Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Spitfire IX]

Japan taps India for next-gen fighter to rival China’s J-36

Japan invites India to join GCAP, a next-gen fighter jet project with UK and Italy, aiming to rival China’s J-36 and reshape Indo-Pacific security alliances.

bulgarianmilitary.com

Q1 What does India have to offer to the programme apart from funds?

Q2 Where would joining GCAP leave AMCA?

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Japan taps India for next-gen fighter to rival China’s J-36

Japan invites India to join GCAP, a next-gen fighter jet project with UK and Italy, aiming to rival China’s J-36 and reshape Indo-Pacific security alliances.

bulgarianmilitary.com

Q1 What does India have to offer to the programme apart from funds?

Q2 Where would joining GCAP leave AMCA?

A1: India has to offer cheap-cheap labour production costs. Remember what the Frogs want from us ? they want us to buy one million Rafales, then open production facility in Desh, which is assembly plant + non critical tech manufaturings and then build it there, plus then build more for the world from there.

Japan+britain etc wants the same thing. They want to use cheap cheap Indian labour for screwdriver-giri and cut cost of production by 20-25%.

A2 : Dunno. Probably screwed coz Indian babus lack vision for indegenous military might.

 

[bruno]

A1: India has to offer cheap-cheap labour production costs. Remember what the Frogs want from us ? they want us to buy one million Rafales,

100 for a full assembly line. But with only 36 you already got something.

then open production facility in Desh, which is assembly plant + non critical tech manufaturings

Non critical ? Why ? From where this idea come from when France offer you to built a full engine, or the elements like radar transceivers.

and then build it there, plus then build more for the world from there.

For India fort start it will be good.

Japan+britain etc wants the same thing. They want to use cheap cheap Indian labour for screwdriver-giri and cut cost of production by 20-25%.

I don't know if it is possible... Even if it is the plan. When countries invest in that kind of project they don't like to give work to other countries.

A2 : Dunno. Probably screwed coz Indian babus lack vision for indegenous military might.

You are late in technology acquisition... India won't fill the gap the day after tomorrow...

 

[maximus777]

This is straight out of modi’s - Aaj Rafale hote toh after Pulwama

Yes, IAF and supreme leader wasted 11+ years pussyfooting on the MRFA.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

100 for a full assembly line. But with only 36 you already got something.

Non critical ? Why ? From where this idea come from when France offer you to built a full engine, or the elements like radar transceivers.

For India fort start it will be good.

I don't know if it is possible... Even if it is the plan. When countries invest in that kind of project they don't like to give work to other countries.

You are late in technology acquisition... India won't fill the gap the day after tomorrow...

1. No nation transfers crtiical jet technologies
2. Safran has clear-cut NOT committed to sharing hot section fan technology - the main keystone technology for a jet engine.
3. We dont care if we are late to technology acquisition. we dont want to be reliant on foreign acquisition and all we care is to study your platform to reverse its technology as much as possible, while filling a stop-gap need. because no import military has ever won a conflict vs an indegenously equipped military in the industrial age.
Quantity is a quality of its own as the Russians proved vs German technology.

 

[bruno]

1. No nation transfers crtiical jet technologies
2. Safran has clear-cut NOT committed to sharing hot section fan technology - the main keystone technology for a jet engine.
3. We dont care if we are late to technology acquisition. we dont want to be reliant on foreign acquisition and all we care is to study your platform to reverse its technology as much as possible, while filling a stop-gap need. because no import military has ever won a conflict vs an indegenously equipped military in the industrial age.
Quantity is a quality of its own as the Russians proved vs German technology.

I understand that is better for you to rely on your own technology. But I don't know what are your sources. Your own air chief marshal told in January that there is no point to spend money and time to developp technologies own by many others countries and it will be much smart for India to go for a big buy with a foreign partner in order to buy those technologies under a big Tot rather to develop them all. And in parallel, to go for R&D only for the ones that nobody will share to you, because there are too sensitive, or because there are niche technology, or because nobody have it yet.

And it match with what I understood earlier. During initial MMRCA, almost 100% of the plane should have been built in India. Not only assembly. So I'm surprised to ear that something has been refused from France, like hot part. Do you have a source for that ?

