Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[AbRaj]

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Import Bahadur Ji, why you are asking us to buy 4th gen jet when your fav HAL is already making 4.75th gen jet at home.

 

[Kontakt5]

answer obviously is for HAL to have customers other than IAF alone, possibly from 'global south' if products are top notch.

It still has to secure the customers before it can expand and reap the benefits of scale. If no one else buys there no point in ramping up production before there are actually any customers. For example tejas is a good aircraft but it has lots of competition with global players. It doesn't help that IAF only orders small batches of tejas aircraft and prefers imports. If you were customer nation would you rather purchase tejas jet which even it's host country refuses to buy in bulk or from a well established manufacturer from europe and america with many jet sales and proven reliability. The Indian aviation industry currently is not set up well to appeal to global customers and for export. HAL's success is dependant on if IAF actually puts up serious orders for hundreds of fighters. This is a vicious cycle.

 

[AbRaj]

I want you to read this part again, but slowly

Please, be specific

 

[AbRaj]

It still has to secure the customers before it can expand and reap the benefits of scale. If no one else buys there no point in ramping up production before there are actually any customers. For example tejas is a good aircraft but it has lots of competition with global players. It doesn't help that IAF only orders small batches of tejas aircraft and prefers imports. If you were customer nation would you rather purchase tejas jet which even it's host country refuses to buy in bulk or from a well established manufacturer from europe and america with many jet sales and proven reliability. The Indian aviation industry currently is not set up well to appeal to global customers and for export. HAL's success is dependant on if IAF actually puts up serious orders for hundreds of fighters. This is a vicious cycle.

You know,F35, Su29/30, Mig29K, M2000 and even FC1 were exported even before mass induction into own air forces. Infact the list is quite long

 

[Kontakt5]

You know, Su29/30 and M2000 and even FC1 were exported even before mass induction into own air forces. Infact the list is quite long

Those aircraft are from well established companies with history of already making successful fighters with existing customer bases. Those orders also were political orders from allied nations. It’s disingenuous to compare tejas to these fighter planes. India is a new player in the industry. Tejas is a top notch jet but India doesn’t have the history of producing jets compared to the producers of export success.

 

[Kontakt5]

‘global south’ nations often don’t have very large budgets and need to weigh the risks. They usually have small order books as well. If you are small country it is a risk to buy from India which is new player versus buying from America or Europe. Even if HAL lands Tejas order from abroad it won’t be in the hundreds so this still won’t incentivize scaling up production. India is actually the largest aircraft import market, this is why many global players are rushing to sell to India. Other nations either have own programmes or are poor and cannot buy many fighters. If anything HAL should be rushing to sell to IAF but IAF won’t buy HAL in massive numbers. It is all so stupid in my opinion.

 

[AbRaj]

Those aircraft are from well established companies with history of already making successful fighters with existing customer bases. Those orders also were political orders from allied nations. It’s disingenuous to compare tejas to these fighter planes. India is a new player in the industry. Tejas is a top notch jet but India doesn’t have the history of producing jets compared to the producers of export success.

HAL is older than many of those and doing TOTi since ages and GOI is paying in hope that HAL will learn someday and make something out of it

 

[Ayan Barat]

Please, be specific

As you wish...

First something that I had missed

Its Airframe is totally different due to different requirements for carrier ops.

It clearly mentions "...has 80 percent structural...commonality" which incidentally means airframe only.
So I don't know from where exactly are you citing this data of them being totally different. Would be great if you can quote it

As for comparing HAL with other manufacturers, I hope you're matured enough to understand that in big ticket items like aircraft we can't just compare some firm as a whole to another; there are nuances. OFB not being able to churn out a decent pistol in decades is one thing, but comparing HAL and Boeing!!!

Just like you adviced me to be more specific, I'd like you to be more specific too.
Make a detailed chart of when exactly these companies were established, are they in a democratic country or an autocratic, how many different planes have they designed till now, what's the market share, do they've any civilian business to offset the R&D of defence department. Then do a comparison

You also mentioned proper future roadmap and competent management. Then how come Gripen is considered to a sub par project? Why has Mikoyan Gurevich lost its edge?

