Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[trombone]

View: https://x.com/livefist/status/1892416458073768136

this murican bird will come too crippled and too expensive as a stop gap measure till such time HAL delivers on its promises. better to look at a less expensive, less capable (read 4.5 gen) phonen birds temporarily.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Not much of a difference because unlike other planes with two variants it lacks a folding wing. So changes should be limited to things like different undercarriage, arresting hook, etc. One tiring part of a theoretical conversion would be adding salt-water corrosion prevention measures to every single exposed part; but then again just tiring, not complicated.

But the conversion won't be the biggest issue; this would be...

If IAF is so eager with F35, should we just take Rafales from IAF , modify them and give those to Navy ?

No matter what happens, they're not giving up their newish planes. Especially with the kind of rift services have among them.

 

[BON PLAN]

If IAF is so eager with F35, should we just take Rafales from IAF , modify them and give those to Navy ?
IAF can have a bigger fleet of F35 in that way with capex saved in Rafale-M purchase.
I guess it shouldn't cost more than 1.2B$ to convert AF Rafale to Marine, ~35M each.
@BON PLAN what do you think about the commonalities between AF rafale and Marine rafale.

It's not economically interesting and may be technically impossible to modify a air Rafale in carrier one.
If the C,B,M all share the rear part of the frame, the front is different between C & M. Not only a different undercaariage, but also a reinforced front frame.
Not to speak of dual seats, B, that don't exist in carrier version.

 

[AbRaj]

I am


Thank u for your service.

also,

>Didn't post hand

lets see those yellow fingers

View attachment 25527

Although I like our Desi kitten more, this little nibbler kitty too is looking good.

Almost all the world -> NATO, who, ofcouse would never want to believe a Mig-21 can shoot down a F-16.
Its like China saying they only lost 4 soldiers in Galwan, and everybody believed them.

I do not hear any criticism for any other Air force for franticide, including recently USN shooting down their own F-18s.

Typical brown sepoy mentality. Everything India & Indian is bad and incompetent. Unless it is vetted and approved by gora masters it holds no value. Also all the mistakes and shortcomings of gora masters are automatically forgiven.

”Trust me Bro” ain’t gonna cut it , given you have a atrocious track record.
Trust me Vro- we killed 100s of terrorist and their madarasa
Trust me Vro- we shot enemy fighter jet
Trust me vro- we killed 500 of their soldiers in the Himalayas in retaliation

This is the organisation that has put pieces of its own downed plane at the fron of cantonment , claiming it as enemie’s. It’s height of shamelessness and unprofessionalism

 

[AbRaj]

this murican bird will come too crippled and too expensive as a stop gap measure till such time HAL delivers on its promises. better to look at a less expensive, less capable (read 4.5 gen) phonen birds temporarily.

Against fifth gen fighter ? That to in large numbers like in China (and Pakistan possibly)?
It will be a shooting contest for FGFA.
And that too when those Europium 4th gen fighters are costlier than F35 overall. Better bet is to trust the God almighty and focus of developing comprehensive Air defence system and overpowering missile attack capability.

 

[Binayak95]

this murican bird will come too crippled and too expensive as a stop gap measure till such time HAL delivers on its promises. better to look at a less expensive, less capable (read 4.5 gen) phonen birds temporarily.

Too expensive. New Build F35s are cheaper than new build Su30MKIs.

Let that sink in. HAL maxxed out its line at 18 birds a year. LM Fort Worth will deliver 189 F35s this year. Economies of scale are altogether another ballgame.

HAL is useless at maximizing economics.

 

[AbRaj]

Not much of a difference because unlike other planes with two variants it lacks a folding wing. So changes should be limited to things like different undercarriage, arresting hook, etc. One tiring part of a theoretical conversion would be adding salt-water corrosion prevention measures to every single exposed part; but then again just tiring, not complicated.

But the conversion won't be the biggest issue; this would be...

No matter what happens, they're not giving up their newish planes. Especially with the kind of rift services have among them.

Both are essentially different planes altogether. Only someone like Nutcracker could think like that.

 

[AbRaj]

Too expensive. New Build F35s are cheaper than new build Su30MKIs.

Let that sink in. HAL maxxed out its line at 18 birds a year. LM Fort Worth will deliver 189 F35s this year. Economies of scale are altogether another ballgame.

HAL is useless at maximizing economics.

They are talking about Rafale M mainly which is pretty expensive machine both to procure and maintain due to economic of scale (rather lack of it) and Froggs insistence of local manufacturing (that is prohibitively expensive for mass market product). Also it’s going to have way less development potential than something like F35 with huge MIC and customer base to back it up.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Both are essentially different planes altogether. Only someone like Nutcracker could think like that.

Turns out not just me and Nutcracker, but Janes too agrees on the commonality...interesting

 

[AbRaj]

Turns out not just me and Nutcracker, but Janes too agrees on the commonality...interesting
View attachment 25650

Its Airframe is totally different due to different requirements for carrier ops. LRU and component commonalities are irrelevant for the conversation

 

[Kontakt5]

Too expensive. New Build F35s are cheaper than new build Su30MKIs.

Let that sink in. HAL maxxed out its line at 18 birds a year. LM Fort Worth will deliver 189 F35s this year. Economies of scale are altogether another ballgame.

HAL is useless at maximizing economics.

HAL is not at fault for not being able to maximize economies of scale. It is the air force is at fault as it does not order in large batches. Production volume can only scale as long as the producer can see the assembly line and supply chains being operational for long time. It does not make any sense to produce 100 aircraft/year with an order of only 200. The US is able to make 189 F35's in a year because there are over 3,000 F35's on order in total globally.