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

What is the future of IAF? I mean after we all are dead surely IAF would reach space, decode anti-gravity UFO tech.
What do you guys make of this:

 

[Corvus Splendens]

What is the future of IAF? I mean after we all are dead surely IAF would reach space, decode anti-gravity UFO tech.
What do you guys make of this:

View attachment 33171

High altitude isn't the yippee this guy thinks it is, when the horizon can't save your ass from getting lit up by a monster radar. If you want a hypersonic fighter, it's more economical to just fire a longer ranged hypersonic missile or forward/stage assets closer to target. The MiG-41 is pure snake oil right now. GCAP's project goals have been scrapped and rewritten so many times, it's hard to say if it'll even get made. Knowing Japan, they'll skedaddle soon enough citing cost overruns, maybe get an engine from US and go with their own design. I have no retort for this guy's chinese space fighter, other than we should ask the Japanese for help.
​

 

[GaudaNaresh]

I understand that is better for you to rely on your own technology. But I don't know what are your sources. Your own air chief marshal told in January that there is no point to spend money and time to developp technologies own by many others countries and it will be much smart for India to go for a big buy with a foreign partner in order to buy those technologies under a big Tot rather to develop them all. And in parallel, to go for R&D only for the ones that nobody will share to you, because there are too sensitive, or because there are niche technology, or because nobody have it yet.

And it match with what I understood earlier. During initial MMRCA, almost 100% of the plane should have been built in India. Not only assembly. So I'm surprised to ear that something has been refused from France, like hot part. Do you have a source for that ?

Our air marshall is wrong.
Simple.
As i said, no country that is import military has EVER defeated an indgenous military in industrial era war.
EVER.
There is no ToT on your hot section of the engine. It is literally the one thing we asked safran and they refused to. With hot section ToT, we dont need F404, Cavery is sufficient, as its lack is in the hot section.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Paxtan also will be getting hands on their 5th gen stealth aircraft by 2029-30.. we will be getting F35 in the same timeline.. keep in mind USA is manufacturing 190 f35 per year this year with plans to increase to 240 per year by end of this decade.

Nd lol F35 nd AMCA is not even in same weight class.. how it's a direct competitor? Flawed logic..

F35 MTOW- 31,800 kg (Heavy)
AMCA MTOW- 25,000 kg

So F35 isn't even in competition with AMCA.. 40 F35 won't kill AMCA lol

IAF knows this Govt knows this.. requirements exists..

Heck even broke A$$ Paxtan aims to operate two stealth aircrafts
J 35 by 2029-30
Kaan by 2035

Buying an F 35 involves buying the entire specialized infrastructure and MRO facilities with 0 IPR or access to source code not to mention their garbage ALIS diagnostic software.

The cost for a measly 40 F 35A(I) would easily be $8-9 billion with India having to sign additional agreements limiting our access to Russian equipment.

The delivery of the jets won't start before 2030. It therefore seems likely that IAF will go for 40 additional Rafale F4 and upgrade older Rafale to F4 as well. This is because the Navy will also operate 26 Rafale M and will allow for commonalty of logistics and spares.

India has made sure to secure the production line of Rafale here to ensure we don't face the same spares problem as the Mirage 2000s a decade down the line.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Buying an F 35 involves buying the entire specialized infrastructure and MRO facilities with 0 IPR or access to source code not to mention their garbage ALIS diagnostic software.

The cost for a measly 40 F 35A(I) would easily be $8-9 billion with India having to sign additional agreements limiting our access to Russian equipment.

The delivery of the jets won't start before 2030. It therefore seems likely that IAF will go for 40 additional Rafale F4 and upgrade older Rafale to F4 as well. This is because the Navy will also operate 26 Rafale M and will allow for commonalty of logistics and spares.

India has made sure to secure the production line of Rafale here to ensure we don't face the same spares problem as the Mirage 2000s a decade down the line.

@MarDePopins you can refer to my thoughts on this subject based on an older post of mine.

Option 1 : Import F 35

Lets say India negotiates (begs) US to allow purchase of 36 F 35 aircraft throughout 2025-26. Finally US agrees and in 2026-27 a deal is signed for ~$8 bn.

The deal will include US weapons like AIM 120 C7, JDAM, etc and WILL be subject to US rules and regulations regarding intended usage. Also, India will have ZERO access to IP and will need to reply on US contractors to service these aircraft.

The first aircraft will be delivered 4-6 years after the signing of the deal (2030-2031). Then the rest over the next two years (2032-2033).

Option 2 : Persist on AMCA

By comparison, AMCA rollout is scheduled for 2026, which is reasonable given titanium bulkhead cutting and other small scale part manufacturing started in 2022.

First flight, depending on how many subsystems are installed in the AMCA will be 2027-2028. Then add another 3 years of tests (weapon-radar integration, certification, flight envelope tests, manuals, troubleshooting, compatibility) and by 2030-31 you have a somewhat ready IOC capable fighter.

Another 2 years 2032-2033 you have a FOC capable AMCA. If we sign GE F414 engine deal in 2025 (hopefully) and it takes 2 years to build the facility while we import some GE F414 engines as part of the deal, then by 2027 facility is ready. By 2028 domestic assembly of GE F414 commences and by 2031-32 everything is in place for AMCA to be mass produced and inducted.