 

[Kontakt5]

HAL is older than many of those and doing TOTi since ages and GOI is paying in hope that HAL will learn someday and make something out of it

HAL is old company yes, but go look up how many aircraft it has exported to other countries. In terms of exports, HAL is still an infant child. Cannot be compared to global industry giants.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Given the state of IAF now and in coming years, out best bet against pakis is :-

During wartime we can more or less sneeze on them and destroy half of their critical logi, airbases and ports in a matter of hours. Nobody is buying 5th fighters for pakistan in mind. Boogeyman was always china but we don't always say it.

 

[AbRaj]

It clearly mentions "...has 80 percent structural...commonality" which incidentally means airframe only.
So I don't know from where exactly are you citing this data of them being totally different. Would be great if you can quote it

SFF has a very lengthy discussion regarding development and evolution of Rafale M, with proper references. you can look into it.

As for comparing HAL with other manufacturers, I hope you're matured enough to understand that in big ticket items like aircraft we can't just compare some firm as a whole to another; there are nuances.

Why not ? Both are in market for selling their products, be it Apple/Google or Micromax and Lava. You may think its unfair to smaller inefficient companies, but its how market economy works.

OFB not being able to churn out a decent pistol in decades is one thing, but comparing HAL and Boeing!!!

again why not ? HAL is just few step behind OFBs in road to total collapse. Earlier it was believed that OFBs and HAL like BSNL, HMT, Hindustan Motors are essential for India's existence. some are already dead and buried and some are heading in that direction.

Just like you adviced me to be more specific, I'd like you to be more specific too.
Make a detailed chart of when exactly these companies were established, are they in a democratic country or an autocratic, how many different planes have they designed till now, what's the market share, do they've any civilian business to offset the R&D of defence department. Then do a comparison

sorry but I have no interest in writing thesis on origin and evolution of all the Aeronautical companies of the world. It just not worth it for me. If anyone is aiming for finding an excuse, he will find one regardless of all the efforts to show otherwise.

You also mentioned proper future roadmap and competent management. Then how come Gripen is considered to a sub par project? Why has Mikoyan Gurevich lost its edge?

Yes, many have outlived their life and like HAL succumbed to their mismanagement. And Gripen is far from a Subpar product. Performance wise and in electronics and EWs its amongst the best light fighters available

 

[AbRaj]

HAL is old company yes, but go look up how many aircraft it has exported to other countries. In terms of exports, HAL is still an infant child. Cannot be compared to global industry giants.

I dont think its IAF's fault. Or is it ?

 

[Ayan Barat]

SFF has a very lengthy discussion regarding development and evolution of Rafale M, with proper references. you can look into it.

That it not how citations work Buddy. Give me the exact source about this said thing of Rafale.

Why not ? Both are in market for selling their products, be it Apple/Google or Micromax and Lava. You may think its unfair to smaller inefficient companies, but its how market economy works.

And yet if I offer you to choose between a free Micromax and an iPhone...you'll always choose a Micromax!
Isn't it!?

again why not ? HAL is just few step behind OFBs in road to total collapse. Earlier it was believed that OFBs and HAL like BSNL, HMT, Hindustan Motors are essential for India's existence. some are already dead and buried and some are heading in that direction.

Again an extremely flawed and shallow interpretation of things.

There are already multiple firms like ASTR and SSS who're doing exponentially better than OFB. But in case of aerospace, ADA kept waiting for private industries to show up and not a single entity dared to come forward in one and a half year. So again, God knows on what basis is this few steps behind OFB is coming from.

sorry but I have no interest in writing thesis on origin and evolution of all the Aeronautical companies of the world. It just not worth it for me. If anyone is aiming for finding an excuse, he will find one regardless of all the efforts to show otherwise.

No issues Mate.

Not everyone has the appetite of doing an analysis based on scientific temperament; some people are happier with "HAL bad bad" "MiG good good" kind of analysis.

