GTRE GTX 35VS Kaveri

Cyclops said:
GTRE Director - 18:40 onwards


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4OIUB1GCMg
  • Unsuccessfully "begging" people to get timeslots for the high-altitude test beds and flying test beds, probably in Russia.
  • No 50K hydraulic press.
  • Only spent $250 million when 10 times the amount is needed - $2.5 billion.
  • URGENTLY NEEDED - A coordinated national mission for aero-engines involving all stakeholders(and that probably would mean IAF not just sitting and ordering fighters and aero-engines like biryani in a restaurant. They need to be more proactively involved in making said biryani - maybe even earmarking part of their funds for R&D; exactly like responsible forces like USAF and USN do)
  • Need for more skilled manpower. He implies a 'Dutch Disease' phenomenon in India, where graduates are going to IT instead of deep tech in MTech.
Click to expand...


It's happening boys.bully-maguire-tobey.webp


View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1885921894270165443

GcSoawfbIAAqH6s.webp
GcSoawcbEAAvhn2.webp
 
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View: https://www.youtube.com/live/fIsE84Cke5Y?si=tW9zOtuz4Jdgz8z0

This is a 3 hour + program on the present & future of the Indian Aero Engine program & ecosystem. From what I understand all answers on the Kaveri & any & every derivative engine of the Kaveri is also in it including plans for a 90 KN KED to power the LCA Mk-1a
during the MLU , it's testing protocol , time taken , etc except I haven't the time & patience to go thru it & summarise the points.

If any body out here is considerate enough to do it , please list out the necessary points for the benefit of the entire forum.
 
Anants said:
I thought an Indian Mfg company would have taken the challenge - given it was MECO giving consultancy.
Click to expand...
What's the maximum capacity hydraulic forging press we've installed in India ? If I'm not mistaken HAL has one & it's ~ 20, 000 tons capacity or less.

Ideally we should be taking a leaf out of China & get a local company involved in a partnership for them to derive learning & for usual preventive & defective maintenance.
 
Last time I enquired jindal steel imported most of its equipment from Japan Machine Work and other such japanese firms. Forge as low as 2500 ton was imported.
That is too be expected from a man that said we are not looking into R&D this decade.

It's pathetic really.
 
Azaad said:
What's the maximum capacity hydraulic forging press we've installed in India ? If I'm not mistaken HAL has one & it's ~ 20, 000 tons capacity or less.

Ideally we should be taking a leaf out of China & get a local company involved in a partnership for them to derive learning & for usual preventive & defective maintenance.
Click to expand...
Exactly I would have liked L&T, Kalyani and BHEL to form consortium in manufacturing heavy forging press. L&T has 10T press. I am surprised given India is one of the largest producer of steel and also has large sources of iron ore - we should have invested long ago in R&D of heavy forgings. We seriously lack investment in making big furnaces anyway for steel sector. So Drills, Forgings, Furnaces is something we should be building capacity here.
 
Anants said:
L&T has 10T press
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Not their own.
L&T has its own hydraulic division but they supply peripheral components of hydraulic systems like crane. I'm sure they can manufacture 10000 to 25000 ton press if they try but market dynamics does not suit it.
You see most indian companies are able to manufacture below 1000 ton because market dynamics Suit it. There are several industries that employ 100 to 250 ton press across gujarat like die makers, knock off automobile component's, sanitary.
I have posted about these companies in Promising startup and companies thread.

When it comes to super heavy presses we are missing the local market for its demand: shipbuilding, aerospace, heavy machinery, composites, automobile.

That is why we import 1.26 million tons of special grade steel component's from Choina which are most likely formed in heavy press.

Indian firms find it easier to import 5k 10 k press than to invests in building their own.

Maybe give tax breaks in form of money invested in r&d in particular sectors directed by Gorminy can do the trick.
 
Anants said:
I thought an Indian Mfg company would have taken the challenge - given it was MECO giving consultancy.
Click to expand...

Suryavanshi said:
Indian companies cannot manufacture above 10k ton and that too after TOT.

This is where Our PSUs and so called IITs, NITs, top private college failed.
Click to expand...