Conclusion :

In both cases, India won't receive a 5th generation fighter before 2031-32 at the earliest. Bear in mind that it will take another 2-3 years to have at least 2-3 operationally ready squadrons of the F 35/AMCA so ~2034.

India needs to produce more SU 30 MKI, mass produce Tejas MK2, finish the 180 Tejas MK1A and missile-radar max until the mid 2030s.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Buying an F 35 involves buying the entire specialized infrastructure and MRO facilities with 0 IPR or access to source code not to mention their garbage ALIS diagnostic software.

The cost for a measly 40 F 35A(I) would easily be $8-9 billion with India having to sign additional agreements limiting our access to Russian equipment.

The delivery of the jets won't start before 2030. It therefore seems likely that IAF will go for 40 additional Rafale F4 and upgrade older Rafale to F4 as well. This is because Navu will also operate 26 Rafale M and will allow for commonalty of logistics and spares.

India has made sure to secure the production line of Rafale here to ensure we don't face the same spares problem as the Mirage 2000s a decade down the line.

for the 1 millionth time : buying F-35 requires not owning specific stealth-jet & missile detector radar & air defence system of the direct competitor who will supply the ENEMIES of F-35 : Russia and China. Which is what S-400 is.

Remember Turkey got flat out kicked from the F35 program for even TALKING of owning S-400 and remains booted to this day despite not even signing any sort of deal. And Turkey is a NATO member.
And you think we, who own and operate S-400 will get F35 as non-nato member ?

AINT GONNA HAPPEN.
So just stop jerking off to F35 fantasies.

PS: If you care to know WHY s-400 operator will never get F35 and a patriot system operator will never get J20, its very simple - these are missile & stealth tracking systems who struggle to track enemy stealth- because they do not have specific data on them from THEIR radar. You know, where you fly around a plane in the radar's range and screw around with the radar settings and plane flies at 1 million different angles TILL YOU SPOT SOMETHING ? yeah. that.
Every nation does this with their stealth & missile AD radars - US flies around its F-22 and F-35 around its own patriot batteries to find these chinks in the armor- so they can fix it.

THE LAST THING any stealth plane maker wants, is some asshole to do this with the ENEMY AD radar, find the chinks in the armor and file it away secretly to blow you up in combat one day coz now they know the chink in your armor that you dont know you had. And you cant smooth out what an S-400 radar will find by doing this by simply dancing around with a patriot battery radar- remember, different radars, different settings and apertures and gain functions and all that math crazyness.

 

[Nibbler]

for the 1 millionth time : buying F-35 requires not owning specific stealth-jet & missile detector radar & air defence system of the direct competitor who will supply the ENEMIES of F-35 : Russia and China. Which is what S-400 is.

Remember Turkey got flat out kicked from the F35 program for even TALKING of owning S-400 and remains booted to this day despite not even signing any sort of deal. And Turkey is a NATO member.
And you think we, who own and operate S-400 will get F35 as non-nato member ?

AINT GONNA HAPPEN.
So just stop jerking off to F35 fantasies.

PS: If you care to know WHY s-400 operator will never get F35 and a patriot system operator will never get J20, its very simple - these are missile & stealth tracking systems who struggle to track enemy stealth- because they do not have specific data on them from THEIR radar. You know, where you fly around a plane in the radar's range and screw around with the radar settings and plane flies at 1 million different angles TILL YOU SPOT SOMETHING ? yeah. that.
Every nation does this with their stealth & missile AD radars - US flies around its F-22 and F-35 around its own patriot batteries to find these chinks in the armor- so they can fix it.

THE LAST THING any stealth plane maker wants, is some asshole to do this with the ENEMY AD radar, find the chinks in the armor and file it away secretly to blow you up in combat one day coz now they know the chink in your armor that you dont know you had. And you cant smooth out what an S-400 radar will find by doing this by simply dancing around with a patriot battery radar- remember, different radars, different settings and apertures and gain functions and all that math crazyness.

Turkey didn't get f35 because it's turkey. S400 was an excuse.

If the plane is immediately invalidated by simply being around enemy SAMs then it's a pretty useless plane.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Turkey didn't get f35 because it's turkey. S400 was an excuse.

If the plane is immediately invalidated by simply being around enemy SAMs then it's a pretty useless plane.

No, its not 'immediately invalidated' by doing a 5 min bombing run vs enemy SAM.

Its invalidated when you take an F35 and turn it into an onlyfan model, exposing every crack and hole at every angle you can find and the camera is the S-400 radar and do this for hours and hours and hours at end.
Every stealth operator does this with their own damn missle & stealth spotting radar systems - so they can find the flaw in their design and plug that hole.
What NO stealth operator wants, is for their bird to be the onlyfan model for the ENEMY CAMERA.

