Electronics and Semiconductor Manufacturing Industry

[Blademaster]

Thanks for the information but what exactly has this to do with the original line of argument about there being better places than WB for the location of this fab ?

For starters this isn't your normal commercial fab which itself would be a high security area but it's a military grade lab where not only vital components for India but the US & the west will be fabricated here meaning the security would have to what it is in a N plant complex or any other top secret site .

Besides according to the co founder the location is still undecided .

https://www.business-standard.com/companies/start-ups/bharat-semi-startup-behind-indo-us-partnership-in-semiconductor-fab-124092301132_1.html

Btw the Shakti lab has nothing to do with Global Foundries . Here the firm involved is 3rdiTECH - a recent start up which has rapidly developed into a prime vendor to the Indian armed forces having won a few prestigious awards recently.

Apparently they hold a few IPRs which have NatSec implications which probably explains the reason the US was so malleable to setting up a fab in India in some sort of a JV (?) . What exactly does the US bring to this venture is not clear as of now ?

We need to make sure that US is not doing this to create a backdoor into Indian electronics and snoop on Indian forces using Indian products.

 

[FalconSlayers]

View: https://x.com/ETNOWlive/status/1838779958648352930?t=VbZmK0eTGsjBemd5FwluEw&s=19

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Remember suspicious fire in SCL in 90s burned down wxpensive equipment setting back India by many decades? Bengal is on tenterhooks right now. I wish punjab and bengal get priorities sorted so they dont miss the growth story of India.

Honestly we have lot of saboteurs within our country especially in Government. The plant got lost in fire. But still the Government at that time decided to not fund the Reconstruction. Mostly due to the economic crisis. Since without the infrastructure most of the scientist would have moved out to other orgs. Just within few years the learning has been undone.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

On odd days we are cribbing why eastern Indian states are not interested in setting up Industry.

On even days why you are putting X eastern since you have floods, cyclone, mullahs.

If Assam, Odisha, West Bengal is getting Semiconductor/Electronics Ecosystem then it will improve the state of the Economy. It will have an effect on other laggards like Bihar, Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh to setup industries.

 

[Anants]

Honestly we have lot of saboteurs within our country especially in Government. The plant got lost in fire. But still the Government at that time decided to not fund the Reconstruction. Mostly due to the economic crisis. Since without the infrastructure most of the scientist would have moved out to other orgs. Just within few years the learning has been undone.

And people forget that when SCL was established when tricity was at peak, tricity was buzzing with some really good industries pharma(ranbaxy etc), farm equipements and trucks(swaraj. HMT etc) , communications( first in country WLL provider PUNCOM). It was backed by good institutes like PEC, Thapar, RECs,PAU, PU, PGIMER,NIPER.

they could easily have expanded and bolstred SCL but both country and state went through dark days. By the time state came out of hubris - rest of the country already had marched ahead.

 

[ezsasa]

And people forget that when SCL was established when tricity was at peak, tricity was buzzing with some really good industries pharma(ranbaxy etc), farm equipements and trucks(swaraj. HMT etc) , communications( first in country WLL provider PUNCOM). It was backed by good institutes like PEC, Thapar, RECs,PAU, PU, PGIMER,NIPER.

they could easily have expanded and bolstred SCL but both country and state went through dark days. By the time state came out of hubris - rest of the country already had marched ahead.

this trope of SCL fire and assertion that if SCL was functional through out, India would have been in a much different place, i think it is a bit exaggerated. to me it sounds like most of the socialist/congressi tropes we used to hear before, like kohinoor, sone ki chidiya etc. basically externalising policy failures on some event or some external party.

even if SCL had continued functioning, without policy backing India wouldn't have been self-sufficient. if we compare it to other gormint agencies like NTPC, NTPC played their part well in making india's power sector self-sufficient but that doesn't mean India didn't need private players building and running power plant. one of the areas NTPC helped private sector is that, they provided human capital during initial days of private players when employees of NTPC left public sector to join private sector, same with oil, steel sectors etc.

basically this is to say, trajectory wouldn't have been dramatic as being usually implied if SCL hadn't caught fire. and VLSI design industry was developing parallel in bangalore and hyd, independant of SCL, if i remember correctly they were sending their designs to singapore for prototyping, i am talking of 2005-10 period.

