GTRE GTX 35VS Kaveri

[pipebomb]

View: https://www.youtube.com/live/_pWc1Hy-wTg?si=YPhSiu7l0anSlTSz

So what I got from saurav jha's recent past couple of episodes of IAH is

1) The only thing we lack compared to GE, Safran etc is DATA, which they aquire through years of iterative development, flying and productionizing. And no amount of TOT is going to help bridge this gap. THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS

2) GTRE has solved all the teething issue of kaveri and has been waiting for govt nod to integrate it to LCA

3) Kaveri has aachieved it's dry thrust goal of 50kn but missed it's wet thrust and currently stands at 76kn. It is also overweight by a couple of hundred kgs

4) GTRE and it's indutrial patners has the technological capability/capacity to achieve the 80kn wet thrust without changing kaveri's core. The end result will still be overweight compared to f404 but not by much

So what's the best way to move forward in our complex Indian scenario

To me the path with least resistance, least time, least capex expenditure or r&d cost in productionizing an Indian TF engine, is replacing f414 in TEDBF with kaveri

1) TEDBF with twin kaveri satisfy every parameter of IN carrier aircraft requirement

2) It will be safer to put kaveri in a twin engine aircraft rather than lca

3) IN is already hedging it's carrier aircraft bet by importing Rafales. So there should be no problem in backing TEDBF powered by kaveri

4) Iterative development won't work without productionizing an Indian TF engine first

 

[Azaad]

So what I got from saurav jha's recent past couple of episodes of IAH is

1) The only thing we lack compared to GE, Safran etc is DATA, which they aquire through years of iterative development, flying and productionizing. And no amount of TOT is going to help bridge this gap. THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS

2) GTRE has solved all the teething issue of kaveri and has been waiting for govt nod to integrate it to LCA

3) Kaveri has aachieved it's dry thrust goal of 50kn but missed it's wet thrust and currently stands at 76kn. It is also overweight by a couple of hundred kgs

4) GTRE and it's indutrial patners has the technological capability/capacity to achieve the 80kn wet thrust without changing kaveri's core. The end result will still be overweight compared to f404 but not by much

So what's the best way to move forward in our complex Indian scenario

To me the path with least resistance, least time, least capex expenditure or r&d cost in productionizing an Indian TF engine, is replacing f414 in TEDBF with kaveri

1) TEDBF with twin kaveri satisfy every parameter of IN carrier aircraft requirement

2) It will be safer to put kaveri in a twin engine aircraft rather than lca

3) IN is already hedging it's carrier aircraft bet by importing Rafales. So there should be no problem in backing TEDBF powered by kaveri

4) Iterative development won't work without productionizing an Indian TF engine first

The plan for Kaveri ( it's derivatives & iterations) are somewhat like this - 46-48KN KED / Dry Kaveri tests ( if successful ?) -> 75 KN Kaveri ( if successful?) -> 90 KN Kaveri.

To achieve this much we'd need 10 years & a whole lot of testing infrastructure apart from money to finance the program.

It's only after we achieve this much we can move to the 100-105 KN Kaveri analogous to the GE F-414 which'd require a brand new core. That's a post 2035 program .

In brief, all these programs are geared to come up with a TF during MLU of the LCA Mk-1/ Mk-1a / Mk-2, the AMCA Mk-1 & the TEDBF. That's the road map or at least that's how it should be, looking at it from where we are .

 

[pipebomb]

The plan for Kaveri ( it's derivatives & iterations) are somewhat like this - 46-48KN KED / Dry Kaveri tests ( if successful ?) -> 75 KN Kaveri ( if successful?) -> 90 KN Kaveri.

To achieve this much we'd need 10 years & a whole lot of testing infrastructure apart from money to finance the program.

It's only after we achieve this much we can move to the 100-105 KN Kaveri analogous to the GE F-414 which'd require a brand new core. That's a post 2035 program .

In brief, all these programs are geared to come up with a TF during MLU of the LCA Mk-1/ Mk-1a / Mk-2, the AMCA Mk-1 & the TEDBF. That's the road map or at least that's how it should be, looking at it from where we are .

But we don't have 10yrs. When the 90kn derivative is ready we Integrate it to mk2 & tdbf

But we need to put the 76-80kn Kaveri in production. Design TDFB around it. Don't wait for any future derivative

 

[Anants]

3) Kaveri has aachieved it's dry thrust goal of 50kn but missed it's wet thrust and currently stands at 76kn. It is also overweight by a couple of hundred kgs

50 Kn was Achieved at cost of very low MTBF ofn100 hrs IIRC read at some tweet. So it's going to be 46 45 kn for decent MTBF

4) GTRE and it's indutrial patners has the technological capability/capacity to achieve the 80kn wet thrust without changing kaveri's core. The end result will still be overweight compared to f404 but not by much

So what's the best way to move forward in our complex Indian scenario

To me the path with least resistance, least time, least capex expenditure or r&d cost in productionizing an Indian TF engine, is replacing f414 in TEDBF with kaveri

1) TEDBF with twin kaveri satisfy every parameter of IN carrier aircraft requirement

2) It will be safer to put kaveri in a twin engine aircraft rather than lca

3) IN is already hedging it's carrier aircraft bet by importing Rafales. So there should be no problem in backing TEDBF powered by kaveri

4) Iterative development won't work without productionizing an Indian TF engine first

What is most required is HATF and FTB, otherwise all plans are just air castle and an exercise in pain and agony without any gains

 

[Anants]

The plan for Kaveri ( it's derivatives & iterations) are somewhat like this - 46-48KN KED / Dry Kaveri tests ( if successful ?) -> 75 KN Kaveri ( if successful?) -> 90 KN Kaveri

45/73 kn was already Achieved decade back, why do they want to reinvent wheel here by again trying to achieve same figures.