 

[bruno]

Our air marshall is wrong.
Simple.
As i said, no country that is import military has EVER defeated an indgenous military in industrial era war.
EVER.
There is no ToT on your hot section of the engine. It is literally the one thing we asked safran and they refused to. With hot section ToT, we dont need F404, Cavery is sufficient, as its lack is in the hot section.

Your Air Marshall is wrong ? Just like that... Without justifying anything ? You're so sure about your assertion that you throw up the full statement of your own air force chief ? For me his statement was, on a contrary, very logical and makes sense in the context.

You told that SAFRAN REFUSED to transfer the technology for hot part. My questions will be very simple :

- Do you have a source to prove your statment ? On my side I see official communications telling that Safran is ready to transfer 100% of the technology for engine.
- If your statement is true, what is behind this refusal ? A money or contractual issue ? Or the willing to not makes TOT on sensitive stuff ? Because if true, this is against the official communication, so...

I'm waiting for your answer but it seems that you are making confusion between the reality of facts and your personnal opinion.

 

[shade2]

Your Air Marshall is wrong ? Just like that... Without justifying anything ? You're so sure about your assertion that you throw up the full statement of your own air force chief ? For me his statement was, on a contrary, very logical and makes sense in the context.

You told that SAFRAN REFUSED to transfer the technology for hot part. My questions will be very simple :

- Do you have a source to prove your statment ? On my side I see official communications telling that Safran is ready to transfer 100% of the technology for engine.
- If your statement is true, what is behind this refusal ? A money or contractual issue ? Or the willing to not makes TOT on sensitive stuff ? Because if true, this is against the official communication, so...

I'm waiting for your answer but it seems that you are making confusion between the reality of facts and your personnal opinion.

The entire UN Airforce is lusting for your planes, earlier it was the Mirage and then it was Rafale.
That is their "angle" behind the "buy from 5 places, develop niche technologies ourselves" meme.

Basically, UN Airforce wants the Rafale
France and Dassault want to sell India more Rafales
The India Govt however just sat on the file for 11 years because it would be too expensive to buy 100+ planes in one go, jeopardizing other budgets which are necessary to win elections.

 

[bruno]

The entire UN Airforce is lusting for your planes, earlier it was the Mirage and then it was Rafale.
That is their "angle" behind the "buy from 5 places, develop niche technologies ourselves" meme.

Excuse me, what is "UN airforce" ?

Basically, UN Airforce wants the Rafale
France and Dassault want to sell India more Rafales
The India Govt however just sat on the file for 11 years because it would be too expensive to buy 100+ planes in one go, jeopardizing other budgets which are necessary to win elections.

Buying 100+ planes with a local production is less expensive in fact that buying them on the shelf.
Because you don't pay them all at the order, but just a percentage of what is being made from all the planes which will come directly from France. Then, all the planes which will be built locally will be paid year after year, during the delivery.
But with 40 planes, less will be produced locally, and the deposit will be more important.

 

[shade2]

Excuse me, what is "UN airforce" ?


Buying 100+ planes with a local production is less expensive in fact that buying them on the shelf.
Because you don't pay them all at the order, but just a percentage of what is being made from all the planes which will come directly from France. Then, all the planes which will be built locally will be paid year after year, during the delivery.
But with 40 planes, less will be produced locally, and the deposit will be more important.

Not arguing in theoretical, only what i've observed from 10 years of govt sitting on the file for bulk rafale purchase.
From what i have observed their scheme was to keep buying 36 Rafales but UN Airforce insisted on the whole 114 with local production.

To add to the whole govt being a miser and not willing to spend, there was the Rafale "scam" drama by the opposition that gave the govt cold feet over additional 36( 2 squadrons ) purchases off the shelf.

There is movement now with the Rafale-M deal for the navy and dassault saying they will open a facility here to produce rafale fuselages.
There are also rumors of 40 rafale being purchased off the shelf for the Airforce

 

[bruno]

Not arguing in theoretical, only what i've observed from 10 years of govt sitting on the file for bulk rafale purchase.
From what i have observed their scheme was to keep buying 36 Rafales but UN Airforce insisted on the whole 114 with local production.

To add to the whole govt being a miser and not willing to spend, there was the Rafale "scam" drama by the opposition that gave the govt cold feet over additional 36( 2 squadrons ) purchases off the shelf.

There is movement now with the Rafale-M deal for the navy and dassault saying they will open a facility here to produce rafale fuselages.
There are also rumors of 40 rafale being purchased off the shelf for the Airforce

Can you tell me what means "UN" Airforce ?
This is another term for Indian Air Force ?

 

[Varoon4]

Can you tell me what means "UN" Airforce ?
This is another term for Indian Air Force ?

I think "UN" refers to an Indian tendency to buy weaponry from just about anywhere in the world( hence UN, United Nations ) with the exception of one country- India itself. Pardonable exaggeration, given all the examples of cold shouldering indigenous products!