 

[Suga]

this trope of SCL fire and assertion that if SCL was functional through out, India would have been in a much different place, i think it is a bit exaggerated. to me it sounds like most of the socialist/congressi tropes we used to hear before, like kohinoor, sone ki chidiya etc. basically externalising policy failures on some event or some external party.

even if SCL had continued functioning, without policy backing India wouldn't have been self-sufficient. if we compare it to other gormint agencies like NTPC, NTPC played their part well in making india's power sector self-sufficient but that doesn't mean India didn't need private players building and running power plant. one of the areas NTPC helped private sector is that, they provided human capital during initial days of private players when employees of NTPC left public sector to join private sector, same with oil, steel sectors etc.

basically this is to say, trajectory wouldn't have been dramatic as being usually implied if SCL hadn't caught fire. and VLSI design industry was developing parallel in bangalore and hyd, independant of SCL, if i remember correctly they were sending their designs to singapore for prototyping, i am talking of 2005-10 period.

And fires at fabrication plants is nothing new,it had happend to others also and all have come out of it.

 

[Anants]

this trope of SCL fire and assertion that if SCL was functional through out, India would have been in a much different place, i think it is a bit exaggerated. to me it sounds like most of the socialist/congressi tropes we used to hear before, like kohinoor, sone ki chidiya etc. basically externalising policy failures on some event or some external party.

even if SCL had continued functioning, without policy backing India wouldn't have been self-sufficient. if we compare it to other gormint agencies like NTPC, NTPC played their part well in making india's power sector self-sufficient but that doesn't mean India didn't need private players building and running power plant. one of the areas NTPC helped private sector is that, they provided human capital during initial days of private players when employees of NTPC left public sector to join private sector, same with oil, steel sectors etc.

basically this is to say, trajectory wouldn't have been dramatic as being usually implied if SCL hadn't caught fire. and VLSI design industry was developing parallel in bangalore and hyd, independant of SCL, if i remember correctly they were sending their designs to singapore for prototyping, i am talking of 2005-10 period.

Actually fire in SCL had the same effect on Semiconductor research and production - what Arrest of Cryogenic Scientists in ISRO spy case on ISRO Cry program. Delayed and stunted nascent electronics growth. The era I am talking about is 1989. SCL was quite equipped by world standards. They were manufacturing 64K DRAMs then. They had military applications. And they were serious about expanding technical capability to meet semiconductors demands of growing applications in India. There were rumors it was targeted by US. Just like many other defense related advance programs. Remember SCL was the only FAB in the country for quite some time. Our defence space applications relied on it heavily then and still for some components. Its because of this IIRC - ISRO and DRDO wants revival of SCL. Otherwise it had been long in tooth socialist trope as you portray - it would have been shut down long ago.


I am not sure many people may not have heard about company called Quark which had very successful product called Quark express. Its Major campus was in Mohali. Quark was absolute king of desktop publishing software. Adobe was way behind. This is the time when IP laws were not enacted. One quark employee took all source code product and joined adobe and rest is history. I remember getting placed in Quark was at the top as it paid much better than all and had stringent recruitment process. Later things went so bad they reneged on placement letters given to students after an year. Now they have been reduced to managing IT park and really ultra expensive Apartments. That era was of sabotages. Fires in labs and mysterious deaths of young scientists, ammo fires were common news during that era.


2005-2010 is the period I was pointing that when the state woke from its hubris - nation was already ahead. And that was the precisely period I am talking about. SCL was already fallen behind. My course mates did their VLSI certifications from SCL prior to 2005 period. SCL was already in doldrums then as reported by them then. But they were taught good and got really good placements in Core Chip companies on design side.

I know it may sound like its a region specific hurrah.. but SCL was 100% Govt owned. Its just like what if TIFR had been sabotaged in early independence days. Does that mean nuclear research in India would never happened. No. BUt would we been considerably delayed... Yes

 

[Anants]

And fires at fabrication plants is nothing new,it had happend to others also and all have come out of it.