It's only after we achieve this much we can move to the 100-105 KN Kaveri analogous to the GE F-414 which'd require a brand new core. That's a post 2035 program .

This program should start now and only then you would have base to work upon in 2035, otherwise you are again seeing two decade development work post 2035

In brief, all these programs are geared to come up with a TF during MLU of the LCA Mk-1/ Mk-1a / Mk-2, the AMCA Mk-1 & the TEDBF. That's the road map or at least that's how it should be, looking at it from where we are .

As If IAF shall happily accept it. Mark my words, IAF shall rather ground LCA than house Kaveri on it. Even by God's grace they do, a single crash would be en9ugh for them to mothball LCA program like Marut.

 

[Blademaster]

45/73 kn was already Achieved decade back, why do they want to reinvent wheel here by again trying to achieve same figures.

Because Safran told them that it was the only way to resolve the screeching and instability at high RPMs and extend the MTBO.

This program should start now and only then you would have base to work upon in 2035, otherwise you are again seeing two decade development work post 2035


As If IAF shall happily accept it. Mark my words, IAF shall rather ground LCA than house Kaveri on it. Even by God's grace they do, a single crash would be en9ugh for them to mothball LCA program like Marut.

We need to replace the IAF brass with the brass that would keep supporting the LCA no matter what.

 

[Azaad]

But we don't have 10yrs. When the 90kn derivative is ready we Integrate it to mk2 & tdbf

Who says we don't have a decade? What do you think the ToT & local mfg program for the GE F-414 is all about?

It's to get mfg technology & knowledge, insulate our FA development program to the extent possible from US whimsicality & to get those FAs in the air ASAP avoiding delays which have plagued all our FA programs till date.

Why would GE consent to the entire agreement if the qty was so low?

But we need to put the 76-80kn Kaveri in production. Design TDFB around it. Don't wait for any future derivative

First we need to validate the Dry Kaveri. That in itself would take a year or 2 . Then we need to mate the AFB version to this Dry Kaveri & get it tested on board an FTB. That process would take us a good 5 years at least.

Once that's validated we productionize it. It's only after that we move to the 100-105 KN TF program. Even if we accomplish all this in a decade beginning now, it'd signify smooth sailing which in itself would be good news as it means our tech has now reached maturity.

Moreover, a 90 KN TF in a decade being in production would come around the time of the MLU of the Mk-1a we were to induct in the IAF last year.

That's how this entire program of Kaveri, its derivatives & iterations was conceived & it's sound in logic. Even if we stick to it & it delivers in the time lines it was expected to we'd have achieved our goals. No point being over ambitious.

We're already paying a price for it by conceiving a 4th Gen FA & a 4th Gen TF from ground up with no experience, no great R&D set up, no industrial depth & on & on when we launched the Kaveri & the LCA program in the early 80s & the results are before you.

What you're suggesting is we go down that path again .

 

[Azaad]

45/73 kn was already Achieved decade back, why do they want to reinvent wheel here by again trying to achieve same figures.

That 75 KN ouput couldn't be tested for an extended period of time due to issues. Hence we needed guidance, therefore SAFRAN consultancy in 2018. You know the rest.

This program should start now and only then you would have base to work upon in 2035, otherwise you are again seeing two decade development work post 2035

What we've now is a redesigned version based on that consultancy, realisation of new materials, etc. It needs to be validated, hence testing & certification before moving on to the 100 KN TF+ project .

As If IAF shall happily accept it. Mark my words, IAF shall rather ground LCA than house Kaveri on it. Even by God's grace they do, a single crash would be en9ugh for them to mothball LCA program like Marut.

I don't think this assumption holds true today. The road map I've detailed couldn't be possible without their participation & ascent

 

[Anants]

All good but Kaveri is 3.5. Not 4th. One blinks, tbc, sx gets Integrated and we achieve core temp of 1700 - we can call it 4th gen.

 

[shade2]

We need to replace the IAF brass with the brass that would keep supporting the LCA no matter what.

As If IAF shall happily accept it. Mark my words, IAF shall rather ground LCA than house Kaveri on it. Even by God's grace they do, a single crash would be en9ugh for them to mothball LCA program like Marut.

They have a closed loop system for promotions and all afaik just like the Milaards
This is not like the Babudom where the political class can appoint certain replacements.

Change has to come from within, they have to make their peace with the model of large orders for IDDM jets and engines and take active part in the development process like the Navy does with their ships.