Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Doreamon]

We can bring it's clean rcs under <2m2 for most of frontal arc, which will provide significant benifits.

A rafale loaded with missiles and drop tanks has rcs >2m2( oh yeah rafale doesn't have much low rcs geometric features unlike how the French hype it up, but ram is there).

Su30 wouldn't need drop tanks.

A jet loaded with missiles with similar rcs as loaded rafales( with missiles and drop tanks), but highly powerful avionics.

Supersukhoi would surpass rafale as a bvr fighter, if actual work on rcs reduction is done as part of super sukhoi deal.

Actually there were some indications in old news on reduction of su30 rcs to some extend for delayed detection . I am refering to news of a kind of RAM paint developed by Jodhpur laboratory which was in news . I can't say it ll be done or not . As far as radar capacity is concerned upgraded su30 with gan aesa with 2600 tr modules ll far surpass any fighterjets IAF got . With astra mk2 bvr missile and astra mk3 awacs killer , brahmosh ng it ll impose significant threat .

 

[FalconSlayers]

View: https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1932295385017700389

 

[randombully]

View: https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1932295385017700389

Per unit cost of 70-80 million.
Are those additional 97 tejas upgraded varients of mk1a?
The basic infra and training and supply chain "setup" should already be paid for with first batch of 83 m1ka.
Additional cost of extending these for additional 97 tejas should be lot lower than initial batch.

 

[liberalredditor]

i have a really good question

how many cats warrior can a mothership/lca max can control/handle ??? or how many can it carry with it?? will it affect the lca's pylon carrying capability as the computer would also be engaged with cats warriors iwb and its weapons.

 

[randombully]

i have a really good question

how many cats warrior can a mothership/lca max can control/handle ??? or how many can it carry with it?? will it affect the lca's pylon carrying capability as the computer would also be engaged with cats warriors iwb and its weapons.

We will have different software for "commanding"( a better word to use than "control" here) cats warrior.
No it will not affect iwb or any weapons carried by jet.
Pilots may even have seprate tablet or screen to "command" loyal wingman in initial years.
As for future with deeper integration that will happen when cats omca program is completed and AI pilots it is making are ready.


At most 2-4 for tejas and other jets.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Per unit cost of 70-80 million.
Are those additional 97 tejas upgraded varients of mk1a?
The basic infra and training and supply chain "setup" should already be paid for with first batch of 83 m1ka.
Additional cost of extending these for additional 97 tejas should be lot lower than initial batch.

Inexplicable to me how the unit cost has risen. OK, inflation affects the aviation industry like all other industries but that should be offset by lower costs as you point out. Regarding engine cost,the engine cost today should be lower than a year ago (USD has weakened against other currencies).

What was INR cost per unit for first 83? What is INR cost per unit asked by HAL for next 97? I recall that HAL was asking a much higher price for the first batch than was finally agreed. Perhaps that will happen again.

If Mk1A were offered to export customers at 70-80 million USD per frame I think it would stand no chance of being successful.

 

[randombully]

Inexplicable to me how the unit cost has risen. OK, inflation affects the aviation industry like all other industries but that should be offset by lower costs as you point out. Regarding engine cost,the engine cost today should be lower than a year ago (USD has weakened against other currencies).

What was INR cost per unit for first 83? What is INR cost per unit asked by HAL for next 97? I recall that HAL was asking a much higher price for the first batch than was finally agreed. Perhaps that will happen again.

If Mk1A were offered to export customers at 70-80 million USD per frame I think it would stand no chance of being successful.

Adjusted for Inflation purely in indian rupees it is little bit cheaper.
The deal for 83 tejas was signed in 2021 for 48000 crore, if it was 97 tejas instead it would be 56000 crore in 2021( assuming per unit price is same).
56000 crore in 2021 adjusted for rupees Inflation would be worth 71k-74k crore in 2025.

The deal for 97 tejas mk1a in 2025 is worth 67k crore
( so per unit cost is 6-10% cheaper than in 2021, adjusted for inflation)

I focused purely on rupees and did not use exchange rate with dollars.
In 2021, 1 dollar was worth avg 72 indian rupees
Now, 1 dollar is worth avg 83 rupees.

So per unit cost of tejas in 2021 converted to dollars in 2021 was 80million per jet.
( 80 million dollars in 2021 are now equal to 90 million dollars today in 2025).
Now it's 83 million dollars per unit in 2025( using current rupee dollar exchange rate).