Not in India at that time. It was an era where one crash, one fire could mean termination of entire program for decades - if investment lost was substantial. AVRO AWAC crash in 1999 put a lid on the program for two decades. Trishul failures put lid on that program. India has been penny pincher. Its miracle that India did not employ same strategy in Space, Nuclear at that time - though space sector had its own share of ordeals

 

[ezsasa]

Actually fire in SCL had the same effect on Semiconductor research and production - what Arrest of Cryogenic Scientists in ISRO spy case on ISRO Cry program. Delayed and stunted nascent electronics growth. The era I am talking about is 1989. SCL was quite equipped by world standards. They were manufacturing 64K DRAMs then. They had military applications. And they were serious about expanding technical capability to meet semiconductors demands of Indian. There were rumors it was targeted by US. Just like many other defense related advance programs.

i'll try to contextualise this event. let's run it using a scenario.

let's say chandrayaan 2 failure had happened in 1989. there is one of two ways, gormint of the day would have reacted :

a - immediately approve chandrayaan 3 ,
b - do nothing, and let feelings of insecurity among masses grow.

if people in power in 1989 had opted for a), our discourse now would have been different in above scenario. opting b) will lead to all sorts of hypothetical discussions.

this is like the thing para guys do, if there is a fatality during a training jump, their C.O will try maximum to get his boys up in air and do another drop within hours, instead of allowing insecurities grow in his boy's head.

choices made by decision makers in immediate aftermath of an event matters.

just to be clear, those years were politically and financially turbulent period in the country as well, until 98. i don't know how much of attention decision makers could have given to this particular aspect. the idea that national security is more than securing borders is something that got developed early 2000's and adopted in 2014.

 

[Anants]

i'll try to contextualise this event. let's run it using a scenario.

let's say chandrayaan 2 failure had happened in 1989. there is one of two ways, gormint of the day would have reacted :

a - immediately approve chandrayaan 3 ,
b - do nothing, and let feelings of insecurity among masses grow.

if people in power in 1989 had opted for a), our discourse now would have been different in above scenario. opting b) will lead to all sorts of hypothetical discussions.

Here by Chandrayan 3 mean analogous to expanding SCL again after fire in the case. Yes that may have been the case. But in that era - as I explained it Not possible given Indian economic conditions. Can you conclude more sabotage would not have been made? But hindsight is 6/6 isnt it? Had India capbility to do CY3 after CY2 in 1989 - India would not have seen various bloodsheds all over India as it had to see. Naxalism, Maosim, Comunism, all flavors terrorism would have been controlled long ago. But your what what if is as good as what if India would never have been invaded by Mughals or Brits?


What I am pointing to you is given what condition of India was, SCL was brave attempt and shining alone example in India. And after 1989 fire - they could only reopen in 1997


Of course - what if the favorite pastime of masses. Isnt it? What if Chandra Babu Naidu never invested in IT infra in Andhra - would India have missed the IT revolution bus? No . But it would have been delayed because IT would have been forced to shift to other states where political acumen might not be that great as CBN. Probably!

An article for year 2000

https://www.eetimes.com/indian-fabs-future-stalled-by-government-foot-dragging-2/

 

[SKC]

Actually fire in SCL had the same effect on Semiconductor research and production - what Arrest of Cryogenic Scientists in ISRO spy case on ISRO Cry program. Delayed and stunted nascent electronics growth. The era I am talking about is 1989. SCL was quite equipped by world standards. They were manufacturing 64K DRAMs then. They had military applications. And they were serious about expanding technical capability to meet semiconductors demands of growing applications in India. There were rumors it was targeted by US. Just like many other defense related advance programs. Remember SCL was the only FAB in the country for quite some time. Our defence space applications relied on it heavily then and still for some components. Its because of this IIRC - ISRO and DRDO wants revival of SCL. Otherwise it had been long in tooth socialist trope as you portray - it would have been shut down long ago.


I am not sure many people may not have heard about company called Quark which had very successful product called Quark express. Its Major campus was in Mohali. Quark was absolute king of desktop publishing software. Adobe was way behind. This is the time when IP laws were not enacted. One quark employee took all source code product and joined adobe and rest is history. I remember getting placed in Quark was at the top as it paid much better than all and had stringent recruitment process. Later things went so bad they reneged on placement letters given to students after an year. Now they have been reduced to managing IT park and really ultra expensive Apartments. That era was of sabotages. Fires in labs and mysterious deaths of young scientists, ammo fires were common news during that era.