 

[AbRaj]

HAL is not at fault for not being able to maximize economies of scale. It is the air force is at fault as it does not order in large batches. Production volume can only scale as long as the producer can see the assembly line and supply chains being operational for long time. It does not make any sense to produce 100 aircraft/year with an order of only 200. The US is able to make 189 F35's in a year because there are over 3,000 F35's on order in total globally.

Strange logic you got there. So its my fault that MacBook pro is so costly and that I should have funded Apple to build its factories to make Macs and IPhones cheaper ?

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

Too expensive. New Build F35s are cheaper than new build Su30MKIs.

Let that sink in. HAL maxxed out its line at 18 birds a year. LM Fort Worth will deliver 189 F35s this year. Economies of scale are altogether another ballgame.

HAL is useless at maximizing economics.

How is HAL useless at maximizing economies?

What production rate do they expect against a placed order of 40? Or 200? Is it 40 or 200 per year and then the line going idle. Any aircraft production generally runs 5 years at minimum for economic viability.

 

[Kontakt5]

Strange logic you got there. So its my fault that MacBook pro is so costly and that I should have funded Apple to build its factories to make Macs and IPhones cheaper ?

It makes zero economic sense to expand facilities, hire more workers, set up extensive assembly lines and supply chains, only to do build planes for 1-3 years and then close down. The Manufacturer will set up the most efficient assembly line in a given time frame based on how many orders it gets from customers. Consumer goods like MacBook do not apply to the same logic to defense contract manufacturing. Why would HAL overproduce 100 fighters per year if the IAF will only take in 300 fighters? It can't scale up from 0 to 100 immediately, it will start maybe 10, 1stt year, 20 next, 40, then 100. It takes many years to scale up production, if order book is too small there is zero logic to produce it in such short time frame, the facilities will be unused and many people will need to laid off and it the company will lose lot's of money. This is why Lockheed does not produce 1000 F-35/year for a 3000 order book but only ~100-200 per year. This make sures the assembly line and supply chains are operational for many years which makes back the cost of setting up such expensive facilities.

 

[trombone]

It makes zero economic sense to expand facilities, hire more workers, set up extensive assembly lines and supply chains, only to do build planes for 1-3 years and then close down. The Manufacturer will set up the most efficient assembly line in a given time frame based on how many orders it gets from customers. Consumer goods like MacBook do not apply to the same logic to defense contract manufacturing. Why would HAL overproduce 100 fighters per year if the IAF will only take in 300 fighters? It can't scale up from 0 to 100 immediately, it will start maybe 10, 1stt year, 20 next, 40, then 100. It takes many years to scale up production, if order book is too small there is zero logic to produce it in such short time frame, the facilities will be unused and many people will need to laid off and it the company will lose lot's of money. This is why Lockheed does not produce 1000 F-35/year for a 3000 order book but only ~100-200 per year. This make sures the assembly line and supply chains are operational for many years which makes back the cost of setting up such expensive facilities.

answer obviously is for HAL to have customers other than IAF alone, possibly from 'global south' if products are top notch.

 

[silentassassin265]

If IAF is so eager with F35, should we just take Rafales from IAF , modify them and give those to Navy ?
IAF can have a bigger fleet of F35 in that way with capex saved in Rafale-M purchase.
I guess it shouldn't cost more than 1.2B$ to convert AF Rafale to Marine, ~35M each.
@BON PLAN what do you think about the commonalities between AF rafale and Marine rafale.

F35B can actually do ski jump, so it makes sense to purchase it for navy too.
Regarding rafale we can buy 1 or 2 squadron more in case murrica sanctions us and F35 become unusable.

 

[AbRaj]

It makes zero economic sense to expand facilities, hire more workers, set up extensive assembly lines and supply chains, only to do build planes for 1-3 years and then close down.

Definitely it makes no sense for a company like HAL but It makes absolute sense to good companies like LM, Boeing, Dassault, TAI,SAAB, Airbus, Sukhoi, Mig, SAC, CAC and dozens of other who are not act like Giant MNAREGA scheme but proper aviation/aeronautical companies with proper future roadmap and competent management.

The Manufacturer will set up the most efficient assembly line in a given time frame based on how many orders it gets from customers. Consumer goods like MacBook do not apply to the same logic to defense contract manufacturing. Why would HAL overproduce 100 fighters per year if the IAF will only take in 300 fighters? It can't scale up from 0 to 100 immediately, it will start maybe 10, 1stt year, 20 next, 40, then 100.

It makes no sense for HAL to actually exist in its current state. Its a dysfunctional company leeching off on Govt money since decades. Other companies compete to make customers, HAL has a captive customer base. They just don't have the capability to make good products with decent quality that customers want, unlike all other mentioned above. Again its like Apple asking me to buy hundreds of MacBooks and Iphones to make them cheaper. Its just not gonna happen. They have to make desirable products and look out for customers to buy it.

 

[haldilal]

 

[Ayan Barat]

LM, Boeing, Dassault, TAI,SAAB, Airbus, Sukhoi, Mig, SAC, CAC...proper future roadmap and competent management.

I want you to read this part again, but slowly

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

Given the state of IAF now and in coming years, out best bet against pakis is :-

Overwhelming missile strength.

Target their economic hotspots.

Naval operations.

Bow down infront of America enough to that they deter china from opening up front in ladakh and AP.