So adjusted for inflation in dollars, the per unit cost of current tejas in dollars current order is 7.8% cheaper compared to in 2021.

But that 6-10%, 7.8% cheaper per unit can be easily achieved just due to increase no. Of tejas on order( 15% more tejas ordered).

And given the development cost of tejas mk1a and other things I mentioned about "setting" up, the per unit cost should be more cheaper.
Should be atleast 20% cheaper( adjusted for inflation) that per unit cost in 2021.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Adjusted for Inflation purely in indian rupees it is little bit cheaper.
The deal for 83 tejas was signed in 2021 for 48000 crore, if it was 97 tejas instead it would be 56000 crore in 2021( assuming per unit price is same).
56000 crore in 2021 adjusted for rupees Inflation would be worth 71k-74k crore in 2025.

The deal for 97 tejas mk1a in 2025 is worth 67k crore
( so per unit cost is 6-10% cheaper than in 2021, adjusted for inflation)

I focused purely on rupees and did not use exchange rate with dollars.
In 2021, 1 dollar was worth avg 72 indian rupees
Now, 1 dollar is worth avg 83 rupees.

So per unit cost of tejas in 2021 converted to dollars in 2021 was 80million per jet.
( 80 million dollars in 2021 are now equal to 90 million dollars today in 2025).
Now it's 83 million dollars per unit in 2025( using current rupee dollar exchange rate).

So adjusted for inflation in dollars, the per unit cost of current tejas in dollars current order is 7.8% cheaper compared to in 2021.

But that 6-10%, 7.8% cheaper per unit can be easily achieved just due to increase no. Of tejas on order( 15% more tejas ordered).

And given the development cost of tejas mk1a and other things I mentioned about "setting" up, the per unit cost should be more cheaper.
Should be atleast 20% cheaper( adjusted for inflation) that per unit cost in 2021.

Thanks for your reasoned reply. Perhaps HAL will reduce its asking price for 97. It sounds like it would be making a much higher profit on the upcoming batch than on the current one. I'm assuming that the order for 97 is not yet signed.

 

[randombully]

Thanks for your reasoned reply. Perhaps HAL will reduce its asking price for 97. It sounds like it would be making a much higher profit on the upcoming batch than on the current one. I'm assuming that the order for 97 is not yet signed.

Yeah, deal should 55k-60k crore.

There's 7k-12k crore here, either hal looking for more profit, or some other reason.

 

[bruno]

A rafale loaded with missiles and drop tanks has rcs >2m2( oh yeah rafale doesn't have much low rcs geometric features unlike how the French hype it up, but ram is there).

What is the FIRST thing you want to do when you want to make a plane with a lower RCS ?
Answer : you hide the first stage compressor engine from the radar view.
So you can do whatever you want on your SU30, I will just remind you that... there is a direct view at the full front engine from the air intakes. It is not just a flash light in the night, but it also allow everyone to know what is behind this reflection, as specific modes can easily recognize signature from engines.

If you want to make low RCS pods for SU30, you can do the same for Rafale too by the way. It was on project some times back by the way... But we are going through F5. For whatever the reason you need a lower RCS to go deep into enemy territory, there will be an answer for that.

 

[bruno]

>Buy F-35
>Deliveries start in 2035 because of backlog and ((( supply chain issues ))) exclusive to India apparently
>T&C includes you can't use it without prior intimation of US
>Pakis also know this
>Plane remains Hangar Queen

Well atleast this will prevent rudali Endians from weeping about $786 billion lost with a Rafale shootdown.
It will be nice to see them only at air shows and republic day flypast, not lobbing their AIM-420 at Paki Madarsas or Fighterjets because Uncle Sam won't allow that

The time the F35 will be really operational, you will have more options on the table.
I hope, your AMCA first. The are multiple reasons for India for not going for F-35.
You want some, Here one of the video I made (its automatically translated in english, not bad at all...)

View: https://youtu.be/VR2ZrgxAkfY

There is no way that the Rafale price is over 786 billion dollars. Even Million. If you want to replace one Rafale jet, it will be, at worst case scenario, over 80 millions a piece for production price, as you already have paid for everything else (maintenance, simulators, weapons, support package, specific enhancements)

 

[randombully]

What is the FIRST thing you want to do when you want to make a plane with a lower RCS ?
Answer : you hide the first stage compressor engine from the radar view.
So you can do whatever you want on your SU30, I will just remind you that... there is a direct view at the full front engine from the air intakes. It is not just a flash light in the night, but it also allow everyone to know what is behind this reflection, as specific modes can easily recognize signature from engines.