2005-2010 is the period I was pointing that when the state woke from its hubris - nation was already ahead. And that was the precisely period I am talking about. SCL was already fallen behind. My course mates did their VLSI certifications from SCL prior to 2005 period. SCL was already in doldrums then as reported by them then. But they were taught good and got really good placements in Core Chip companies on design side.

I know it may sound like its a region specific hurrah.. but SCL was 100% Govt owned. Its just like what if TIFR had been sabotaged in early independence days. Does that mean nuclear research in India would never happened. No. BUt would we been considerably delayed... Yes

I am not sure why would US target us alone during that time.

1980s was the time when then Fabs moved out from US and Europe to Southeast Asia to countries like Taiwan, Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore, Indonesia, etc. along with India.

What did we do out of line that US did a covert operation to sabotage us and left others to propagate?

As @ezsasa mentioned, India did not have a clear Policy and short- and long-term vision and plan for semiconductors sector. We were rather happy with production of electronics for our Defense and Space requirement.​

 

[Anants]

I am not sure why would US target us alone during that time.

1980s was the time when then Fabs moved out from US and Europe to Southeast Asia to countries like Taiwan, Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore, Indonesia, etc. along with India.

What did we do out of line that US did a covert operation to sabotage us and left others to propagate?

As @ezsasa mentioned, India did not have a clear Policy and short- and long-term vision and plan for semiconductors sector. We were rather happy with production of electronics for our Defense and Space requirement.​

India was not in US camp at that time. Was it? 1989 was time when Soviet Union still existed. And Indian Labs, programs have been targeted by US and still are. I mean I am really surprised if members of defence board arent aware of that. Indian defense boards at one time were full threads of Indian scientists working in critical or cutting edge dying, mysterious fires and accidents in most secured labs.
Its the same animosity which @ezasa often lament as remanent of cold war attitude in state dept.

How happy would we have been our only fab plant got inoperable from 1989 to 1997 due to fire - when IGDMP as well Space was in critical ab initio phase? India had to resort desperate means for sourcing chips from outside.

I guess people who were not aware of those times - really dont understand the context being talked about. There was an article in an electronics site or magazine - that SCL was Indian attempt to become like Taiwan - at an era when Computers were still seen with suspicion in country by various comrades,samajwadis and swadeshi jagran manchs.

 

[SKC]

India was not in US camp at that time. Was it? 1989 was time when Soviet Union still existed. And Indian Labs, programs have been targeted by US and still are. I mean I am really surprised if members of defence board arent aware of that. Indian defense boards at one time were full threads of Indian scientists working in critical or cutting edge dying, mysterious fires and accidents in most secured labs.
Its the same animosity which @ezasa often lament as remanent of cold war attitude in state dept.

How happy would we have been our only fab plant got inoperable from 1989 to 1997 due to fire - when IGDMP as well Space was in critical ab initio phase. India had to resort desperate means for sourcing chips from outside.

Situation was same pretty much for all South-East Asian countries who were more in Russian camps than Americans.
US allowed the flow of technology to these countries to get them to their camp. Same thing they would be trying for us.
Our Space program became serious in 90s when we approached Russians got Cryo-tech.​

 

[Anants]

Situation was same pretty much for all South-East Asian countries who were more in Russian camps than Americans.
US allowed the flow of technology to these countries to get them to their camp. Same thing they would be trying for us.
Our Space program became serious in 90s when we approached Russians got Cryo-tech.​

Not all. South east asian countries you quoted were aligned very much with US camp. They were Asian tigers including Indonesia which experienced good economic growth was becoming role model for Asia from 1980's to 1990's. South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan especially were very much knit into western economy. Not India. Remember India in 1989 - did not even had its first economic liberalisation reform by then.

 

[Dr Deep]

Thanks for the information but what exactly has this to do with the original line of argument about there being better places than WB for the location of this fab ?

For starters this isn't your normal commercial fab which itself would be a high security area but it's a military grade lab where not only vital components for India but the US & the west will be fabricated here meaning the security would have to what it is in a N plant complex or any other top secret site .

Besides according to the co founder the location is still undecided .

https://www.business-standard.com/companies/start-ups/bharat-semi-startup-behind-indo-us-partnership-in-semiconductor-fab-124092301132_1.html

Btw the Shakti lab has nothing to do with Global Foundries . Here the firm involved is 3rdiTECH - a recent start up which has rapidly developed into a prime vendor to the Indian armed forces having won a few prestigious awards recently.

