Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Spitfire IX]

GE F414 Length: 391cm
GE F414 Width 89 cm

Eurojet EJ200 Length: 398 cm
Eurojet EJ200 Width: 74 cm

The Eurofighter project needed an engine. Eurojet was set up, tasked with designing an engine whose thrust could be increased (a) by 20% - EJ220 (b) by 30% - EJ230. It is a shame that 10-15 years ago India did not make a contract with Eurojet to develop the EJ220 or EJ230. Nominally those would have produced 108kN or 117 kN thrust and would have suited the power requirements of Tejas Mk2 through to AMCA.

Nothing concrete has appeared from 10 years talking to GE, SAFRAN and RR about creating an engine suitable for AMCA. Might it be time to talk to Eurojet? Since the EJ200 was designed with an increase in thrust in mind, a more powerful engine might be designed, built and tested in years less time and at lesser cost than an engine from the OEM's mentioned.

PS I spotted a report claiming that SAAB is interested in offering Gripen E with EJ230, presumably to avoid the US blocking Gripen E exports


View: https://youtu.be/kInuoc_hO1M

 

[midnight]

GE F414 Length: 391cm
GE F414 Width 89 cm

Eurojet EJ200 Length: 398 cm
Eurojet EJ200 Width: 74 cm

The Eurofighter project needed an engine. Eurojet was set up, tasked with designing an engine whose thrust could be increased (a) by 20% - EJ220 (b) by 30% - EJ230. It is a shame that 10-15 years ago India did not make a contract with Eurojet to develop the EJ220 or EJ230. Nominally those would have produced 108kN or 117 kN thrust and would have suited the power requirements of Tejas Mk2 through to AMCA.

Nothing concrete has appeared from 10 years talking to GE, SAFRAN and RR about creating an engine suitable for AMCA. Might it be time to talk to Eurojet? Since the EJ200 was designed with an increase in thrust in mind, a more powerful engine might be designed, built and tested in years less time and at lesser cost than an engine from the OEM's mentioned.

PS I spotted a report claiming that SAAB is interested in offering Gripen E with EJ230, presumably to avoid the US blocking Gripen E exports


View: https://youtu.be/kInuoc_hO1M

I personally want the 114 aircraft to be the Boeing eagle 2 since their 6th gen is a Boeing aircraft and will share equipment with the eagle 2 for India. I am sure the pilots from India have flow the eagle during exercises and are not completely out of touch.

We already have ge engines for Tejas, we also have the Boeing ah64, c17, ch47, p8i, lockheed c130 and american engines for the navy to name a few.

So about American strings attached to the equipment is already put to rest. So I think India can trust the US with operating the imported equipment as per their choice from them.

 

[Spitfire IX]

I personally want the 114 aircraft to be the Boeing eagle 2 since their 6th gen is a Boeing aircraft and will share equipment with the eagle 2 for India. I am sure the pilots from India have flow the eagle during exercises and are not completely out of touch.

We already have ge engines for Tejas, we also have the Boeing ah64, c17, ch47, p8i, lockheed c130 and american engines for the navy to name a few.

So about American strings attached to the equipment is already put to rest. So I think India can trust the US with operating the imported equipment as per their choice from them.

I was talking principally about finally arranging a 110 kN engine for AMCA.

 

[midnight]

I was talking principally about finally arranging a 110 kN engine for AMCA.

It's too late for that since the IAFs operate old and new, French and American equipment. Having Eurojet 230 for example will be a nightmare since GE and Safran already have engines lined-up. AMCA is already designed around GE 414s. As for mk 2 and beyond, we are working with Safran and maybe GE for the 110 KN.

 

[Spitfire IX]

It's too late for that since the IAFs operate old and new, French and American equipment. Having Eurojet 230 for example will be a nightmare since GE and Safran already have engines lined-up. AMCA is already designed around GE 414s. As for mk 2 and beyond, we are working with Safran and maybe GE for the 110 KN.

EJ200 is 4 cm longer than F414 but narrower, so EJ230 should fit AMCA without much redesign.

idrw.org today reports that RR has been selected in preference to SAFRAN or GE to create a new engine for AMCA. If India and RR can agree the details, a contract can be signed (UK government has authorised the proposed deal).

India Close to Seal $4.5 Billion 6th gen Jet Engine Initiative – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[midnight]

EJ200 is 4 cm longer than F414 but narrower, so EJ230 should fit AMCA without much redesign.

idrw.org today reports that RR has been selected in preference to SAFRAN or GE to create a new engine for AMCA. If India and RR can agree the details, a contract can be signed (UK government has authorised the proposed deal).

India Close to Seal $4.5 Billion 6th gen Jet Engine Initiative – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Safran is offering 100% tot and is co-developing the Kaveri engine with GTRE. I doubt Rolls Royce can come in since we have French equipment and collaboration as I mentioned earlier. The US is very secretive about the engine program with the public and won't share actual statistics to the media, so we won't know what they are actually doing with the IAF.

 

[randombully]

EJ200 is 4 cm longer than F414 but narrower, so EJ230 should fit AMCA without much redesign.

idrw.org today reports that RR has been selected in preference to SAFRAN or GE to create a new engine for AMCA. If India and RR can agree the details, a contract can be signed (UK government has authorised the proposed deal).

India Close to Seal $4.5 Billion 6th gen Jet Engine Initiative – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

We are already going for GE f414 for tejas mk2.
If we opt for EJ200/E230 it would mean less locally produced/assembled F414 engines in india( about 40 amca mk1 are expected to be produced, so 80 engines could be lost) which can make GE more reluctant for local production % or charge higher per engine.