If you want to make low RCS pods for SU30, you can do the same for Rafale too by the way. It was on project some times back by the way... But we are going through F5. For whatever the reason you need a lower RCS to go deep into enemy territory, there will be an answer for that.

Indeed, but su35s even with exposed engines was able to achieve this.

View: https://x.com/Flankerchan/status/1750329135359197365

View: https://x.com/Flankerchan/status/1750329157073142242

 

[bruno]

I'm not sure this simulation take into account the engine. That is why I replied this.

 

[randombully]

I'm not sure this simulation take into account the engine. That is why I replied this.

It does.
You can read it.
It was hard to beleive for me to.
But rest of su35 is pretty sleek and thin from front.
They the ram treatment was extensive, also covered inlets too.


As a platform its now excellent, If russians just give it an advance sensor and EW suite, and monstrous aesa radar, it can become the most capable european non stealth jet.

 

[Noob_Saibot]

It does.
You can read it.
It was hard to beleive for me to.
But rest of su35 is pretty sleek and thin from front.
They the ram treatment was extensive, also covered inlets too.


As a platform its now excellent, If russians just give it an advance sensor and EW suite, and monstrous aesa radar, it can become the most capable european non stealth jet.

Doesn't the Su 57 have all the capabilities of the Su 35 (and much more) , a much better anti stealth radar and much stealthier?

Why do people shit on it then?

 

[randombully]

Doesn't the Su 57 have all the capabilities of the Su 35 (and much more) , a much better anti stealth radar and much stealthier?

Why do people shit on it then?

They compare it to "other 5th gen".
It's better than all non stealth jets, but it's stealth is somewhat lacking compared to other stealth jet, but it's still a "stealth" jet.

 

[Noob_Saibot]

They compare it to "other 5th gen".
It's better than all non stealth jets, but it's stealth is somewhat lacking compared to other stealth jet, but it's still a "stealth" jet.

Yeah i have seen the RCS figures, its much worse than the F-35, slightly worse than the J-20, but stealthier than any 4.5 gen and anything in our inventory.

If the threat of CAATSA, sanctions and ostracisation by the international community weren't issues, we could've seriously considered this, especially considering the full ToT and source code pitch by the Ruskies.

Let's hope they end their stupid war soon and negotiate their way out of sanctions. It will make it a lot easier to consider it.

 

[Noob_Saibot]

Russia’s Su-57 deal can be a game-changer for India’s defence manufacturing

The Su-57 deal could emerge as one of the most significant defence collaborations between India and Russia in the 21st century—potentially propelling India into the ranks of nations with the capability to produce fifth-generation fighter jets on their own ground

www.firstpost.com

Clearly a sales pitch by the Ruskies...

Strong pitch to be honest.

They are offering more than any one else, including Dassault who are still loath to share source codes.

The IAF needs to consider this, despite the hanging sword of sanctions. Let's not be bullied by bloody Americ***s over a national security decision.

If we can get a 5-6 squadrons of this bird, it will maintain our superiority over our beligerent neighbours and also give us a to. of tech to go into the AMCA programme.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Russia’s Su-57 deal can be a game-changer for India’s defence manufacturing

The Su-57 deal could emerge as one of the most significant defence collaborations between India and Russia in the 21st century—potentially propelling India into the ranks of nations with the capability to produce fifth-generation fighter jets on their own ground

www.firstpost.com

Clearly a sales pitch by the Ruskies...

Strong pitch to be honest.

They are offering more than any one else, including Dassault who are still loath to share source codes.

The IAF needs to consider this, despite the hanging sword of sanctions. Let's not be bullied by bloody Americ***s over a national security decision.

If we can get a 5-6 squadrons of this bird, it will maintain our superiority over our beligerent neighbours and also give us a to. of tech to go into the AMCA programme.

IAF needs a 5G in IAF service when Pakistan puts one into service.

My question is: how fast could UAC start delivering Su-57 and at what rate?

 

[snakeeyes07]

IAF needs a 5G in IAF service when Pakistan puts one into service.

My question is: how fast could UAC start delivering Su-57 and at what rate?

SU57 design is bad. If it was such a 5G and game changing fighter then why is it missing from action in the Ukrainian war?

You know SU75 is a much superior design to SU57. It is being developed jointly by Belarus and Russia now.