Apparently they hold a few IPRs which have NatSec implications which probably explains the reason the US was so malleable to setting up a fab in India in some sort of a JV (?) . What exactly does the US bring to this venture is not clear as of now ?

From local Hindi Daily in Kolkata. Its confirmed that a plant of 40 Acres will be established in Kolkata either in Rajarhat ( Its eastern Suburb) or Naihati (A northern Suburb). It will have an combined FDI of 60 thousand crore rupees.

 

[Dr Deep]

Actually fire in SCL had the same effect on Semiconductor research and production - what Arrest of Cryogenic Scientists in ISRO spy case on ISRO Cry program. Delayed and stunted nascent electronics growth. The era I am talking about is 1989. SCL was quite equipped by world standards. They were manufacturing 64K DRAMs then. They had military applications. And they were serious about expanding technical capability to meet semiconductors demands of growing applications in India. There were rumors it was targeted by US. Just like many other defense related advance programs. Remember SCL was the only FAB in the country for quite some time. Our defence space applications relied on it heavily then and still for some components. Its because of this IIRC - ISRO and DRDO wants revival of SCL. Otherwise it had been long in tooth socialist trope as you portray - it would have been shut down long ago.


I am not sure many people may not have heard about company called Quark which had very successful product called Quark express. Its Major campus was in Mohali. Quark was absolute king of desktop publishing software. Adobe was way behind. This is the time when IP laws were not enacted. One quark employee took all source code product and joined adobe and rest is history. I remember getting placed in Quark was at the top as it paid much better than all and had stringent recruitment process. Later things went so bad they reneged on placement letters given to students after an year. Now they have been reduced to managing IT park and really ultra expensive Apartments. That era was of sabotages. Fires in labs and mysterious deaths of young scientists, ammo fires were common news during that era.


2005-2010 is the period I was pointing that when the state woke from its hubris - nation was already ahead. And that was the precisely period I am talking about. SCL was already fallen behind. My course mates did their VLSI certifications from SCL prior to 2005 period. SCL was already in doldrums then as reported by them then. But they were taught good and got really good placements in Core Chip companies on design side.

I know it may sound like its a region specific hurrah.. but SCL was 100% Govt owned. Its just like what if TIFR had been sabotaged in early independence days. Does that mean nuclear research in India would never happened. No. BUt would we been considerably delayed... Yes

This youtube channel called Asianometry talks about the rise and fail of SCL Labs. Punjab was really ahead of its time during 70s-80s in terms of Economic Prosperity. Green Revolution, Hoisery/Cycle Industry in Jalandhar/Ludhiana, Swaraj Tractor Plants, Ranbaxy and then SCL.. People always talk about Bengal's fall from grace..but nobody talks about Punjab's fall from grace. After the era of Militancy the state never bounced back and has been completely left behind in terms of Industrialization. Its poor cousin Haryana has already advanced itsself in terms of Industrializaton and manufacturing. Even Himachal has decent Pharma Industry. If the Politicians of Punjab had any foresight they would have leverage the presence of SCL in Chandigarh to court various Semiconductor Plants in its upcoming Mohali city. It has a decent educated mass, temperate climate, in vicinity of Delhi NCR as well as well connected with the ports through the newly built DFCs and Expressways. This would have given employment opportunities to the youth as they will seek to learn the skills and try earn good living in the area as well as find tertiary industries for the Plant hence giving the same effect as IT Industry did for South. But instead we have increase emigration to West and Drug Problem.

View: https://youtu.be/isBYV6QWDIo?si=3oR4pAPvG8wnB_rw

 

[Anants]

This youtube channel called Asianometry talks about the rise and fail of SCL Labs. Punjab was really ahead of its time during 70s-80s in terms of Economic Prosperity. Green Revolution, Hoisery/Cycle Industry in Jalandhar/Ludhiana, Swaraj Tractor Plants, Ranbaxy and then SCL.. People always talk about Bengal's fall from grace..but nobody talks about Punjab's fall from grace. After the era of Militancy the state never bounced back and has been completely left behind in terms of Industrialization. Its poor cousin Haryana has already advanced itsself in terms of Industrializaton and manufacturing. Even Himachal has decent Pharma Industry. If the Politicians of Punjab had any foresight they would have leverage the presence of SCL in Chandigarh to court various Semiconductor Plants in its upcoming Mohali city. It has a decent educated mass, temperate climate, in vicinity of Delhi NCR as well as well connected with the ports through the newly built DFCs and Expressways. This would have given employment opportunities to the youth as they will seek to learn the skills and try earn good living in the area as well as find tertiary industries for the Plant hence giving the same effect as IT Industry did for South. But instead we have increase emigration to West and Drug Problem.

