25+ billion USD (?) to the programme including orders.

 

[randombully]

With target delivery around 2035,

Doubt* deliveries will start before 2040.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Doubt* deliveries will start before 2040.

Fair enough but based on what?

 

[randombully]

Fair enough but based on what?

Standard development time needed.
2040 Is being optimistic, based on fighter jet and related industry development of all 3 countries & considering rolls Royce experience with engines, and japan's work done for shinshin, while ignoring any process or beaurocratic hurdle.
Though from seeing the description of capabilities of tempest being presented, it seems to be a relatively conservative 6th gen, unlike US and China which are making more revolutionary and risky choices for their 6th gen.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Standard development time needed.
2040 Is being optimistic, based on fighter jet and related industry development of all 3 countries & considering rolls Royce experience with engines, and japan's work done for shinshin, while ignoring any process or beaurocratic hurdle.
Though from seeing the description of capabilities of tempest being presented, it seems to be a relatively conservative 6th gen, unlike US and China which are making more revolutionary and risky choices for their 6th gen.

UK, Italy spent many years de-risking the project. The partners want high probability it will be delivered 2035 and are not going into this blind. The treaty to set this up more or less denies governments the power to interfere. IMO they gave GCAP too much protection from scrutiny. However does reduce time lost to bureaucracy. From babus to PM's or anyone else, nobody has the right to access GCAP's premises, data without GCAP permission. It is/will be illegal in UK, Italy and Japan.

 

[liberalredditor]

Standard development time needed.
2040 Is being optimistic, based on fighter jet and related industry development of all 3 countries & considering rolls Royce experience with engines, and japan's work done for shinshin, while ignoring any process or beaurocratic hurdle.
Though from seeing the description of capabilities of tempest being presented, it seems to be a relatively conservative 6th gen, unlike US and China which are making more revolutionary and risky choices for their 6th gen.

the design also seems like a double engine f35 maxx. atleast burgerica and chowmein went with tail less design taking big risks but with bouh'o'wouh it seems it would be ready before 2035, the design is negligible innovation

 

[randombully]

UK, Italy spent many years de-risking the project. The partners want high probability it will be delivered 2035 and are not going into this blind. The treaty to set this up more or less denies governments the power to interfere. IMO they gave GCAP too much protection from scrutiny. However does reduce time lost to bureaucracy. From babus to PM's or anyone else, nobody has the right to access GCAP's premises, data without GCAP permission. It is/will be illegal in UK, Italy and Japan.

If whatever you said is true, then being optimistic, it will enter service around ~2040.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

GCAP is fully set up now with 3 partners. With target delivery around 2035, including India with its record of missing timelines by miles would add risk to the programme. Japan needs GCAP to adhere to schedule so would not want India involved. Canada, Australia look possible to me. Even Saudi Arabia if it were prepared to commit 25+ billion USD (?) to the programme including orders.

See your first mistake here is to assume that the Japanese will stick around to see this program complete. I see the Americans pulling them out of it sooner or later. There is no way in hell or heaven you are even making a prototype of a mockup in just 10 years. And going by the abysmal track record of the Typhoon program, chastising India for delayed timelines seem like the pot calling the kettle black. Canadians, Aussies and Saudis will contribute nothing technology wise. Canadians will pull out citing cost overruns, and so will Aussies who's military budget largely depends on handouts from America. Saudis will split after Americans make them a good alternative package deal.​

Only European next gen bird I see on the road to success is the FCAS.

 

[shade2]

See your first mistake here is to assume that the Japanese will stick around to see this program complete. I see the Americans pulling them out of it sooner or later. There is no way in hell or heaven you are even making a prototype of a mockup in just 10 years. And going by the abysmal track record of the Typhoon program, chastising India for delayed timelines seem like the pot calling the kettle black. Canadians, Aussies and Saudis will contribute nothing technology wise. Canadians will pull out citing cost overruns, and so will Aussies who's military budget largely depends on handouts from America. Saudis will split after Americans make them a good alternative package deal.​

Only European next gen bird I see on the road to success is the FCAS.

He's some kind of bri'ish mulla( non subcontinental ) doing concern trolling on this thread, nothing of value he adds.

Also this seems to be his twatter account


View: https://x.com/Davidfrigate/status/1935442398571626805

FCAS will only be successful because the muscular baguette will pullout and make his own 6th gen plane avec booze et hookeurs hon hon hon.
They have the whole stack, Thales for radar and electronics, Safran for engines, Dassault for airframe and integration.

 

[Spitfire IX]

from seeing the description of capabilities of tempest being presented, it seems to be a relatively conservative 6th gen, unlike US and China which are making more revolutionary and risky choices for their 6th gen.