Yes, many have outlived their life and like HAL succumbed to their mismanagement. And Gripen is far from a Subpar product. Performance wise and in electronics

Again, a swallow take. My statement was "sub par project" not "sub par product". You must be well aware with the fact that a project is bit different than product. A project starts with need recognition, sales forecast, R&D...and is considered a success only if it's able to meet the forecasted sales figure in the stipulated time.

 

[Nutcracker]

F35B can actually do ski jump, so it makes sense to purchase it for navy too.
Regarding rafale we can buy 1 or 2 squadron more in case murrica sanctions us and F35 become unusable.

Rafale and F35B variant does not have foldable wings so wont fit into the lift. But Rafale is widest on posterior side hence it can hang its butt outside the life unlike F35B.

Only someone like Nutcracker could think like that.

You are again jumping into thread about which you don't have a clue about.

Both are essentially different planes altogether.

Define in percentage of parts/cost wise or don't make generic statement.

 

[Bleh]

leave it .

govt should have posted satellite image of hostel strike next day . they can still do it ,

IAF needs a 2nd balakot to get back its credibility . something i doubt will happen in near future.

They didn't even record shit. IAF needs & needed to be more active & aggressive.

Remember how we at DFI correctly predicted the Paki retaliatory action after the Balakot humiliation & were in such anticipation how IAF would be ready to pounce with SAMs & CAP loadouted Mig-29s at ready... Gazab KLPD ho gya! Pakis made a great comeback from embarrassment to celebratipn & GOI was fully responsible for it.

 

[Hari Sud]

Now with planned F-35 purchase, the Pakistani psyche has been fully damaged. Before that they were celebrating their purchase of third rate Chinese stealth fighter. They were quick to point out that PAF is 7 to 10 years ahead of IAF. That has been floored. Now they are going around to point out expensive purchase of F-35. Well, India can afford it because they are the one with a begging bowl in hand; India is ten times bigger economy, 50 times bigger cash reserves and exports of $800 billion. It is expensive for them. It is all right to India, if that is what it takes to pull them to the ground.

 

[Bleh]

Now with planned F-35 purchase, the Pakistani psyche has been fully damaged.

There is no plan F-35 purchase... it was it was stated that India eventually maybe might get offered the F-35.
Unless you hear news it's replacing the F-21 & SH-18 in MRFA, there's no F-35 being offered to India. It's those only.

If we buy then like good vasals, the lord wil consider it.

 

[Hari Sud]

There is no plan F-35 purchase... it was it was stated that India eventually maybe might get offered the F-35.
Unless you hear news it's replacing the F-21 & SH-18 in MRFA, there's no F-35 being offered to India. It's those only.

If we buy then like good vasals, the lord wil consider it.

May be or may be not. It is the Pakistani over confidence which has been damaged with even offer to purchase.

 

[Brood Father]

Rafale and F35B variant does not have foldable wings so wont fit into the lift. But Rafale is widest on posterior side hence it can hang its butt outside the life unlike F35B.


You are again jumping into thread about which you don't have a clue about.

Define in percentage of parts/cost wise or don't make generic statement.

I agree this might be radical and difficult but could solve a lot of problems for navy and IAF

What about IAF do with only 36 jets ? OTOH if IAF gets substantial F35 , that could be mainstay tip of spear and in the meantime they can induct Tejas Mk2 and AMCA
Navy however could fill it's gap with Rafales and could then focus on RnD on fifth gen deck based fighter

 

[ArjunMK1A]

If IAF is so eager with F35, should we just take Rafales from IAF , modify them and give those to Navy ?
IAF can have a bigger fleet of F35 in that way with capex saved in Rafale-M purchase.
I guess it shouldn't cost more than 1.2B$ to convert AF Rafale to Marine, ~35M each.
@BON PLAN what do you think about the commonalities between AF rafale and Marine rafale.

Need to swap the Entire wing structure. May be an easy work. But next part is to replace the undercarriage of M variant.

Again need to see these kind of modifications.

The closest is SU-27/30 to J-16. The former is all metal version compared to Chinese version which has significant composite body.