View: https://youtu.be/isBYV6QWDIo?si=3oR4pAPvG8wnB_rw

Yes Dr Deep, I often talk about Punjab and Bengal in same breath. Check my posts here or DFI. Both states were forefront in Indian Armed revolution, both states bore maximum partition brunt, both states started good and both states got choked by own hubris. Strange isnt it. Bengal may still rise because of resources, coastline. Punjab to rise it has only own people's entrepreneurial and hard working spirit(now litreally lost or moved on) to rely on.
People dont realize big names like Hero, DCM, OSWAL,Mahindra, Swaraj, Sonalika Escorts,Oberai, FabIndia etc have their or their founder roots in Punjab.
It sucks that Pakistan succeeded in dudding Punjab engine of growth.
IT industry actually approached for setting up in early years - but politicos of that era were only interested in manufacturing industry did not teally understand IT.

This can happen to any state if they dont check regionalism or bigotry or politics. Let other states learn from our failure and they dont repeat same mistakes so that they can enjoy growth and continue india growth story.

 

[Dr Deep]

India was not in US camp at that time. Was it? 1989 was time when Soviet Union still existed. And Indian Labs, programs have been targeted by US and still are. I mean I am really surprised if members of defence board arent aware of that. Indian defense boards at one time were full threads of Indian scientists working in critical or cutting edge dying, mysterious fires and accidents in most secured labs.
Its the same animosity which @ezasa often lament as remanent of cold war attitude in state dept.

How happy would we have been our only fab plant got inoperable from 1989 to 1997 due to fire - when IGDMP as well Space was in critical ab initio phase? India had to resort desperate means for sourcing chips from outside.

I guess people who were not aware of those times - really dont understand the context being talked about. There was an article in an electronics site or magazine - that SCL was Indian attempt to become like Taiwan - at an era when Computers were still seen with suspicion in country by various comrades,samajwadis and swadeshi jagran manchs.

No the Indo-US relationship was slowly thawing during the 80s especially after Indira Gandhi's visit to US and being courted by Ronald Reagan. Numerous technology cooperation agreements were signed including procurement of Mainframe Computer for Weather Reporting, as well as allowing Indian Software Exports to US Companies ( Patni Computers, TCS and nascent Infosys) ...SCL was also established with the help of American Semiconductor folks..

 

[jadoogar]

this trope of SCL fire and assertion that if SCL was functional through out, India would have been in a much different place, i think it is a bit exaggerated. to me it sounds like most of the socialist/congressi tropes we used to hear before, like kohinoor, sone ki chidiya etc. basically externalising policy failures on some event or some external party.

even if SCL had continued functioning, without policy backing India wouldn't have been self-sufficient. if we compare it to other gormint agencies like NTPC, NTPC played their part well in making india's power sector self-sufficient but that doesn't mean India didn't need private players building and running power plant. one of the areas NTPC helped private sector is that, they provided human capital during initial days of private players when employees of NTPC left public sector to join private sector, same with oil, steel sectors etc.

basically this is to say, trajectory wouldn't have been dramatic as being usually implied if SCL hadn't caught fire. and VLSI design industry was developing parallel in bangalore and hyd, independant of SCL, if i remember correctly they were sending their designs to singapore for prototyping, i am talking of 2005-10 period.

OK. If we accept your words then why did someone burn down the place? Because they saw a threat. So the hostile entities took take care of the problem at the beginning itself.

And it was sabotage. Indian buildings (at least of those times) don't just burn down. They were built with stone, brick, concrete with very little combustibles. Perhaps only curtains were combustible and I did not see any curtains in all the labs at one of the IITs

Perhaps only Chemistry labs could burn down and I have seen fires at Chemistry labs but the lab or buildings did not burn down. So even more unlikely for a semi fab with cylinders of inert gases.