Suryavanshi said:
Last time I enquired jindal steel imported most of its equipment from Japan Machine Work and other such japanese firms. Forge as low as 2500 ton was imported.
That is too be expected from a man that said we are not looking into R&D this decade.

It's pathetic really.
Click to expand...
There are many Indian companies which have been designing, making and exporting presses of over 20k tonnes.
I was related to one of them once so won't site names here.

A bit or orders and R&D budget would be enough to breach 50k tonnes capacity in a short time.
 
Movie chinese posts to their economy thread.
I don't see any reason why a discussion about chinese forges should go on in Kaveri thread.



Indx TechStyle said:
There are many Indian companies which have been designing, making and exporting presses of over 20k tonnes.
I was related to one of them once so won't site names here.

A bit or orders and R&D budget would be enough to breach 50k tonnes capacity in a short time.
Click to expand...
Can you name drop the one which is unrelated to you.

I haven't found any 5k ton+ press in public domain so far.
 
Azaad said:

View: https://www.youtube.com/live/fIsE84Cke5Y?si=tW9zOtuz4Jdgz8z0

This is a 3 hour + program on the present & future of the Indian Aero Engine program & ecosystem. From what I understand all answers on the Kaveri & any & every derivative engine of the Kaveri is also in it including plans for a 90 KN KED to power the LCA Mk-1a
during the MLU , it's testing protocol , time taken , etc except I haven't the time & patience to go thru it & summarise the points.

If any body out here is considerate enough to do it , please list out the necessary points for the benefit of the entire forum.
Click to expand...


Keynote speech by Vice-Admiral was meant to be delivered by CDS but he was called to MOD for a unscheduled meeting, hence Vice-Admiral reading it out. So content of the speech reflects thinking at highest levels in Uniformed class. I've tried to summarize the lengthy word salad with my interpretations below (I remember hearing better speeches at school debate competitions)

# Upto 12MW Diesel Engines can be made for upto 2000T displacement ships by local Chaapris looking to earn two meals a day in Rupees

# We are happy to source Gas Turbines for ships from US & Ukraine and very happy that Zorya is setting up Overhauling facilities in India so all of us can do Aatmanirbhar dance once in a while. Kaveri marine engine does not exist and hence shall not be spoken of on stage.

# Indigenous Aero Engines are aspirational (Ooooh, who knew?). Kaveri has faced many setbacks but dry version is being stuffed down our throats. It has now cleared all ground tests and is cleared for Flying Tests. It will (may?) power Ghatak. (My interpretation - End of story for Kaveri. Decision makers are happy that MOD has something to show for the chillar Rupees they had to throw at DRDO & GTRE for over 3 decades and can now bury the Kaveri for good before it threatens import gravy train like the LCA has done)

# Development of Aero Engines is very complex ( and therefore this largest nation on earth with 3rd largest economy (soon) whose engineers are in demand world over must be subservient to goras and beg them) for a joint venture so as make local name plate version of their latest and greatest creation (for which we can thankfully pay in dollars and euros and in worst case Rubles so that kith and kin of our beloved MOD babus and top-offi-class may continue to get scholarships and cushy jobs in thunk tanks for few decades more)

In short, CDS rep took stage at India's only Aero Show's seminar on Aero Engine manufacturing to inform us that JV is the only way forward for Aero & Marine Jet Engines if forced to wave the AatmaNirbhar fig leaf (instead of direct imports)

Yet to see rest of the seminar for what poor DRDO folks are m*st*rb*ting to currently. Will update if I manage to do that
 
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Suryavanshi said:
Not their own.
L&T has its own hydraulic division but they supply peripheral components of hydraulic systems like crane. I'm sure they can manufacture 10000 to 25000 ton press if they try but market dynamics does not suit it.
You see most indian companies are able to manufacture below 1000 ton because market dynamics Suit it. There are several industries that employ 100 to 250 ton press across gujarat like die makers, knock off automobile component's, sanitary.
I have posted about these companies in Promising startup and companies thread.

When it comes to super heavy presses we are missing the local market for its demand: shipbuilding, aerospace, heavy machinery, composites, automobile.

That is why we import 1.26 million tons of special grade steel component's from Choina which are most likely formed in heavy press.