Japan wants a result 2035, rather than a better 6G 2040. It plans to retire F-2 from mid-2030's. Is that a strange position to take? You have a plan to to retire F-2, so your plan for a 6G needs to tie in with your existing plan to retire F-2. I call that coordination.

 

[randombully]

Japan wants a result 2035, rather than a better 6G 2040. It plans to retire F-2 from mid-2030's. Is that a strange position to take? You have a plan to to retire F-2, so your plan for a 6G needs to tie in with your existing plan to retire F-2. I call that coordination.

F2's direct replacement are f35's not a heavy fighter like tempest.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Only European next gen bird I see on the road to success is the FCAS.​

Your view. I read it has big partner problems.

My k/b broke so cnnot write much. Suggest u rd why Jp chose to go F-3 lone without US.

 

[shade2]

F2's direct replacement are f35's not a heavy fighter like tempest.

Anglo, Italian and Japanese are all F35 operators
Germany is soon to be F35 operator and so will Spain eventually.

There is only one outlier country which has no 5th gen plane but is going directly to 6th gen.



Which is why they are the only ones with a serious chance of delivering.

For the rest their politicians can just cancel these projects saying "it's too expensive" and buy American anyway

 

[randombully]

Your view. I read it has big partner problems.

My k/b broke so cnnot write much. Suggest u rd why Jp chose to go F-3 lone without US.

Same problem rafale had, French ultimately went alone.
Yet right now rafale has the more advance varient( f4) in service and production, than eurofighter.

Most eurofighters(actually all) in RAF,German AF, Italian AF don't even have an aesa radar till date, it's only now that germany and Spain are producing ecrs mk1 for their typhoons, and UK further working on ecrs mk2 prototypes and fitting them on typhoon for testing.

 

[Spitfire IX]

F2's direct replacement are f35's not a heavy fighter like tempest.

Indeed. F-35 cn do F-2 job. Jpn needs long rnge fighter. GCAP is going to be very long rnge.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Your view. I read it has big partner problems.

Nullified because the French have what it takes to go at it alone. They have the complete ecosystem to make everything for that jet at home. Germans are there for sharing the cost and offloading some manufacturing.

Suggest u rd why Jp chose to go F-3 lone without US.

No idea what you mean here. But as far as the Japanese are concerned, as long as the F-35 can carry AGM-158Cs (externally) / JSMs (internally) for anti-ship duty, they are more than satisfied, since they operate those from their aircraft carriers. The Japanese deployment envelop has no immediate need for a heavy aircraft like the Tempest. The Japanese are testing the water with the GCAP program, trying to see how much tech they can potentially absorb for their F-X program. Official mergers non-withstanding. As soon as they figure out the actual work share and who retains ip rights for what, they'll run (same reason why the FCAS partners are having a spat right now); they'll go back and have at it again by themselves, like they did with the Shinshin tech demonstrator.​

 

[Spitfire IX]

The Japanese are testing the water with the GCAP program, trying to see how much tech they can potentially absorb for their F-X program. Official mergers non-withstanding. As soon as they figure out the actual work share and who retains ip rights for what, they'll run (same reason why the FCAS partners are having a spat right now); they'll go back and have at it again by themselves, like they did with the Shinshin tech demonstrator.

UK + Japan requirements close. Why they merged Tempest + F-X. Lot less $$$ per country. RR, too, needed for V/C engine?

 

[Corvus Splendens]

UK + Japan requirements close. Why they merged Tempest + F-X. Lot less $$$ per country. RR, too, needed for V/C engine?

The Japanese want an air superiority fighter for the defense of their islands. The British want a multi-role fighter that can operate from forward airbases around the world. The Japanese also want a complete control over not only the aircraft's design ip, but also it's software and mission computer. These are the things the British will not let go of that easily. The Japanese also want integration of Very long range AAMs to counter the next gen Chinese platforms, a requirement non-existent in the original weapons package on the GCAP. There will inevitably be a spat over it's internal bay dimensions, landing gear, internal fuel capacity, etc.

On the case of engines, the Japanese already made the XF5, the most efficient engine in it's class. An engine lighter than the General Electric F-404, yet producing more thrust. They don't "need" help from the British to come up with an advanced engine. They are ahead in tech and engineering high thermal tolerance. Infact the Japanese are already testing their XF-9 engine which is in the same class as the P&W F-135, but it's lighter with comparable dry thrust (behind in wet thrust for now). The only thing the Japanese are lacking in the engine field is the capacity for mass production on the fly. It'll take them some time to set it up.​

 

[Spitfire IX]

Time will tell.