Going for EJ200/230 for amca mk1 for reducing american dependency only works If ej200/ej220/ej230 is also selected for tejas mk2.

If you want ej230 for increased thrust over GE f414 IN6 , GE f414 EPE engine also exist with 116kN max thrust.
And proposed EPE varient has made lot more real life progress than proposed EJ220 or EJ230.
Though tech for all three varients are already present with their respective companies.


And GE414 IN6 already has T/W of 9.

While f22 F119 has T/W of 10.1


F35's F135 has T/W 11.6
( B varient of engine is has additional rotating nozzel which increases the weight of engine a lot, but is not counted as it's a extra modification weight).

GE F414 EPE is claimed to give 116KN max thrust while maintain identical dimension and weight as GE F414 INS6.
So T/W of GE F414 EPE will be 10.6
So in 5th gen engine category in terms of T/W, while still using 4th gen architecture.
The materials that will be used F141 EPE will not be inferior to the ones Used in F135, I would say even more better materials to achieve this level of T/W using 4th gen architecture.

 

[Spitfire IX]

We are already going for GE f414 for tejas mk2.
If we opt for EJ200/E230 it would mean less locally produced/assembled F414 engines in india( about 40 amca mk1 are expected to be produced, so 80 engines could be lost) which can make GE more reluctant for local production % or charge higher per engine.

Going for EJ200/230 for amca mk1 for reducing american dependency only works If ej200/ej220/ej230 is also selected for tejas mk2.

If you want ej230 for increased thrust over GE f414 IN6 , GE f414 EPE engine also exist with 116kN max thrust.
And proposed EPE varient has made lot more real life progress than proposed EJ220 or EJ230.
Though tech for all three varients are already present with their respective companies.


And GE414 IN6 already has T/W of 9.

While f22 F119 has T/W of 10.1


F35's F135 has T/W 11.6
( B varient of engine is has additional rotating nozzel which increases the weight of engine a lot, but is not counted as it's a extra modification weight).

GE F414 EPE is claimed to give 116KN max thrust while maintain identical dimension and weight as GE F414 INS6.
So T/W of GE F414 EPE will be 10.6
So in 5th gen engine category in terms of T/W, while still using 4th gen architecture.
The materials that will be used F141 EPE will not be inferior to the ones Used in F135, I would say even more better materials to achieve this level of T/W using 4th gen architecture.

To me F414 EPE would be the neatest solution for AMCA Mk2 but that extra thrust will reduce engine life, won't it? Is it ready to go or is there more development to be paid for?

As far as I know no work to develop EJ220 or EJ230 has been done because no Eurofighter user asked for a more powerful engine than EJ200.

 

[randombully]

To me F414 EPE would be the neatest solution for AMCA Mk2 but that extra thrust will reduce engine life, won't it? Is it ready to go or is there more development to be paid for?

As far as I know no work to develop EJ220 or EJ230 has been done because no Eurofighter user asked for a more powerful engine than EJ200.

Reduce life?
Na, it's not a brute force upgrade.
It's new varient based on the latest materials ge has developed.
But I was thinking of using epe on amca mk1 to give it similar performance as mk2(with indigenous engine)

 

[BON PLAN]

Delivery after 2030+?
F5 varient?

delivery ? I don't know.
standard : probably F4 with all ready for F5.

 

[Satish Sharma Ji]

delivery ? I don't know.
standard : probably F4 with all ready for F5.

The f5 avionics suit is no where to be seen. They were supposed to draw funding for fcas avionics suit development and from there rafale was supposed to inherit. How's that going ?

 

[BON PLAN]

Even if deal is signed today what are the key option
Rafale with that backlog order we would be lucky to recieve first delivery by 2031
F 35 highly unlikely and means full access to american
Su 57 i say we let Russian induct it in good number first and its performance doesn't satisfy IAF for now
So yeah our best option is not import but Tejas mk2 and upgraded su 30 ASAP
And to improve Tejas mk1a production

A jet is always made on order. A LM, Eurojet, Boeing, SAAB jet lead time is always at least of 36 months (except some very special case as the first Rafale for Egypt, or some F16 when USAF ordered it by dozens), so mid 2025 + 36 months = mid 2028 at best.

Rafale production rate will be 3/month this year.
A 4/month is in the pipe. So some slots will be cleared, even so early than 2028.

I see a potential indian line for saying 90 C & B model and the latest M, but there will be a time to create the line and train the workers and technicians, and 24 C & B and the first M all built in France to urge the delivery.

 

[BON PLAN]

The f5 avionics suit is no where to be seen. They were supposed to draw funding for fcas avionics suit development and from there rafale was supposed to inherit. How's that going ?

All the Rafale std were delivered on time, on spec, on budget. Including the special ISE for India.
Why not with F5?
F5 before Trump decided to reduce USA involvment in NATO was scheduled for 2030. First orders placed in october 2024. So it is well defined (but for some top brass only, as UAE, India....).

https://www.defense.gouv.fr/actualites/rafale-standard-f5-premieres-commandes-notifiees-aux-industriels

It is more than possible that this schedule will be shortened.

 

[BON PLAN]

So about American strings attached to the equipment is already put to rest. So I think India can trust the US with operating the imported equipment as per their choice from them.

Ask UAE if they were free to use F16-60 over Lybian aerospace ?
It is one key of their decision to order 80 Rafale end not (so far) F-35.