Indian firms find it easier to import 5k 10 k press than to invests in building their own.

Maybe give tax breaks in form of money invested in r&d in particular sectors directed by Gorminy can do the trick.
Click to expand...
No really here Government special purpose support team is needed because once these heavy setups are done then they will get benefits for decades.
If somebody doubt it?! Ask usa, russia.
So, here I must say government direct intervention is needed.
 
Kattar said:
Keynote speech by Vice-Admiral was meant to be delivered by CDS but he was called to MOD for a unscheduled meeting, hence Vice-Admiral reading it out. So content of the speech reflects thinking at highest levels in Uniformed class. I've tried to summarize the lengthy word salad with my interpretations below (I remember hearing better speeches at school debate competitions)

# Upto 12MW Diesel Engines can be made for upto 2000T displacement ships by local Chaapris looking to earn two meals a day in Rupees

# We are happy to source Gas Turbines for ships from US & Ukraine and very happy that Zorya is setting up Overhauling facilities in India so all of us can do Aatmanirbhar dance once in a while. Kaveri marine engine does not exist and hence shall not be spoken of on stage.

# Indigenous Aero Engines are aspirational (Ooooh, who knew?). Kaveri has faced many setbacks but dry version is being stuffed down our throats. It has now cleared all ground tests and is cleared for Flying Tests. It will (may?) power Ghatak. (My interpretation - End of story for Kaveri. Decision makers are happy that MOD has something to show for the chillar Rupees they had to throw at DRDO & GTRE for over 3 decades and can now bury the Kaveri for good before it threatens import gravy train like the LCA has done)

# Development of Aero Engines is very complex ( and therefore this largest nation on earth with 3rd largest economy (soon) whose engineers are in demand world over must be subservient to goras and beg them) for a joint venture so as make local name plate version of their latest and greatest creation (for which we can thankfully pay in dollars and euros and in worst case Rubles so that kith and kin of our beloved MOD babus and top-offi-class may continue to get scholarships and cushy jobs in thunk tanks for few decades more)

In short, CDS rep took stage at India's only Aero Show's seminar on Aero Engine manufacturing to inform us that JV is the only way forward for Aero & Marine Jet Engines if forced to wave the AatmaNirbhar fig leaf (instead of direct imports)

Yet to see rest of the seminar for what poor DRDO folks are m*st*rb*ting to currently. Will update if I manage to do that
Click to expand...
Very good speech by DRDO scientist - Dr. Subrata Das . He didn't go into specifics and that maybe deliberate

# Four categories related to Engine Development- 1. Design & Technology. 2. Material & Manufacturing. 3. Quality, Reliability, Certifications, Life cycle testing etc. 4th is LRUs related to engine

# Breakdown of development cost - 40% Material, 30-35%, Manufacturing, 20-25% Sub-systems / LRUs

# When people talk of TOT, CKD, SKU, it only covers above 3. Nobody gives Design & Technology

# When Kaveri program started nothing was available - Design Tools, simulation or analysis tools, Material Characteristics Data. All had to be developed independently

# None of engine producers in country who have got so called ToT have got competence in the Design & Technology. It is available to the country now only because of Kaveri program (In short, they are doing screw-driver-giri only and have no autonomy)

# We’ve developed 35-40 material & manufacturers across country through Kaveri program.

# We now have 80-85% of required capability for Aero Engines locally i.e except in one or two areas

# Indian Engine will be on a Indian Aircraft in application role in two years

# We have some deficiencies in test facilities which has been presented in detail in many forums in many ways. So won’t speak of that here

# At GTRE. we have 5 test beds and all 5 are occupied 365 days a year. Two additional test beds for upto 130 KN coming up near Bengaluru

# When we have to integrate we got stuck although it is only 20% value., we had to go reverse engineer everything including lubricants, fuel systems etc

# All systems have gone through all sorts of test and certifications and will be seen flying in couple of years as we have ensured reliability & quality

# Contemporary Technologies such as BLISK, BLINK & Thrust Vectoring should be aimed for now. This needs co-ordination and integrated planning between Design agency like DRDO, certification agencies, user & industry. Unless this is done, we cannot be truly atmanirbhaar in Aero engines for next 20-30 years
 
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